I'm sad about Gaga rejecting her past achievements

[PopThatArt 2,193]

18 hours ago, Rolodex of Hate said:

For me, and most of us, Gaga is my number one idol of all time. And this isn't a hate or 'whining' thread, because I still stan and will always stan - she has meant so much to my life. But it genuinely makes me so upset that Gaga seems to reject her past achievements.

I'm writing my dissertation on 'diva worship' and Gaga is a big part of it. Reliving her past performances (generally from 2009-2014) and reading various scholarly writings, I was nostalgic about how shocking and weird she used to be, and how much she meant to those of us that felt like freaks/like we didn't fit in. I wanted to be Gaga, I wanted her boldness and fearlessness, and her ability to be camp, over-the-top and shocking and not care about what others thought.

I was incredibly touched by her interview with Oprah. It shows how much pain she has gone through, and how much she continues to suffer on a daily basis.

What I really struggle with is how she seems to reject her past weird self, and it feels like she's given into being like everyone else. She explains how she no longer feels the need to shock, and that her past self was, for the public, 'like watching a train wreck.' I can say for certain that for many of my friends, and many of the public, the old Gaga was like a train wreck, but to us, she was nothing of the sort. She knew what she was doing, she was hardworking, a breath of fresh air in the industry and unashamed to be deliciously 'weird'.

In a way, I've always been aware that her weird/flamboyant act was a camp aesthetic to gain attention for her music. I was also generally aware that Gaga was a persona, and not necessarily her complete true self. And I have a newfound respect for her being so shocking and amazing in spite of her physical and mental health issues. That is extremely admirable and inspiring. In fact it's pretty astounding, based on what she's said in the Oprah interview. What I struggle with is the intense emotional connection I had with Gaga, how I fiercely defended her weirdness and the way she was completely different from any other pop singer of the time, but now she seems like a totally different person.

And I know Enigma is still going on, and she is still a fierce performer, perhaps with less shock tactics. I'm not expecting any solution to this, just wanted to see if anyone else feels the same, and mourns this old persona we were all besotted with.

People continue to misinterpret what Gaga is saying about her past looks and albums. She isn't saying it was deliberately done to sell records or things like that. She is saying what she has always said, she said it early in her career - she puts on crazy things to get people thinking, to get their attention and wake them up to other forms of beauty. She talked about the typical popstar persona and appearance - Britney Spears for example - on stage sauntering around half naked, boobs out, writhing in the sand, the TYPICAL popstar aesthetic that men in the industry would always demand of women they signed to "their" labels. 

Lady Gaga wanted to purposely shatter that "requirement" of popstar persona, and make men see beauty in other things. She wanted them to see the beauty in what for so long has been considered "ugly."

This is what she continues to do with Haus Labs and her new mission - to make those who feel "ugly" or those who are told are "ugly", feel beautiful, because she knows what it's like being called ugly. 

In short - since the Fame Monster, she has said, she puts on the outfits and does the things she does to make people see beauty in the atypical, to get their attention and wake them up to things that aren't considered beautiful to stop looking at the obviously beautiful women, and start looking at a woman and thinking "why is she dressing like this? There is more than meets the eye." 

[freemymindARTPOP 2,455]

to all the people defending Enigma, Enigma is not on par with her previous tours and you know that

It just seems kinda fake to give up everything she had been saying for 5 years to use 2-3 years of your career in a marketing gig in Las Vegas. 

Im not saying Gaga is fake, but the fact that she gave up everything she had been saying for 5 years to go the country shallow basic popstar route is kinda sad

But TBH Gaga predicted all of this

 

[freemymindARTPOP 2,455]

Just now, freemymindARTPOP said:

to all the people defending Enigma, Enigma is not on par with her previous tours and you know that

It just seems kinda fake to give up everything she had been saying for 5 years to use 2-3 years of your career in a marketing gig in Las Vegas. 

Im not saying Gaga is fake, but the fact that she gave up everything she had been saying for 5 years to go the country shallow basic popstar route is kinda sad

But TBH Gaga predicted all of this

 

also that she has been saying for so long that the way she dresses is who she is and that she wouldn’t dress any other way just to wear blonde hair, croptops and booty denim shorts is just so 

[Daylight Jokers 14,958]

Believe it or not, Lady Gaga is a human being. Shocking, but that's the truth.

[giskardsb 12,565]

10 hours ago, Didymus said:

- she dared to go against the grain with regards to how people thought about Lady Gaga, defying expectations at every turn, both musically and visually

 

I mean, she's still doing that, this entire thread is proof.   The issue is that many of you don't like the direction she's taken and so now you are criticizing her for doing exactly that instead of sticking with what your own expectation was.    She defied your expectations, and you don't like it, oops.

And I get what you are saying about the things you loved in Gaga in her early years.   Obviously that's a common theme around here.   I don't think any artist could keep up that level of 24/7 dedication forever, and the pressures involved along with the industry business in general  damaged her mentally and physically.   I'm not sure Gaga "wanted" to back off, but realized for her own mental health that she didn't have much choice.  I get why people mourn the loss of those early years though.

It's also impossible to deny some things we know to be true.... Gaga always wanted to be an actress, her music pre-TF ( Red and Blue and previous) was much more organically produced and leaned towards a raw rock based sound, and she was always a jazz vocalist and theater geek.    People trying to denigrate Gaga's turn towards a raw sound in Joanne and  her desire to perform Jazz and claiming it's not "real" Gaga are just denying what is obviously a core part of her personality.   

I'm not saying that TF/TFM Gaga was "fake" either, it's not one or the other.   Going musically "organic" lately does not invalidate her pop stuff, anymore than her J&P show invalidates BTW Ball.   All are authentic for their time and place in the artists life and what she is trying to express at any time.

As a fan of Gaga the vocalist, songwriter and a fan of many genres of music, I find it annoying when people want to claim that somehow I am "accepting of lowered standards" in regards to Gaga now.   There is nothing "lower standard" about ARUTW, or the songwriting on Joanne, or about her obvious love for jazz and the way she interacts with audience as a true performer at J&P.      You may disagree of course, but we all approach Gaga from a different set of values.   

 

 

 

[geusst1235 5,398]

59 minutes ago, freemymindARTPOP said:

to all the people defending Enigma, Enigma is not on par with her previous tours and you know that

It just seems kinda fake to give up everything she had been saying for 5 years to use 2-3 years of your career in a marketing gig in Las Vegas. 

Im not saying Gaga is fake, but the fact that she gave up everything she had been saying for 5 years to go the country shallow basic popstar route is kinda sad

But TBH Gaga predicted all of this

 

Both Joanne/A Star Is Born are not entirely country and instead fall somewhere in a pop, folk, rock, dance fusion with country sprinkled throughout. Besides, I don't see how experimenting with those styles is a bad thing or "basic". It seems as though Gaga can't go outside the norm and truly be experimental for herself without some fans criticizing her every move. It happened with ARTPOP to an extent, Cheek to Cheek,Joanne, ASIB,etc. Joanne is anything but basic as well imo, especially since no one was putting out material like it at that time. Even Shallow wasn't a uh conventional song you'd hear on the radio these days either.

Also I don't think she necessarily gave something up for Enigma. She is able to continue performing while not overexerting her body on a world tour. Personally, I don't see anything wrong or contradicting with that.

[Mister G 10,430]

Some of the expectations I’m gathering here are unrealistic. Be honest with yourselves for a moment; if Lady Gaga stuck to the same routine from The Fame and The Fame Monster with the Disco Stick, lavish costumes, big hair, theatrical presentations 24/7 you all would be exhausted 12 years later. After a while it becomes repetitive. If she stuck to the same aesthetics a decade later, she would have been entering some very dangerous territory of the famous diminishing returns. 
 

People were already getting exhausted throughout Born This Way with the preachiness, and the extravagant appearance. We appreciated it because of the messaging behind the album and her fashion that era. She switches up to a more casual, tone down look with a pink hat and people equate that to her neglecting her past achievements. That’s beyond unfair, because what’s past for her is prologue and she still pays tribute to her background. She couldn’t be more clear during each tour with how she acknowledges this. Even with Enigma, the second act that starts with Dance in the Dark ties into this. 

Just remember that if she stuck to the same routine each era, she would truly not withstand the test of time. Not naming other artists, but compare her to a lot of her peers and see how well they have been doing artistically sticking to the same formula nonstop.

At the end of the day you’ll either love it or hate it. Gaga will continue to explore and experiment with her style. If that’s not something people are here for, it’s not too late to stop being a fan because all I see are criticisms of her attempts if they don’t meet standards of some fans. 

[Ladle Ghoulash 25,138]

19 hours ago, Loeppke said:

If you really think about it though, the people who are willing to take risks in the way that she did are also the people who are broken in some form or another. She was probably really going through something whenever she was her most "fearless" because she probably figured she had nothing to lose, or she wasn't afraid of how people would perceive her. 

The point I'm making is that she's probably in a better place now emotionally

100% agreed. When you think about what she’s been through and her talking about experiencing psychosis following her rape and being hospitalized, it gives the prelude to the Marry the Night video a whole new context. “I’m gonna be a star. You know why? Because I have nothing left to lose.”

 

 

[Mister G 10,430]

1 hour ago, freemymindARTPOP said:

to all the people defending Enigma, Enigma is not on par with her previous tours and you know that

It just seems kinda fake to give up everything she had been saying for 5 years to use 2-3 years of your career in a marketing gig in Las Vegas. 

Im not saying Gaga is fake, but the fact that she gave up everything she had been saying for 5 years to go the country shallow basic popstar route is kinda sad

But TBH Gaga predicted all of this

 

Why would it be on par with a past tour? It’s a residency, not a tour. Even other acts like Janet and Britney have had tours that are 20 times better than a Vegas Residency.

At the end of the day, this is her career. She can preach love, equality and kindness but she’s also a business woman. She has to make a living somehow. She didn’t venture into a shallow, country basic pop star. Joanne and ASIB were anything but pure country; and I live in a state where people love country music. Joanne and ASIB are far from that. She did something different on various occasions and even ASIB had the pop influences with Heal Me, Hair Body Face and Why Did You Do That?

[JANNNNEEEEEEEE 141]

19 hours ago, Rolodex of Hate said:

For me, and most of us, Gaga is my number one idol of all time. And this isn't a hate or 'whining' thread, because I still stan and will always stan - she has meant so much to my life. But it genuinely makes me so upset that Gaga seems to reject her past achievements.

I'm writing my dissertation on 'diva worship' and Gaga is a big part of it. Reliving her past performances (generally from 2009-2014) and reading various scholarly writings, I was nostalgic about how shocking and weird she used to be, and how much she meant to those of us that felt like freaks/like we didn't fit in. I wanted to be Gaga, I wanted her boldness and fearlessness, and her ability to be camp, over-the-top and shocking and not care about what others thought.

I was incredibly touched by her interview with Oprah. It shows how much pain she has gone through, and how much she continues to suffer on a daily basis.

What I really struggle with is how she seems to reject her past weird self, and it feels like she's given into being like everyone else. She explains how she no longer feels the need to shock, and that her past self was, for the public, 'like watching a train wreck.' I can say for certain that for many of my friends, and many of the public, the old Gaga was like a train wreck, but to us, she was nothing of the sort. She knew what she was doing, she was hardworking, a breath of fresh air in the industry and unashamed to be deliciously 'weird'.

In a way, I've always been aware that her weird/flamboyant act was a camp aesthetic to gain attention for her music. I was also generally aware that Gaga was a persona, and not necessarily her complete true self. And I have a newfound respect for her being so shocking and amazing in spite of her physical and mental health issues. That is extremely admirable and inspiring. In fact it's pretty astounding, based on what she's said in the Oprah interview. What I struggle with is the intense emotional connection I had with Gaga, how I fiercely defended her weirdness and the way she was completely different from any other pop singer of the time, but now she seems like a totally different person.

And I know Enigma is still going on, and she is still a fierce performer, perhaps with less shock tactics. I'm not expecting any solution to this, just wanted to see if anyone else feels the same, and mourns this old persona we were all besotted with.

gaga will always be creative and embrass her theater side she will never ever loose that its part of her looking forward to what gaga does next 

[Didymus 34,380]

2 hours ago, giskardsb said:

I mean, she's still doing that, this entire thread is proof.   The issue is that many of you don't like the direction she's taken and so now you are criticizing her for doing exactly that instead of sticking with what your own expectation was.  She defied your expectations, and you don't like it, oops.

Nah, that's a false argument. There are ways to remain objective about at least some aspects of her artistic work, such as the melodic and structural quality of her songs, the inventiveness of her performance pieces, the cohesion of an album or show,... I'm talking about that stuff, not about her deciding to write country music, for example I'd be excited for a country song by Lady Gaga and would applaud her for going against the grain (even by just writing a standard country song without anything "Lady Gaga" about it). If the song is good, that is.

I don't follow you in your "whatever she does, it'll always be perfect because, well, Gaga changes so every change is automatically legit" logic. That seems extremely lazy and unfair to me.

2 hours ago, giskardsb said:

And I get what you are saying about the things you loved in Gaga in her early years.   Obviously that's a common theme around here.  I don't think any artist could keep up that level of 24/7 dedication forever, and the pressures involved along with the industry business in general  damaged her mentally and physically.   I'm not sure Gaga "wanted" to back off, but realized for her own mental health that she didn't have much choice.  I get why people mourn the loss of those early years though.

Nope, again, this seems a too easy and unfair response How did she have no choice? If she just abandoned the commercial pop route, she would still be able to commit to all of those values on her own time. I'm not saying she always has to release music 24/7, hell, she can take 7 years off if that's what it takes to write that next brilliant album if it's up to me  

It's not the frequency of her art that I'm missing. It's the quality. And "she couldn't keep it up" argument is... bleh. Of course she could. If she couldn't, why didn't she listen to her own mouth and scale back her career, hell, even actually go back to singing in local bars, I would live  for that  

2 hours ago, giskardsb said:

It's also impossible to deny some things we know to be true.... Gaga always wanted to be an actress, her music pre-TF ( Red and Blue and previous) was much more organically produced and leaned towards a raw rock based sound, and she was always a jazz vocalist and theater geek.    People trying to denigrate Gaga's turn towards a raw sound in Joanne and  her desire to perform Jazz and claiming it's not "real" Gaga are just denying what is obviously a core part of her personality.  

Joanne is not raw, first of all, and, second of all, it's just not an improvement songwriting wise compared to her older albums That's the problem, not her genre choice. I was one of the only ones who was super excited about her going for an organic, raw album. And then I heard she basically redressed the same old pop compositions with a semi-"earthy" instrumental which was then ruined by Bloodpop's electronic bs A lot of hype for nothing impressive.

Same with C2C. She had the chance to dive deep with her song selection, hell, maybe even write her own jazz album, but she went for the "let's just sing an easy-on-the-ear jazz standard at every talk show in the States, dress up like a jazz diva and have a party" route that secured commercial success more than any real artistic effort She made a pastiche out of it despite offering some amazing performances which, because of the way she presented that era, went almost completely unnoticed.

Again: stop pointing out the obvious. Of course she loves jazz and of course I can be thrilled about her releasing jazz. But it has to be. Good.

[Mister G 10,430]

6 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Nah, that's a false argument. There are ways to remain objective about at least some aspects of her artistic work, such as the melodic and structural quality of her songs, the inventiveness of her performance pieces, the cohesion of an album or show,... I'm talking about that stuff, not about her deciding to write country music, for example I'd be excited for a country song about Lady Gaga and would applaud her for going against the grain (even by just writing a standard country song without anything "Lady Gaga" about it). If the song is good, that is.

I don't follow you in your "whatever she does, it'll always be perfect because, well, Gaga changes so every change is automatically legit" logic. That seems extremely lazy and unfair to me.

Nope, again, this seems a too easy and unfair response How did she have no choice? If she just abandoned the commercial pop route, she would still be able to commit to all of those values on her own time. I'm not saying she always has to release music 24/7, hell, she can take 7 years off if that's what it takes to write that next brilliant album if it's up to me  

It's not the frequency of her art that I'm missing. It's the quality. And "she couldn't keep it up" argument is... bleh. Of course she could. If she couldn't, why didn't she listen to her own mouth and scale back her career, hell, even actually go back to singing in local bars, I would live  for that  

Joanne is not raw, first of all, and, second of all, it's just not an improvement songwriting wise compared to her older albums That's the problem, not her genre choice. I was one of the only ones who was super excited about her going for an organic, raw album. And then I heard she basically redressed the same old pop compositions with a semi-"earthy" instrumental which was then ruined by Bloodpop's electronic bs A lot of hype for nothing impressive.

Same with C2C. She had the chance to dive deep in her song selection, hell, maybe even write her own jazz album, but she went for the "let's just sing a song at every talk show in the States, dress up like a jazz diva and have a party" route that secured commercial success more than any real artistic effort

Again: stop pointing out the obvious. Of course she loves jazz and of course I can be thrilled about her releasing jazz. But it has to be. Good.

Agree to disagree but Joanne was a stronger album lyrically than ARTPOP was. Songs like Joanne, Grigio Girls and Angel Down are proof of that and I’d rather take any of those three over Dope anyday.

 

[Didymus 34,380]

18 minutes ago, MrG1087 said:

Agree to disagree but Joanne was a stronger album lyrically than ARTPOP was.

In what world omg. Sorry but no matter what the inspiration is, her repeating "where are you going" and "I'll miss you" in 10x variations is not lyrically clever If I compare that to G.UY., ARTPOP, MJH, Dope,... then omg.

But you're right, tastes differ

[Mister G 10,430]

1 minute ago, Didymus said:

In what world omg. Sorry but no matter what the inspiration is, her repeating "where are you going" and "I'll miss you" in 10x variations is not lyrically clever If I compare that to G.UY., ARTPOP, MJH, Dope,... then omg.

But you're right, tastes differ

In what world? The same one you live in where else 

Not the same style of each song my love. Mary Jane Holland and G.U.Y. are superb examples of ARTPOP’s stronger songs. But for me ARTPOP doesn’t have a lot lyrically that stands up to the rest. Sexxx Dreams, Aura, and Gypsy are some other contenders. I will always cherish ARTPOP and enjoy it regardless of all the non-believers. I just think Joanne had better lyrics collectively.

[moonboywow 3,136]

3 minutes ago, Didymus said:

In what world omg. Sorry but no matter what the inspiration is, her repeating "where are you going" and "I'll miss you" in 10x variations is not lyrically clever If I compare that to G.UY., ARTPOP, MJH, Dope,... then omg.

But you're right, tastes differ

I think its more difficult to write actual honest lyrics that are straight to the point. Its difficult to self reflect and see the ugly truth within yourself. Its easy to fancy it up with metaphors imo.