Columbus statues coming down everywhere

[Monster647 445]

Just now, myluis617 said:

Um they say Columbus' voyage to the Caribbean was a mistake, he was actually trying to sail to India and ended up in America...

So ?

Nobody knew that there was a huge land mass between Asia and Europe. That is literally the meaning of discovery, someone finding something that was unknown. How could he consciously reach a land mass nobody knew about ? 

[LilMonst3r 5,688]

3 minutes ago, Monster647 said:

So ?

Nobody knew that there was a huge land mass between Asia and Europe. That is literally the meaning of discovery, someone finding something that was unknown. How could he consciously reach a land mass nobody knew about ? 

The indigenous tribes who crossed over during the Ice Age did know it.  Did they get monuments for discovering North and South America? Oh no, we had to celebrate the idea a spanish man discovered land other people had found before him. We barely have monuments of those Native Tribes... The ones who built kingdoms are some of the few that were able to leave their mark behind. The colonizers tried their hardest to erase their existance. I call this Karma. 

[Monster647 445]

11 minutes ago, myluis617 said:

The indigenous tribes who crossed over during the Ice Age did know it.  Did they get monuments for discovering North and South America? Oh no, we had to celebrate the idea a spanish man discovered land other people had found before him. We barely have monuments of those Native Tribes... The ones who built kingdoms are some of the few that were able to leave their mark behind. The colonizers tried their hardest to erase their existance. I call this Karma. 

My comment wasn't about celebrating Columbus or not, it was about inaccuracy of that Columbus video shared that portrayed Columbus as an incompetent man who was nothing but vicious and lucky. While in reality, Columbus was a very competent navigator who discovered a new land mass that provided valuable food security and wealth to Europe that contributed to societal developments that led to Renaissance, Enlightenment, and Industrialization which are the reasons why you as an individual can express your thoughts today through internet on devices while having access to stuff like public education, healthcare etc. 

Obviously people found their way to the Americas before Columbus but Columbus is the person who discovered America in the historical continuity of modern narrative. You as a person know that Americas exist because Columbus reached it, not because Norse Vikings reached Labrador in the past, or some primitive tribes crossed the bering strait millenias ago which contributed nothing to the place of the continent in modern life or understanding (ie Columbian Exchange).

Now you can argue that Columbus was a cruel man, or his discoveries leading to decimation of native americans outweighed against the contributions of columbian exchange etc etc. That's a different argument that I said nothing about. 

[DiskoBaby 1,929]

So when are George Washington and Thomas Jefferson statues coming down?

better yet, let’s remove all men who owned slaves off of our currency. Axe Presidents’ Day and Columbus Day, destroy the Washington monument and any plantations owned by previous presidents, and demolish the White House since it was built by slaves.

#progress

[Itsbrenda 2,983]

2 hours ago, DiskoBaby said:

So when are George Washington and Thomas Jefferson statues coming down?

better yet, let’s remove all men who owned slaves off of our currency. Axe Presidents’ Day and Columbus Day, destroy the Washington monument and any plantations owned by previous presidents, and demolish the White House since it was built by slaves.

#progress

Love it.

[DiskoBaby 1,929]

10 minutes ago, Itsbrenda said:

Love it.

Ikr go all out or go home

[Ziggy 14,133]

5 hours ago, Bobbylon said:

Americans actin like they’re not also the ones that came here and robbed all of the native americans and killed them. Like america is made up of immigrant people and most of them aren’t indiands so why the hell to they destroy something when they’re also the ones that live in the land that should be indians in the first place

...but what would you have them do? This is an effort to do right and stop honoring a despicable man. It’s not the *biggest* gesture, sure, but it’s something. It’s not like they can just “go back to where they came from”

[KNJ 4,313]

5 hours ago, Monster647 said:

 

Regardless though, none of that decreases the importance of Columbus. It was Columbus' voyages that charted the routes to the lands that were shortly identified as a completely new land mass by following expeditioners. It is an appalling argument that a man who could successfully navigate a trip across atlantic ocean and be able to come back without any modern navigational tools or a power other than wind and ocean currents to guide his vessels was an incompetent buffoon. 

 

. 

4 hours ago, Monster647 said:

My comment wasn't about celebrating Columbus or not, it was about inaccuracy of that Columbus video shared that portrayed Columbus as an incompetent man who was nothing but vicious and lucky. While in reality, Columbus was a very competent navigator who discovered a new land mass that provided valuable food security and wealth to Europe that contributed to societal developments that led to Renaissance, Enlightenment, and Industrialization which are the reasons why you as an individual can express your thoughts today through internet on devices while having access to stuff like public education, healthcare etc. 

Obviously people found their way to the Americas before Columbus but Columbus is the person who discovered America in the historical continuity of modern narrative. You as a person know that Americas exist because Columbus reached it, not because Norse Vikings reached Labrador in the past, or some primitive tribes crossed the bering strait millenias ago which contributed nothing to the place of the continent in modern life or understanding (ie Columbian Exchange).

Now you can argue that Columbus was a cruel man, or his discoveries leading to decimation of native americans outweighed against the contributions of columbian exchange etc etc. That's a different argument that I said nothing about. 

Ok let's not go crazy. He did it for money. He WAS lucky to have found land before starving and he WAS a cruel bastard when he got there. Like most Europeans, he picked a direction, sailed until he found land then proceeded to rape, plunder, enslave and decimate said land and people. 
"But his discovery profoundly contributed to European growth!" Great...for the Europeans, I guess. Cuz what the rest of the world could do for Europe, so they could achieve greatness, is the only story that matters right? Columbus, and all colonizers really, didn't just take notes and go back home. They routinely slaughtered and enslaved entire indigenous populations wherever they went.

THIS is the argument. THIS is the problem with all these statues.

Why are we celebrating monsters?

Why are we idolizing men whose legacies, we've conveniently forgotten,  are soaked in the blood of millions of people? People/civilizations/continents that have never recovered from what was done to them.

In the US there are numerous landmarks, school, streets, statues, and many Italo-American organizations built on the myth of this "great" man that "discovered" America. He has a his own holiday filled with parades that double as an Italian heritage day across the US.

Why??? Amerigo Vespucci was the Italian that explored the American continents! Hence his namesake. And he did it without obliterating populations! 

 

[Gagaloo911 12,959]

Christopher Columbus is a monster and a child rapist. Idgaf if he navigated to America and was the first white man to discover it.

You are a deplorable and despicable individual to support him and defend him and symbols of him when we know the atrocities he committed.

Period.

[Biggest Fan 988]

6 hours ago, KanyeWest said:

Great. Now get rid of the founding fathers statues, all racists and slave owners 

That would be a such a MOVE in history

[PartySick 173,133]

6 hours ago, KanyeWest said:

Great. Now get rid of the founding fathers statues, all racists and slave owners 

Idk if I'd be ok with that

I mean, I also don't know if I'd care enough to speak out against it but let's just worry about tearing down statues that were built spitefully (confederate statues).

Totally apathetic about the Columbus statues  the guy didn't do much. His most touted achievement was "discovering America" but people have been living here since the last ice age

[KNJ 4,313]

7 hours ago, Bobbylon said:

Americans actin like they’re not also the ones that came here and robbed all of the native americans and killed them. Like america is made up of immigrant people and most of them aren’t indiands so why the hell to they destroy something when they’re also the ones that live in the land that should be indians in the first place

What is major about this moment is that a lot of allies are becoming accomplices in helping right ALL the wrongs.Communities of all colors are showing up and fighting for each other. 

If you clicked on the link I posted you'd see that the BLM and Powhatan people were protesting as one

22 minutes ago, Biggest Fan said:

7 hours ago, KanyeWest said:

Great. Now get rid of the founding fathers statues, all racists and slave owners 

That would be a such a MOVE in history

They ain't ready 

[Monster647 445]

1 hour ago, KNJ said:

Ok let's not go crazy. He did it for money. He WAS lucky to have found land before starving 

Everybody literally does everything for some sort of power including money. That's not an argument. African chieftains sold other Africans into Atlantic Slavery for money and European goods too. 

Rest is factually incorrect. He was an expert in sailing. There is no recorded precedent of sailing to Caribbeans from Europe and successfully sailing back before Columbus. We're talking about an age where you could find yourself in Brazil instead of Cape of Good Hope if you didn't take winds or currents into account accurately. 

1 hour ago, KNJ said:

.
"But his discovery profoundly contributed to European growth!" Great...for the Europeans, I guess. Cuz what the rest of the world could do for Europe, so they could achieve greatness, is the only story that matters right? Columbus,

Thanks to that European growth, you get to express your opinion without persecution. Thanks to that European growth, you get to that through computers and internet. Thanks to that European growth, you and I get to most likely not die as infants. Thanks to that European growth, you and I got to have a public education curriculum where we get to learn about stuff like this without needing to belong to a privileged group of aristocrats. 

1 hour ago, KNJ said:

Amerigo Vespucci was the Italian that explored the American continents! Hence his namesake. And he did it without obliterating populations! 

Vespucci was a merchant before he became a navigator. He even famously funded one of Columbus' voyages. He got into the "business" of exploration also for money/riches/power after Columbus spread that he found lands rich with pearl. You're not talking about individuals who were of opposing ideologies or moral standards. If Columbus is your Hitler, then Vespucci is your Himmler. 

 

THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT I AM DENYING THEIR BLOODY LEGACIES. But truth is truth regardless. Despite their bloody legacies, discovery and colonization of Americas by Europeans is important in rise of European civilization that gave birth to the ideas and fruits of those ideas that make our lives so much better than our ancestors in every way. 

Edit: I am literally from a nation that filled the role of the arch-enemy of Europe in its entirety from 15th century to 18th century...  These comments are coming from a place of reason, not chauvinistic fervor. 

[KNJ 4,313]

@Monster647.

Ok. Thank you for the history lesson.

The Columbus exaltation and idolizing still needs to stop. 

Vespucci was just an idea cuz Italian-Americans need replacement or this isn't gonna fly. Not in NYC anyway.

 

 

[KNJ 4,313]

7 hours ago, KanyeWest said:

Americans hate hearing this, especially white people who are addicted to saying "go back to your country" when it isn't even their country in the first place.

I don't hate hearing it cuz it has nothing to do with me. It dawned on me when I was little that unless you are from an indigenous people, no one has a right to tell any one where to go back to. It is a great shame what was done and is happening to our native people. SOME Americans hate hearing this cuz they're ignorant xenophobic hypocrites.

DO NOT mistake all Americans as these ignorant people. I know it's tempting.