Bernie Sanders is in trouble

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33 minutes ago, Adakam said:

Who cares? Just vote blue no matter what

Abso*****nglutely!

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“Vote blue no matter what.” Yea, that’s the energy we need now lmao.. Y’all better hope Joe Biden is not the nominee with this flawed argument.

[Gagaloo911 12,959]

Lmaooo he's hardly in trouble. Please. Warren certainly has the momentum right now, but this campaign is no where near decided. 

If anyone should be worried it's Biden. Especially now with the Ukraine baggage. That's literally Hillary 2.0 lmao

If Biden is the candidate RIP this country. The primary is gonna come down to Sanders and Warren. 

And that's its own kinda mess lol

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24 minutes ago, Gagaloo92 said:

If anyone should be worried it's Biden. Especially now with the Ukraine baggage. That's literally Hillary 2.0 lmao

If Biden is the candidate RIP this country. The primary is gonna come down to Sanders and Warren. 

And you have people here talking about “vote blue no matter what.” They either didn’t learn a thing from 2016 or they are privilege enough to not care about who becomes president as long as it’s not a republican.

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1 hour ago, scarlxrd said:

And you have people here talking about “vote blue no matter what.” They either didn’t learn a thing from 2016 or they are privilege enough to not care about who becomes president as long as it’s not a republican.

Or we are smart enough to know that the Supreme Court is already in serious danger for decades and four more years of going backwards on climate change is frightening! Now is NOT the time to sit out or vote third party...unless you don’t give a damn about the planet or human rights. 

Elections have consequences.

[mmkay 864]

[HorusRa2 5,005]

5 hours ago, LilyLark said:

I don't dislike Sanders, but I really don't understand this virulent response by some of his supporters if you say you like Warren. I'm firmly in Warren's camp, and I'm not wealthy and I'm not white so no...it's not just wealthy white liberals supporting her. And when you start discussing demographics, look at how Bernie fares with 35+ POC voters...especially Black voters...it's not great. Neither he nor Warren do that well with POC voters overall, tbh, (yes, he has a lot of younger POC voters) and I say this as someone who supports Warren. Both badly need to work on connecting more with POC.

My issues with Bernie are the following:

1) Until about five years ago, he barely had any accomplishments to his name besides naming post offices. The only really significant thing he did pre-2016 was the Sanders-McCain Veterans Bill.

2) His terrible record on gun control. He voted for PLCAA twice, against the Brady Bill several times, and more. He comments after Sandy Hook were atrocious.

3) The hypocrisy. He voted for the Crime Bill, and yet railed against Hillary about it when she didn't even have a vote at the time. And up until the early 00s, he used to tout his "tough on crime" credentials.

4) Again, the hypocrisy. In 2009 he voted to block funds to close Gitmo. He voted to raise sentencing on crack back in the early 90s. It'd be one thing if he said he evolved (because we all change), but he doesn't really do that...instead he rails on others for being "bought" or "flip flopping" or so on when he  himself has changed dramatically on some points.

5) He's an economic reductionist to the point that some Black leaders in Vermont often felt ignored/belittled...because he would always switch the topic to income inequality when they tried to discuss the issues with him.

6) I just have a VERY hard time getting over the fact that he tweeted out, a few days before the election, that he thought Trump voters weren't deplorable racists.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/sanders-now-a-reformer-once-boasted-of-being-223600102.html

https://www.thedailybeast.com/vermonts-black-leaders-we-were-invisible-to-bernie-sanders

(and yes, I have more links..these are just a few I have right at hand).

And I'm not denying Warren is flawed...especially in foreign policy....but she can work well with others (which is paramount) and is more pragmatic. What good is having a progressive president if they can't get anything passed? Plus, at the end of the day the electoral college is a ****ed up, racist beast and we need certain states. Bernie will never, ever win Florida with some of his comments on Castro, Maduro, etc. Liz can possibly put FL in the mix. I'm also really impressed with her work with the CFPB. The Smart Savings Act was a good move (and she was able to get it passed), and she's sponsored some great bills on trade and the work force. I really, really like her anti-corruption plan she put out a few days ago. And...to me this is really important...she very much does not come across as an economic reductionist. I think she's better at intersectionality in general.

TLDR: Basically, people have legitimate reasons for preferring other candidates to Bernie. Not everyone who chooses another candidate is a "neoliberal" or a "sell out" or whatever.  But if Bernie is the nominee, I'll happily vote for him.

 

I would just say that generally your talking points are reminiscent of the media’s hack job on Bernie in the 2016 election. 

 

1. He was the amendment king when he was in the house—passing 90 amendments during his tenure. The first article states that Bernie has either met or exceeded expectations in terms of legislative activity whereas the second article suggests that Warren doesn’t have many legislative achievements (1 bill - which happens to be the smart savings act you had mentioned).

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/24/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-was-roll-call-amendment-king-1995-2/

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/is-elizabeth-warren-an-effective-senator/449349/

2. I’m going to have to disagree with you here. I do not think that victims s/b able to sue a gun manufacturer for selling a gun. Closing gun show loophole is good. Background checks great. I think an assault weapon ban is appropriate & even a buyback program like Beto suggests is appropriate, but provided all of the checks and balances took place and the gun got into the wrong hand, the company cannot be liable for that. You may not agree with that but that’s my view & I don’t apologize for it. 

3. Ironically, this one also is relevant to gun control. I am not going to tell you that the crime bill was good. It was a terrible piece of legislation with a lot added to it. Bernie is on record many times for stating the bill was bad that it would lead to mass incarceration but he voted for it anyway because of the ban on assault weapons provision included in the bill as well as the violence against women act. You can pick the pieces you don’t like in a legislation but you have to be fair and mention the parts that were good too. He also voted subsequently to amend the bill to ban the federal death penalty. 

 

4. As far as Gitmo goes, at the time of the 09 vote, Bernie expressed that there was more to figure out (what to do with prisoners etc) & that his vote against closing it had nothing to do with whether or not it should actually be shut down. https://web.archive.org/web/20090625033045/http://www.sanders.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=313364

 

5. There’s really not a lot of evidence I have seen beyond the article you’ve cited which I remember from the 2016 cycle. I don’t know what to really tell you except that his criminal justice plan is exceptional & that his focus on income inequality, providing universal healthcare and education does address part of but not all of the disparities that exist. I know Bernie doesn’t support an active reparations bill, but to my knowledge there hasn’t been a specific bill made that addresses this issue beyond the one that supports a “study of reparations.” Bernie could be pulled left here like Williamson most certainly is, but I’ve not seen anything different from awareness either. 

 

6. Not all Trump voters are deplorables. I know it bothers you & I know it hurts your feelings, but they’re not all like they are depicted. And if you’re going to win those people over (and you have to win some of them, others are far too gone), you can’t demonize them the way you’re implying here. 

 

I live in Florida. Idk if you do, but from where I’m sitting Bernie can win in Florida. And even if he couldn’t, he doesn’t need a Florida in order to beat Donald Trump. With MI, PA, WI, NH & possibly IA & NC, along with traditional blue states, he beats Trump easily. 

 

Now if you want to talk hypocrisy, we can discuss some of Warren’s issues as well. 

 Big Money - she keeps talking about corruption but she did big dollar fundraisers for her re-election campaign and then transferred it to her 2020 war chest. Then she says she’s going to take big money in the general. You think that means she’s going to make the big structural change she keeps talking about? 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/elizabeth-warrens-money-game-11546559182

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2019/02/26/warren_will_forgo_big_money_donors_in_primary_but_not_general_election_i_do_not_believe_in_unilateral_disarmament.html

 

 

I provided some links because this post is getting too long & if you’re firmly in Warren’s camp as I am with Sanders, were just going to go back & forth. I just ask that you take a look at the clips & go from there. 

[Guest]

I said this from day one when I first saw Bernie, hes a good activist but not a good leader. He could easily win over all democrats and Trump but failed to do so twice. Even someone as stupid as Warren is got ahead of him and used him. 

[Deagan 608]

It's Bernie or Trump again, i'm sure.

[REALITY 80,162]

10 hours ago, FATCAT said:

Warren has my vote as it currently stands, and I'm in an early primary state. I told the Bernie callers that I was between Warren and Bernie & now they call all the time trying to lay out the differences as if I'm set in my ways for the next few months. 

I'm for either of them atm, but Warren has an approachable personality that I love. That personality can go a long way in the general election, and I'm ready to help her on that fight.

1000% agree. 

I love both Bernie and Warren. I would be absolutely fine if either of them gets the nomination; no matter what I'm voting blue. However, if I had to pick one of them, right now I'm with Warren. I've watched so many interviews, town hall meetings, debates, rallies, etc. with her and she just has an amazing personality. She seems so genuine and kind (not to say that Bernie isn't), and that goes a long way.

Arguably the only reason why Trump one was because of his personality. It was divisive, obviously, but it made the people who wanted to vote for him even more riled up. We need the complete antithesis of that, and I believe that Warren is that candidate. 

[Andy McQueen 4,484]

11 hours ago, Robo Ga said:

I stopped reading at "populist gospel"... lol can we at least try to be objective. For the sake of truth. 

this

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5 minutes ago, M Monstre said:

1000% agree. 

I love both Bernie and Warren. I would be absolutely fine if either of them gets the nomination; no matter what I'm voting blue. However, if I had to pick one of them, right now I'm with Warren. I've watched so many interviews, town hall meetings, debates, rallies, etc. with her and she just has an amazing personality. She seems so genuine and kind (not to say that Bernie isn't), and that goes a long way.

Arguably the only reason why Trump one was because of his personality. It was divisive, obviously, but it made the people who wanted to vote for him even more riled up. We need the complete antithesis of that, and I believe that Warren is that candidate. 

me too

[Petie Estie 5,704]

it's cool to see Bernie supporters bash Warren non-stop as a white wealthy elite liberal while she is beating Bernie in the black vote at the moment. Y'all are absolutely ridiculous. Just because Warren isn't going as far as Sanders doesn't mean she's wrong. 

Also I am disappointed in her past with her native american heritage -- but her story about her family holds up. Why would she take & release a DNA test unless she genuinely thought she was native american? She learned DNA has little to do with being truly a part of native american heritage and she's apologized for that & included native american issues in her campaign. I'm proud of her for that. I believe people can actually learn and grow as human beings. 

Also yes, I've seen the video of her saying she's willing to take all kinds of money in the general because she does not believe she should stand down while her opponent takes millions more dollars than her. She has to WIN to actually effect change in this country and make that **** illegal -- which is her top priority. I think maybe...and this might be a shock ... people agree with her. 

That's my main issue with Bernie supporters. They can't imagine for a second that maybe Warren's positions -- while not being as far "left" as Sanders' positions, might be more popular and in some cases even...better. 

The best policies aren't always the most leftist policies. And at this point in American politics I consider myself radically left-wing. I just can't stand this weird purity politics with Sanders. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, SEANGT said:

it's cool to see Bernie supporters bash Warren non-stop as a white wealthy elite liberal while she is beating Bernie in the black vote at the moment. Y'all are absolutely ridiculous. Just because Warren isn't going as far as Sanders doesn't mean she's wrong. 

Also I am disappointed in her past with her native american heritage -- but her story about her family holds up. Why would she take & release a DNA test unless she genuinely thought she was native american? She learned DNA has little to do with being truly a part of native american heritage and she's apologized for that & included native american issues in her campaign. I'm proud of her for that. I believe people can actually learn and grow as human beings. 

Also yes, I've seen the video of her saying she's willing to take all kinds of money in the general because she does not believe she should stand down while her opponent takes millions more dollars than her. She has to WIN to actually effect change in this country and make that **** illegal -- which is her top priority. I think maybe...and this might be a shock ... people agree with her. 

That's my main issue with Bernie supporters. They can't imagine for a second that maybe Warren's positions -- while not being as far "left" as Sanders' positions, might be more popular and in some cases even...better. 

The best policies aren't always the most leftist policies. And at this point in American politics I consider myself radically left-wing. I just can't stand this weird purity politics with Sanders. 

Its invalid who black people choose to vote for, what matters is the persons policy, not who their supporters are.

Its not that much of an issue that she lied or believed shes native America, the bigger issue is she claimed to be one while refusing to defend native Americans in the Dakota pipeline.

Its also not that she does not go as far as bernie, the issue is she lies. She also support horrible things like war and the military. She even accepted Trump military budget and gave him way over what he asked for.

Im not even close to being a leftist, im a Libertarian and its obvious Warren is another Obama who lies about being progressive. Bernie on the other hand regardless of me disagreeing with him is who the left should support.

[HorusRa2 5,005]

31 minutes ago, SEANGT said:

it's cool to see Bernie supporters bash Warren non-stop as a white wealthy elite liberal while she is beating Bernie in the black vote at the moment. Y'all are absolutely ridiculous. Just because Warren isn't going as far as Sanders doesn't mean she's wrong. 

Also I am disappointed in her past with her native american heritage -- but her story about her family holds up. Why would she take & release a DNA test unless she genuinely thought she was native american? She learned DNA has little to do with being truly a part of native american heritage and she's apologized for that & included native american issues in her campaign. I'm proud of her for that. I believe people can actually learn and grow as human beings. 

Also yes, I've seen the video of her saying she's willing to take all kinds of money in the general because she does not believe she should stand down while her opponent takes millions more dollars than her. She has to WIN to actually effect change in this country and make that **** illegal -- which is her top priority. I think maybe...and this might be a shock ... people agree with her. 

That's my main issue with Bernie supporters. They can't imagine for a second that maybe Warren's positions -- while not being as far "left" as Sanders' positions, might be more popular and in some cases even...better. 

The best policies aren't always the most leftist policies. And at this point in American politics I consider myself radically left-wing. I just can't stand this weird purity politics with Sanders. 

Two problems. 

 

1. Warren's coalition and donors are the whitest coalition out of all of the democratic candidates based on the most recent available data. I don't have the link handy but will edit my comment when I do. 

 

2. It's currently not clear whether or not she is beating Bernie with AA's yet. Many of the polls aren't showing the race breakdown by candidate but rather in aggregate. But below is a recent poll in SC that doesn't seem to line up with the idea that Warren's beating Bernie with AA voters. 

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/29/democratic-poll-biden-warren-sanders-1518187 

Forty-five percent of black Democratic primary voters said they support Biden. Sanders got 13 percent and Warren received 4 percent. But 29 percent of white voters in the state said they support Biden, compared with 28 percent for Warren and 8 percent for Sanders

I would also just state that it's perfectly fine if you believe that Warren's policies are as far left as you think is best; however, there is plenty of polling that suggest majority of people approve of Bernie's specific agenda (medicare for all, free college tuition, student debt cancellation, wealth tax, green new deal, etc etc). 

 

Edit: @SEANGTSee below link. && You can LMAO all you want but I'm providing all the receipts. 

https://www.people-press.org/2019/08/16/most-democrats-are-excited-by-several-2020-candidates-not-just-their-top-choice/pp_2019-08-16_2020-democratic-candidates_0-06/