Paprarazzi / EOG / Other Chart Run "What Ifs"

[JustJames 1,036]

3 hours ago, Floppy said:

I might get dragged for this but I wish she stuck with Monster as the original single from TFM. I feel monster would have bridged the story gap of Paparazzi and Telephone better. But that's just my stan mind talking. 

This is kind of where I always end up when thinking back to this time period. Gaga was at her peak and had the entire world in her palm waiting for her next move; she has/had so much to say regarding the concept of fame that I wish the singles and decisions she made during TF/TFM eras displayed those more.

I totally think the GP would have waited and embraced a full release and album cycle led by Bad Romance in Spring '10 that would have been able to match the success of both TF and TFM even if she had continued to promote TF through 'Paparazzi' -- more acoustic performances alone would have drawn more of the GP in -- and a re-release that added at least 1 more fame-themed single into the mix. I've always said I wished 'The Fame' (track) and/or 'Starstruck' had been a little bit more polished and able to stand as singles to provide more context for the narrative of the era. JD, PF, and LG really had little to no connection with that, and the softer tracks of the album seemed so out of place thematically and sonically by the time VMAs had come around. A refreshed album with 'Monster' would have been a step in the right direction, even if the massive leap that BR provided was put on hold for a few more months.

If Interscope was nervous about TEOG's viability as a single, why did they switch MTN out of the lead spot? They weren't nervous about releasing 'Judas' near Easter Sunday as the 2nd single? If TEOG was risky, what songs did they think were going to work? I love BTW as a body of work, but MTN, BTW, and TEOG are the dominant single-worthy anthems that carry it, and that the potential of swinging the era's aura from negative to positive via TEOG was diminished by its sloppy rollout is a total mess.

@holy scheisse I think I am going  to do a Part II to this topic beginning with the pre-ARTPOP phase since I am loving the replies here and have a lot of questions/comments about what went down after BTW era finished.

[Floppy 7,951]

25 minutes ago, JustJames said:

This is kind of where I always end up when thinking back to this time period. Gaga was at her peak and had the entire world in her palm waiting for her next move; she has/had so much to say regarding the concept of fame that I wish the singles and decisions she made during TF/TFM eras displayed those more.

I totally think the GP would have waited and embraced a full release and album cycle led by Bad Romance in Spring '10 that would have been able to match the success of both TF and TFM even if she had continued to promote TF through 'Paparazzi' -- more acoustic performances alone would have drawn more of the GP in -- and a re-release that added at least 1 more fame-themed single into the mix. I've always said I wished 'The Fame' (track) and/or 'Starstruck' had been a little bit more polished and able to stand as singles to provide more context for the narrative of the era. JD, PF, and LG really had little to no connection with that, and the softer tracks of the album seemed so out of place thematically and sonically by the time VMAs had come around. A refreshed album with 'Monster' would have been a step in the right direction, even if the massive leap that BR provided was put on hold for a few more months.

If Interscope was nervous about TEOG's viability as a single, why did they switch MTN out of the lead spot? They weren't nervous about releasing 'Judas' near Easter Sunday as the 2nd single? If TEOG was risky, what songs did they think were going to work? I love BTW as a body of work, but MTN, BTW, and TEOG are the dominant single-worthy anthems that carry it, and that the potential of swinging the era's aura from negative to positive via TEOG was diminished by its sloppy rollout is a total mess.

@holy scheisse I think I am going  to do a Part II to this topic beginning with the pre-ARTPOP phase since I am loving the replies here and have a lot of questions/comments about what went down after BTW era finished.

I'm really enjoying your perspective on this. Basically the single choices seemed to be made based on what would sell as opposed to picking song that actually carry the overall idea behind the body of work. In true music business fashion they played themselves. 

 

The only thing I'm struggling with is having MTN start the era over BTW. I just can't get behind that maybe because of my emotionAL ties to the era? But I do agree that BTW MTN TEOG had the potential to carry the era much better. Even Y&i as a fourth single wouldn't have been bad imo but idk where that fits in if TEOG got the video I feel it deserved with the original plans. 

[27monster27 13,465]

10 hours ago, JustJames said:

1. Paparazzi

1. 'Paparazzi,' despite its noted place in her canon, was her lowest charting single to-date at #6 and would remain as such until 'Judas' (more on that to come later). Does anyoe have data -- sales/downloads trajectories or other predictive data to make a solid claim that 'Paparazzi' was indeed still on the rise when 'Bad Romance' was dropped? Where do we think its peak would have hit? 

2. If it can't be quantified, is it consensus that it would have at at the very least gained more 'weight' as one of her biggest hits with more exposure?

3.  Would BR dropping later cause a ripple effect that would cancel out any positives of letting 'Paparazzi' climb? For me, if 'Paparazzi' had gotten to #4 -- above her previous single, 'LoveGame' -- that would have made delaying BR worth it. An upswing at that stage of an era/exposure is a sign that new music is definitely not needed, and knowing the overexposure that would come from her going nonstop from TF > TFM > BTW, milking TF with 'Paparazzi' into the fall, followed by a true re-release of the album + a final single (one of her unreleased songs like 'Freakshow' or maybe a collab remix of an 'almost-there' track like 'The Fame,' or even 'Telephone') looks like a great option to me.

4. Could 'Paparazzi' been submitted for "Best Pop Female Vocal Performane" for the 2009-2010 Grammys ('Pokerface' having been submitted, nominated, and ultimately winning 'Best Dance Recording')? 

5. Could/was 'Paparazzi' submitted for "Best Music Video" for the 2009-2010 Grammys?

1. Based on how it was charting at the time, it seem like it was rising. #4 was likely, and #3 was an optimistic possibility.

2. Most likely.

3. The main issue is that TFM and BR had to come out when they did. There is a general  rule that the sophomore effort of a celebrity should be released within a year and half of the debut album to keep up momentum. There are outliers,like Katy Perry for example, but usually not releasing the sophomore effort quickly enough can be detrimental.

4. and 5. The cutoff for submissions was August 31st, 2009. Paparazzi was released in the US on September 8th, however it was released in Ireland and the UK on July 6th, 2009. So I am not sure how that would work. Either way, Paparazzi would not have been considered for the 2011 Grammys due to the large success of singles from TFM.

10 hours ago, JustJames said:

Bad Romance / Alejandro / Dance in the Dark 

1. Were there any major blunders that were avoidable that prevented BR from charting #1? Or, was it simply bad luck with 'Empire State of Mind' and 'TikTok' co*k-blocking it?

2. Do you side with Gaga or Interscope on the 'Alejandro' vs. 'DITD' 3rd single battle? 'DITD' was my favorite immediately upon hearing TFM, and can't fathom why it a) wasn't a favorite of Gaga's or b) why it wouldn't be released as at least as a 4th single. 'Alejandro' peaked at #5 and was a sharp decline, brining negative publicity for its MV and ending her peak era on a sour note. 

3. What are the pros of releasing a song as a single in limited markets? If 'DITD' was released in some territories, why not just send it over to U.S. radio and record a MV and see how it does? Similar to ASIB ending at 'Shallow,' TFM was clearly important to Gaga and releasing only 3 singles - despite their rollouts and visuals, etc., being flawless IMO - seems like a miss. 

4. What type of success do you think 'DITD' might have achieved in terms of the charts? Would it have improved upon 'Alejandro' or dipped further? Would a full single release and MV have given Gaga an edge for "AOTY" and "Best Dance Recording" at the 2010-2011 Grammys?

1. It was simply just a bad release time.

2. Both songs had single potentially, although while DITD may seem like a better choice due to its themes, Alejandro actually brought serious themes like being in the closet into the light. I think the more serious video, though viewed as weird by the gp, was necessary.

3. Mainly to milk the era as she was busy at the time of its release, and a worldwide release with a video can be expensive.

4. Top five; it was danceable and catchy, not to mention that it still had a unique sound to it. With her success at the time and everything previously mentioned, she was pretty much guaranteed success with this song.

10 hours ago, JustJames said:

MTN / Judas / EOG

1. Are there sources for the established rumor that MTN was meant to the lead for the BTW era? Everything about its lyrics (re: her being dropped from her label etc), to its sound (does that sound like a *5th* single to you?), to it being the lead track lead me to believe that Gaga had every intention of it being the first single. 

2. Would you agre that MTN (or the majority of BTW tracks) would have likely debuted #1 based on hype/momentum alone? I wish so much it had, since the song is A+ and its MV deserved more than a rush winter release. I think MTN (#1) > BTW (#1) > EOG (#1) > You and I (#3) > Scheisse (edited; #6) > Heavy Metal Lover (#6) could be realistic; thoughts?

3. Has anyone done any kind of math to determine how 'Judas' would have done combining its first-week (3 days) with its second? #10 is super impressive for 3 days of tracking; but, what a terrible move given the negative spin it received despite that achievement.

4. Has anyone done any kind of math to determine how 'Edge of Glory' would have done if you add average numbers to its digital sales debut? The fact it debuted at #3 as a promo against 'Hair' without a MV or full radio release is incredible; this song deserves a place in the top 3 of her canon, and was a worthy successor to 'BTW' as her 4th #1. 

5. What was the official rationale for the promo releasing of EOG? What are some logical explanations for that type of move? I can't fathom how it could end with the song performing to its full potential, but maybe I am missing something. 

1. I am not sure about sources (except for a description on Genius.com), but I am pretty sure that it was in the running to be the first, then the third, but it ultimately got to be the fifth single.

2. It would have due to hype. My ideal era is like this:

BTW (#1) -> Scheisse (#2/#1) -> TEOG (#1) -> You and I (#3) -> MTN (#6) -> HML (#7)

However, the only way for something like this to work would be to stop all overexposure during the BTW era. This would include not doing unnecessary magazine covers, unneeded advertisements, and even potentially getting rid of some performances (Maybe.).

3. I am not sure, but it peaking at #10 with a boycott and only three tracking days shows how much power she had at the time. I love the song, but it definitely had a negative impact on the remaining BTW singles.

4. It easily could have been a number one song. Timing would have been key here as Katy, Adele, and Rihanna were very strong throughout 2011.

5. Promotional singles are to give a taste of the album the prior major singles haven't, so promo singles are usually pretty good. However, they definitely missed the mark by not realizing the potential of TEOG.

[Mr S 8,691]

I recall EOG only being a few points away from #1. 

Labels would submit the bigger hit to pop. So Pokerface would have gone pop and Paparazzi to dance. I dunno if she would beat Beyonce.

MTN is great and has one of the best bridges, but the chorus is weak and repetitive. It's still better than BTW but lacked some of the controversy

[JustJames 1,036]

On 2/3/2020 at 6:41 PM, Floppy said:

I'm really enjoying your perspective on this. Basically the single choices seemed to be made based on what would sell as opposed to picking song that actually carry the overall idea behind the body of work. In true music business fashion they played themselves. 

 

The only thing I'm struggling with is having MTN start the era over BTW. I just can't get behind that maybe because of my emotionAL ties to the era? But I do agree that BTW MTN TEOG had the potential to carry the era much better. Even Y&i as a fourth single wouldn't have been bad imo but idk where that fits in if TEOG got the video I feel it deserved with the original plans. 

@Mr SPokerface was submitted into the Dance category, along with The Fame (album). I didn't realize the song debuted in the U.S. that late, but had it been moved up, it being nominated in Pop would have at least helped her AOTY campaign. Similarly, even a limited release of Starstruck could have gotten her another Top 10 and a Pop Duo nom/possible win. 

--

The thing about the BTW era is that it ended with Gaga being majorly overexposed. Despite the massive hype before its release, despite the success of the title song and album, despite notching four more top 10 hits, the era was seen in hindsight as "messy" and "incohesive" and was her first era to end without a single Grammy award. 

IMO, This should have been Gaga's legacy, not TFM (which should have been the catalyst, not the peak from which she 'fell'). If we were to try and undo the harm in hindsight, you have to admit the album drop was stripped away of much of its potential buzz by the wait during which she released BTW, Judas, EOG, and Hair. 2 of her best songs had already been released (BTW, EOG), so what was there to discover with the full album in-hand? 

The singles should have been planned in a way that conveyed the sound of the album, her evolution as an artist, and that woud have allowed her to leverage the hype into both massive hits and longevity. MTN would have debuted #1 simply from the hype of Gaga releasing a new song from a new album; it had a compelling and relateable message for promo re: her being dropped from her initial label, and would have hinted at a more evolved rock-pop album.

1. Single #1 - MTN - Week 2 of 01/2011

2. Single #2 - BTW - Week 3 of 03/2011: Its dance-heavy production would have been less redundant having MTN released before; the album message and concept would have become clear through the combo of these two.

3. Album Release - Week 2 of 04/2011: Released at the peak of BTW's popularity; the 2 singles with rock+pop+dance sounds would have been intriguing, with Scheisse, EOG, You and I, HML, Bloody Mary, and more to be discovered.

4. Promo Single #1 - Hair - Week 4 of 04/2011: The versatile ballad>dance bop could have provided a boost in sales in week 3.

5. Single #3 - EOG - Week 1 of 06/2011:  Released before BTW reached the point of oversaturation, EOG would have been THE summer anthem with more of the rock-inspired sound of MTN.

6. Single #4 - You & I - Week 3 of 08/2011: Premiered at the VMAs, this single would have provided relief from the heavy production of the first 3 singles, while going even further into the rock genre.

7. Single #5 - HML/The Queen/Scheisse: The era could have ended, or it could have been extended with the re-release of the album and a 5th single which could have been anything so long as there was still an appetite. HML would have been a calm end with the heaviest rock influence; Scheisse would have hit the hardest; The Queen would have helped the re-release and stamped the era with her status as, well, The Queen.

1 full single that hadn't yet been leaked at all (as BTW chorus had been) with a fresh rock-inspired sound + the debut of the long-awaited title track just prior to the album drop would have been way more effective than BTW + Judas + Hair + EOG. Sans Judas controversy and with the gradual transition toward even more of a rock sound from MTN > BTW to EOG > You & I post-album would have told even more of that story. 

I don't see that ending worse than 1>1>3>5 (if EOG experienced a slight dip and expecting that even if a 5th single was released, it would have been just to complete the cycle and not for chart success). The acclaim and commercial success would've made it tough competition to 21 for AOTY; BTW/EOG would've been competitive in SOTY/ROTY/BPSP, and MTN may have gotten a BMV nod.