Warren confronted by voter

[Economy 53,072]

2 minutes ago, M Monstre said:

I completely understand his frustration because that must be a very difficult situation to deal with, but at the same time, if he  were to get reimburstment, then you have to ask people before  him what they feel, and then so on and so forth. At that point, it would just be an endless cycle of people asking to get their money back. That's not realistic. 

This is part of the reason I always had some reservations about student debt cancellation... Part of me supports it part of me doesn't

 

I think a partial forgiveness and maybe getting rid of interest would at least be more fair

 

Simply wipping it out makes it impossible to be fair...

 

Not to mention that if tuitions don't become free like some want, this could encourage people to not whatch their money as closely if they anticipate debt forgiveness could be done again

 

[Lion Heart 15,041]

"I didn't get help, so no one else should."

 

But to be fair, he does raise a point. 

[Economy 53,072]

13 minutes ago, Eighteen said:

yeah i think he paid for it. and he's mad because his friend who instead of saving for their kids' college had fun with the money and now won't be penalized for it (in the way of making financial sacrifices like he did for his daughter)

Yeah. I'd be upset too

 

The only way I support full elimination of student debt is if they also make tuition free (or at least much cheaper) and use forgiveness on the grounds that ppl should never have payed that much to begin with

 

If tuitions remain but they cancel debt, ppl could easily be encouraged to make more poor choices expecting in the future another round of debt forgiveness could occur

[Buddy 5,686]

[Economy 53,072]

6 minutes ago, Lion Heart said:

"I didn't get help, so no one else should."

 

But to be fair, he does raise a point. 

I think there's other ways to help that wouldn't be as unfair for ppl who sacraficed a lot to avoid or minimize student debt

 

I always found the idea of full debt forgiveness or most debt forgiveness a little too generous and of course ppl support it because ppl love the idea of a free lunch

 

Debt forgiveness could be partial, they could also eliminate interest rate (and past accumulated interest) on it so ppl only pay back the principal they borrowed. 

 

That would still help ppl out in a less expensive way that I think would still be fair

 

I don't see borrowing large amounts of money then getting off the hook as the most fair thing... Especially if you are not low income. From my understanding unless I'm wrong her cut off for student debt cancellation help goes pretty high up the income chain

[HorusRa2 5,005]

3 minutes ago, Economy said:

I think there's other ways to help that wouldn't be as unfair for ppl who sacraficed a lot to avoid or minimize student debt

 

I always found the idea of full debt forgiveness or most debt forgiveness a little too generous and of course ppl support it because ppl live the idea of a free lunch

 

Debt forgiveness could be partial, they could also eliminate interest rate (and past accumulated interest) on it so ppl only pay back the principal they borrowed. 

 

That would still help ppl out in a less expensive way that I think would still be fair

 

I don't see borrowing large amounts of money then getting off the hook as the most fair thing... Especially if you are not low income. From my understanding unless I'm wrong her cut off for student debt cancellation help goes pretty high up the income chain

Just want to push back a little bit. 

The logic of eliminating student loan debt to the people who have it is driven by a couple reasons. 

1. Black and Brown people disproportionately  carry the largest share of student loan debt due to systemic racism in our education system. I don't have the statistic on me but it would reduce the wealth disparity between white and black by a significant amount, maybe even the single largest and most effective way to do it other than reparations. This is significant because reparations isn't getting pushed by many on the left much less the center or the right. 

2. People that are drowning in this debt that they were told to get because they had to get a college education now cannot buy homes and the effects that it has on the consumer economy is tremendous. 

3. When Trump can spend 2 trillion dollars on military equipment, this country can spend nearly 1.8T in order to cancel student debt so we can move to free college tuition for public universities and investing in education. By having a more skilled and education work force, the amount spent is much less than the qualitative future gains by doing it. 

Bottom line the approach you are detailing out isn't going to do enough.The US would be wise to do this especially if we want to be competitive in the global market when our school systems aren't producing the high quality results they used to relative to other countries. 

[Economy 53,072]

9 minutes ago, HorusRa2 said:

Just want to push back a little bit. 

The logic of eliminating student loan debt to the people who have it is driven by a couple reasons. 

1. Black and Brown people disproportionately  carry the largest share of student loan debt due to systemic racism in our education system. I don't have the statistic on me but it would reduce the wealth disparity between white and black by a significant amount, maybe even the single largest and most effective way to do it other than reparations. This is significant because reparations isn't getting pushed by many on the left much less the center or the right. 

2. People that are drowning in this debt that they were told to get because they had to get a college education now cannot buy homes and the effects that it has on the consumer economy is tremendous. 

3. When Trump can spend 2 trillion dollars on military equipment, this country can spend nearly 1.8T in order to cancel student debt so we can move to free college tuition for public universities and investing in education. By having a more skilled and education work force, the amount spent is much less than the qualitative future gains by doing it. 

Bottom line the approach you are detailing out isn't going to do enough.The US would be wise to do this especially if we want to be competitive in the global market when our school systems aren't producing the high quality results they used to relative to other countries. 

Wouldn't systemic racism affect this a lot more from a work and income aspect? U can't charge ppl a different tuition based on their race can you?

 

And I agree it can help the economy but as I said I can only support FULL student debt elimination if they manage to make post secondary free or at least a lot cheaper

 

If post secondary remains expensive and act like this will only encourage ppl to not save in anticipation another round of debt forgiveness can happen a lot

 

I don't think debt forgiveness has to be 100% in order to help the aspects ur talking about. I still think that's too generous and will encourage students to think with an entitled attitude if they expect it again

 

If the do manage to change tuition costs significantly then I think dlfull debt forgiveness becomes a little less problematic

 

As much as I support more wealth redistribution and more accessible education I also think we still need to maintain a society with accountability. If u start throwing around the idea of free and debt forgiveness for everything suddenly ppl don't have a reason to be proactive and responsible anymore and society would crumble

[HorusRa2 5,005]

6 minutes ago, Economy said:

Wouldn't systemic racism affect this a lot more from a work and income aspect? U can't charge ppl a different tuition based on their race can you?

 

And I agree it can help the economy but as I said I can only support FULL student debt elimination if they manage to make post secondary free or at least a lot cheaper

 

If post secondary remains expensive and act like this will only encourage ppl to not save in anticipation another round of debt forgiveness can happen a lot

 

I don't think debt forgiveness has to be 100% in order to help the aspects ur talking about.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/all-the-ways-student-debt-is-exacerbating-racial-inequality-its-like-landing-in-quick-sand-one-black-student-says-2019-07-18

Take a glance at this. It has nothing to do with the cost of tuition necessarily from one person to another. 

But a more simplified way of answering is this. Considering the wealth gap between white and black, black students have to borrow more than white students to get the same education. And then when they get to the work place, some have harder time getting jobs and others aren't paid the same as a white person might. And so they have lower incomes and higher debts, which means their standard of living is lower, their ability to purchase homes are lower (in fact, I was listening to the head of the black caucus in nevada and there are less african american home owners today than in 1900), their ability to pay off their debt is longer, etc. etc. 

 

I agree with you that student debt cancellation and free college have to come hand in hand otherwise the debt that is cancelled is a bandaid and not a solution. 

[Economy 53,072]

7 minutes ago, HorusRa2 said:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/all-the-ways-student-debt-is-exacerbating-racial-inequality-its-like-landing-in-quick-sand-one-black-student-says-2019-07-18

Take a glance at this. It has nothing to do with the cost of tuition necessarily from one person to another. 

But a more simplified way of answering is this. Considering the wealth gap between white and black, black students have to borrow more than white students to get the same education. And then when they get to the work place, some have harder time getting jobs and others aren't paid the same as a white person might. And so they have lower incomes and higher debts, which means their standard of living is lower, their ability to purchase homes are lower (in fact, I was listening to the head of the black caucus in nevada and there are less african american home owners today than in 1900). 

 

I agree with you that student debt cancellation and free college have to come hand in hand otherwise the debt that is cancelled is a bandaid and not a solution. 

I agree with that but ur proving my point that the higher student debt is coming for a class and income issue not the education itself

 

U talked about systemic racism in the education system and I was asking what the direct connection between student debt and that would be

 

I'm not saying systemic racism can't have an impact on who has more debt but to me it seems more like a class an income thing in the work place not the education system itself

 

Even the education system can have racism but again I don't see the direct correlation that would have on higher student debt the way u worded it

 

Unless the way u worded it isn't what u meant to say

 

Also on reperations I agree education help is more effective. I can think of a million potential problems with reperations if it came in the form of direct money transfers for starters how to even calculate what's a fair amount for each individual given some are still experiencing generational ripple effects a lot more than other individuals or the fact that some have mixed ancestry etc. It goes on an on. A standard reperations would be hard to create because each black individual won't necessarily be feeling the same effects to the same degree as the general black population. It can be a lot more or a lot less on a case by case basis making it impossible to calculate a fair standard

 

At least targeted measures to help poor help whoever needs it the most regardless of how the poverty was past down

[FATCAT 60,909]

He did not come that whole way, sit in the room for an hour, stand in line for 40 minutes, to have a rational conversation. He came there to yell & make a fuss. There was no way she could have de-escalated that situation. He should be mad at the previous leaders that made and keep college tuition so high. 

Also, his friend that bought the car? there's no guarantee that a dem that will erase debt will be elected. He's basically mad at her for trying to save people.

[HorusRa2 5,005]

1 minute ago, Economy said:

I agree with that but ur proving my point that the higher student debt is coming for a class and income issue not the education itself

 

U talked about systemic racism in the education system and I was asking what the direct connection between student debt and that would be

 

I'm not saying systemic racism can't have an impact on who has more debt but to me it seems more like a class an income thing in the work place not the education system itself

 

Even the education system can have racism but again I don't see the direct correlation that would have on higher student debt the way u worded it

 

Unless the way u worded it isn't what u meant to say

I'm sure it has to do with the wording of our conversation. 

All I'm saying is that one reason we should do student debt is to reduce disparity between the white and black in our country. By eliminating the debt, we can reduce the disparity in the largest way possible that isn't political suicide. Right now, this country is not going to vote for or advocate for reparations--we should definitely do this. But in the meantime, if we can move closer to reducing the inequality in this country, we should do that too. In addition, by eliminating this debt, we can course correct by unleashing the economic buying power of an entire generation of millennials.  The government and country failed them over the course of the 90s and the 2000s. 

 

When I say that there is systemic racism in our education system, what I'm really saying is that after blacks get their college degree they start in a much more disadvantaged position economically. I get that you're trying to say that this is ultimately a class issue but what I'm trying to say is that they are related. When we address the issues of class, we are disproportionately affecting black and brown people in our country in a positive way. 

 

I understand your argument of eliminating partial or means testing the relief for student debt cancellation; however, when programs are not created with universality in mind, it makes those programs much more vulnerable to cuts (raising eligibility age, income range, the amount cancelled, etc, etc). Republicans will always go after means tested programs. It's why they go after things like food stamps. It's just harder to take away a universal benefit than it is to take away a means tested benefit. 

[pachinko 10,765]

Dad, why are you there? 

[Economy 53,072]

1 minute ago, HorusRa2 said:

I'm sure it has to do with the wording of our conversation. 

All I'm saying is that one reason we should do student debt is to reduce disparity between the white and black in our country. By eliminating the debt, we can reduce the disparity in the largest way possible that isn't political suicide. Right now, this country is not going to vote for or advocate for reparations--we should definitely do this. But in the meantime, if we can move closer to reducing the inequality in this country, we should do that too. In addition, by eliminating this debt, we can course correct by unleashing the economic buying power of an entire generation of millennials.  The government and country failed them over the course of the 90s and the 2000s. 

 

When I say that there is systemic racism in our education system, what I'm really saying is that after blacks get their college degree they start in a much more disadvantaged position economically. I get that you're trying to say that this is ultimately a class issue but what I'm trying to say is that they are related. When we address the issues of class, we are disproportionately affecting black and brown people in our country in a positive way.

 

I understand your argument of eliminating partial or means testing the relief for student debt cancellation; however, when programs are not created with universality in mind, it makes those programs much more vulnerable to cuts (raising eligibility age, income range, the amount cancelled, etc, etc). Republicans will always go after means tested programs. It's why they go after things like food stamps. It's just harder to take away a universal benefit than it is to take away a means tested benefit. 

Ok yes I agree 100% and that's what I was saying too. It's just the way u worded it, it sounded like u were trying to say something else

 

Since ur bringing up reperations, I have to say I only support some types of ideas for reperations... I definitely do not support direct money transfers if that's the type of reperations you are refering too

 

I think it's far too difficult after all these generations that have gone by since slavery and extreme racism to calculate in any fair mannor how much a person deserves on a case by cases basis

 

Some families have managed to break the cycle of poverty others have not. Some people are still very affected by their ancestors poverty that passed down by generations a lot more than other individuals are...

 

If you add the fact that after a few generations your family tree explodes in size, it makes it impossible to even calculate Ona. Family by family basis... Add race mix into the picture that's increasingly common and that becomes even more complicated

 

Theres also the issue of different types of priveledge. You can happen to be more privedged in life from a social class aspect of u happen to come from a wealtheir family (after all successful blacks exist too) even as ur not privedged from a racial aspect

 

Direct payments from a racial aspect could make other types of priveledge  not related to race worse such as a well off black person who doesn't need it

 

So I think reperations are tricky. U can't make them fair by trying to come up with a National average because individual circumstances will vary so much on a case by case basis...

 

Direct payments may have worked better if they had been done immediately after slavery but they weren't. The amount of time that has passed makes a fair calculation now impossible

 

If we focus on trying to eliminate poverty in general and get ppl at the bottom a chance, then it focuses on ppl that actually need it regardless of race... And this measure would disproportionately help POC more than whites anyway since their poverty rate is higher

 

It would have a simmilar effect of reperations for POC where poverty is passed down by generations while not giving money to any individuals of colour that have managed to escape poverty and the intent of that reperation money doesn't really apply to their individual case

[HorusRa2 5,005]

12 minutes ago, Economy said:

Ok yes I agree 100% and that's what I was saying too. It's just the way u worded it, it sounded like u were trying to say something else

 

Since ur bringing up reperations, I have to say I only support some types of ideas for reperations... I definitely do not support direct money transfers if that's the type of reperations you are refering too

 

I think it's far too difficult after all these generations that have gone by since slavery and extreme racism to calculate in any fair mannor how much a person deserves on a case by cases basis

 

Some families have managed to break the cycle of poverty others have not. Some people are still very affected by their ancestors poverty that passed down by generations a lot more than other individuals are...

 

If you add the fact that after a few generations your family tree explodes in size, it makes it impossible to even calculate Ona. Family by family basis... Add race mix into the picture that's increasingly common and that becomes even more complicated

 

Theres also the issue of different types of priveledge. You can happen to be more privedged in life from a social class aspect of u happen to come from a wealtheir family (after all successful blacks exist too) even as ur not privedged from a racial aspect

 

Direct payments from a racial aspect could make other types of priveledge  not related to race worse such as a well off black person who doesn't need it

 

So I think reperations are tricky. U can't make them fair by trying to come up with a National average because individual circumstances will vary so much on a case by case basis...

 

Direct payments may have worked better if they had been done immediately after slavery but they weren't. The amount of time that has passed makes a fair calculation now impossible

 

If we focus on trying to eliminate poverty in general and get ppl at the bottom a chance, then it focuses on ppl that actually need it regardless of race... And this measure would disproportionately help POC more than whites anyway since their poverty rate is higher

 

It would have a simmilar effect of reperations for POC where poverty is passed down by generations while not giving money to any individuals of colour that have managed to escape poverty and the intent of that reperation money doesn't really apply to their individual case

That's the million dollar question, how do you come up with what is owed given all of the complexities that exists now that also makes up for what has been done over generations. 

That said, that's why some of the policies that Bernie and Warren (although she does more means testing for my liking) address the political gridlock of reparations in a different way. It's why I love these policies. The only thing that is that while these policies help, they aren't specific to african americans only which is why many people I know are still pushing for reparations in terms of cash payments. In other words, it's fine to implement policies that help african americans, but they also help asian americans, white americans, etc. etc. The lack of specificity to just african americans in some ways doesn't address the fact that they were targeted specifically in an inhumane way. It's a very tricky situation reparations, but I think for the country to heal we have to make some sort of determination and do the right thing. In the meantime, until that's sorted out I think policies like the student debt cancellation is among the best policies we can do now that does something that helps everybody, disproportionately black and brown.

@FATCAT- while I agree the person came into the town hall with intent to be vicious, Warren could have responded in a more articulate way. It may not have been what the guy wanted to hear but I still think it could have gone better. There are multiple instances where Bernie has had to deal with similar issues including the veteran who said he wanted to commit suicide last year (with help from Bernie, and a few other legislators they were able to do something to help him out). The two situations aren't a 100% apples to apples comparison but they were both similar in how serious and tense the moments were.

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/12/10/thank-you-rescuing-me-watch-once-suicidal-veteran-offer-sanders-his-flight-jacket

[ShayCristoforo 10,607]

1 hour ago, Eighteen said:

i understand what he's saying but that's just the way the cookie crumbles. you can't give free college and then on top of that reimburse everyone who paid. i mean he should look at it this way: his daughter won't have to worry about paying for his grandchildren's college, isn't that worth it? 

Exactly. Any kind of new system has a timing issue that you just need to accept. And he keeps talking about his buddy, but maybe his buddy didn’t have kids. That’s the choice he made.