Kamala Harris releases student loan debt forgiveness program

[PartySick 173,429]

47 minutes ago, Morphine Prince said:

$1,100 is approximately one class at a university in the US  

Most courses at my community college are about $300 to $500 per credit hour before you factor in supplies like text books, any kind of gadgets, etc. Considering most full time students get about 30 hours per year, that's...a lot of f*cking money 

[Whispering 18,865]

34 minutes ago, NewUsername said:

see? that's crazy  

Oh, that's good news  And how do the community colleges compare to those with a high inscription fees? Are there numbers about the quality etc? 

(I know you can't of course compare e.g. Oxford to 'a normal' university, but I mean that it would still not be fair and still a problem if for example the free colleges don't get any resources etc to being able to offer quality. Something I wouldn't be too shocked about if US government tried to have it like that, so that the elites can try to keep education elite )

Community colleges are good for getting your requirements out of the way. The credits transfer to the state school in my city and you can start to take upper level classes and classes primarily in your major when you start the state school. What’s interesting is that the teachers at the state school and local private school are often the same teachers at the community college, especially in the summer. 

The exception being for someone going into PreMed. You could still get your other basic classes out of the way, but math and sciences would be tricky. However, you are going to end up owing such astronomical numbers anyhow...I don’t think a year would make a difference. Lol

Private schools will always have that built in advantage for the elite, but they do give massive scholarships for the underprivileged that qualify. I know people who have received full rides at Harvard, Yale, and Vanderbilt. 

[DontDoubtDavid 1,196]

Wish there could be a better loan forgiveness program for teachers or people in education though...

[rumours 45,521]

9 minutes ago, OG Gaga Stan said:

You make the decision to go to college when you're 17 or 18 years old, after growing up in a culture that stresses school rankings and Ivy League prestige. We condition students to aim high and then punish them for it.

To say that I was given inadequate guidance by my high school and college counselors about the dangers of student loan debt when I was a teenager would be a massive understatement. 

While I'm sorry your high school and college counselors weren't relaying that information to you, you have the entire internet at your disposal to do research of your own. Moreover, there's nothing stopping a student from gathering information via academic faculty as well.

With that said, I agree with the misnomer perpetuated in American society regarding school ranking and the supposed "prestige" derived from Ivy League establishments.

14 minutes ago, OG Gaga Stan said:

I don't know what job you worked through college that pays well enough to cover the tens of thousands of dollars you'd need to cover the average cost of tuition, housing, books, food, utilities, etc. without serious supplemental help from your parents, but it is nearly impossible to cover the cost of college with a job while in school. If you go to a high ranking university, aren't wealthy, or gifted a free-ride, it's nearly impossible to pay them back period. 80% of students work while in school (myself included) and the overall debt keeps accruing. Tuition costs keep rising while wages remains stagnant. Student loan sharks deliberately prey on the vulnerable. The playing field isn't level. 

We've created a system that shuffles students into a for-profit pipeline with rhetoric about the need to improve their lot in life and then shackles them to debt until they die. If you were born into a poorer family, you bear the largest burden. Racial stratification places the vast majority of that burden on black women. Not everyone has the opportunities you've been afforded. 

"I got mine, so the rest of you can choke" isn't a very compelling argument, nor is it a moral or decent one. 

1) I knew for sure by 8th grade that I was going to go to college, so I worked hard to attain that goal. I worked all throughout high school and have worked during college to help make the cost of university (and debt occurred) feasible. You also as a student can search for funding through other areas, such as 3rd party scholarships which help alleviate costs. Moreover, there are always cheaper options regarding schooling if one looks, such as attending community college for 2 years or going to a lower ranked college than your dream school that's willing to work with you more financially.

2) Not all of us are given equal opportunities at any point in life; that's just life. I certainly wish I was afforded some of the great opportunities those of higher income brackets were given, but that's just not how the cookie crumbled. My point isn't "I got mine so the rest of you can choke" (thanks for misrepresenting my perspective to fit whatever narrative you're trying to push). I was not given my education and had to work hard to get where I am. I believe that others (although it'll be harder for some than others... cause that's how life is) can do so as well.

24 minutes ago, OG Gaga Stan said:

I don't even know where to start with this. The fact that you think that this student loan crisis is students' "own doing" betrays a lack of a basic understanding of the system we live in and the power dynamics at play within it. Students don't create the conditions in which the grow up. They try to adapt as best they can to what they've been burdened with. 

If you want a decent-paying job and don't want to live in economic instability, you have to go to college. College means debt for the vast, vast majority of college students. And debt is, therefore, that student's fault? After their environment essentially demands that they take it on? 

Many of the countries around the world with the least amount of systemic economic inequity and the highest rates of economic stability and overall standard of living provide for tuition-free colleges. We live in the richest country on earth. There's no excuse for what we're currently having to deal with.

Again, that's not what I said. One cannot place the entire burden of the crisis on the students. That's preposterous. However, you as an individual should have the ability to think rationally and make optimized decisions given constraints. For example, this involves researching which degrees have enough of an ROI to where attending "college x" and accumulated "y" amount of debt is worth it.

"If you want a decent-paying job and don't want to live in economic instability, you have to go to college. " -> And this is not necessarily true either. Trade schools provide much shorter times (and therefore costs) to complete and can provide much better financial outcomes than many degrees offered in an university setting.

"College means debt for the vast, vast majority of college students. And debt is, therefore, that student's fault? After their environment essentially demands that they take it on?" -> Yes, it is. A college degree, more than being an academic pursuit, is an investment in your own future. For many of us, reaching our goals requires acquiring debt. You aren't working towards goals in a vacuum.

"Many of the countries around the world with the least amount of systemic economic inequity and the highest rates of economic stability and overall standard of living provide for tuition-free colleges. We live in the richest country on earth." -> I agree with you on this point. However, the conversation here is dealing with forgiving debt. A separate conversation can be had regarding the need to change the constraints altogether.

34 minutes ago, OG Gaga Stan said:

This is right-wing "bootstraps" rhetoric that has been used to justify the exploitation of those in poverty from time immemorial. The word "accountability" implies wrongdoing. We're talking about a student choosing to educate themselves, gain a more comprehensive understanding of the world around them. A better life altogether. In what universe is that wrong? And in a world where several of the most successful nations understand that fact and provide for tuition-free college, what are we holding students accountable for? Being born here? Choosing to try to better themselves while lacking access to the opportunities that luckier students get to take advantage of?

What lesson are we supposed to be teaching these people? Social mobility is impossible? If you want to gain access to an opportunity to pull yourself or your family out of your situation (a situation we've all, collectively, allowed to exist), you have to become an indentured servant to the state?

With your approach, college becomes a luxury experienced by those with generational wealth, which furthers class and racial stratification. It facilitates the already-existing two-tiered system that benefits those born into wealth or stability and punishes those who aren't. 

I truly have absolutely no idea how anyone could find that perspective compelling.

I'm just gonna quote all of this because there are too many point in here that I'd want to disagree with and dissect individually than I have time for rn.

Look, we clearly see the world (and the idea of responsibility) differently. Moreover, you are attempting to intuit (albeit incorrectly much of the time) my entire perspective and demonize it. The word "accountability" does not imply wrongdoing. Asking someone to pay back  debt which they knowingly acquired is not immoral. I am not legitimizing loan sharks, social immobility, or the misuse of generational wealth. All of those things absolutely suck (I'm no stranger to them that's for sure) and are problems with the system. My whole point in this entire thread has been regarding personal accountability for debt knowingly taken on. That's it.

Moreover, like I said in a previous statement, I'm fine with a program in a similar vein to Kamala's (albeit with a totally different metric) by which students who made this financial mistake can have debt forgiven after making supplemental contributions to society for the betterment of the country. I see nothing morally wrong with forgiving debt after someone (for example) volunteers in their community "x" amount of hours. However, forgiving all student debt without such a contribution is something I have stood against and will continue to do so.

[Whispering 18,865]

41 minutes ago, DontDoubtDavid said:

Wish there could be a better loan forgiveness program for teachers or people in education though...

I know some people who received help through Public Service Loan Forgiveness and through state sponsored programs. Betsy DeVos is probably trying to kill anything having to do with loan forgiveness, but have you checked into all currently available programs? Do you work in an area where there is critical shortage or a low income, at risk area? 

[Seeka 12,372]

2 hours ago, rumours said:

Look, it’s not as if anyone is dealing with a game of completely imperfect information when making choices regarding college. I’m a student, have taken on debt, and have spent many hours working to make sure I graduate debt free (which has not been an easy task). If people made irrational choices given whatever constraints they knowingly face, that doesn’t make me feel sorry for them or feel as if the government needs to “liberate” them of the debt that was their own doing with nothing in return. I know we fundamentally disagree on this issue, but I believe a culture of accountability is important. You are an adult when you go to college, so you are fully able to take responsibility for the financial situation you put yourself in. 

 

Now in regards to my comment which you reacted to, I think the rationale of this sort of thing isn’t bad... it’s just Kamala managed to pick a ridiculous metric (esp considering the capital required to start a business, the % of small businesses which fail by year 2, etc.). I wouldn’t be mad though if the government proposed a program by which they’d forgive “x”% of student debt based on another metric like hours of community service, military service, etc. I wouldn’t be against loan forgiveness, provided there is a reasonable metric by which those in debt give back to their society and country through such a program.

I kind of find your defense of this sorta... Weak?

You're basically saying "You're an adult and you must take responsibility" is well and good but here's a few things you should account for. 

1. People aren't really adults when they're 18. Society pretends they are but in honesty, adulthood responsibility and that feeling differs from person to person. 

I didn't feel like an adult until after I quit college (which I had the wrong major for btw) because I was depressed enough to kill myself. 

2. Unexpected circumstances can cut college short. I don't really need to explain this. 

3. Some people are not going to college for themselves. This ties in with number 1. Some people are going to college to make their parents happy, not themselves. And it's probably because they don't feel like they're adults.

While I understand where you're coming from, you're not the only person in the world. I have 15k of college debt I need to pay off because I made a mistake. I accept that. But it would be nice to have my loan forgiven. Especially when I know in the rest of the world, these outrageous college loans aren't a thing. 

[rumours 45,521]

5 minutes ago, Seeka said:

1. People aren't really adults when they're 18. Society pretends they are but in honesty, adulthood responsibility and that feeling differs from person to person. 

I didn't feel like an adult until after I quit college (which I had the wrong major for btw) because I was depressed enough to kill myself.

It's a number chosen rather arbitrarily, so I totally get where you are coming from. However, then what should the idealized number be to determine "adulthood"? We'll get into a battle of semantics and analogies, resulting in no definitive answer. Whether good or bad, that's the current constraint that we all face.

I'm sorry you were depressed btw

10 minutes ago, Seeka said:

2. Unexpected circumstances can cut college short.

Sure, I absolutely agree with you here. Just like any other investment, it doesn't always (unfortunately) result in the outcome we initially desired. A college degree is certainly no guarantee of economic security. However, the debt incurred to make that investment is still there regardless (analogous to a sunken cost).

12 minutes ago, Seeka said:

3. Some people are not going to college for themselves. This ties in with number 1. Some people are going to college to make their parents happy, not themselves. And it's probably because they don't feel like they're adults.

Well, it's hard to account for this sort of specific intention in terms of public policy. Regardless, if you as an 18 year old sign off to take on these loans (for better or for worse), you are responsible to pay them off.

15 minutes ago, Seeka said:

While I understand where you're coming from, you're not the only person in the world. I have 15k of college debt I need to pay off because I made a mistake. I accept that. But it would be nice to have my loan forgiven. Especially when I know in the rest of the world, these outrageous college loans aren't a thing. 

I fully understand I'm not the only person in the world. Simply put, the crux of what I've been saying is just the concept of paying off debt which one voluntarily incurred. I'm totally for (as I've stated in other comments) the government implementing programs designed specifically for student debt forgiveness after societal contribution. It'd be a great way for students who perhaps made a mistake taking on all this debt to 1) have personal financial stress alleviated and 2) provide a service back to the community as a form of "non-monetary payment" for the debt.

 

I hope this helps clear up things

[Adakam 2]

The fact that theres such a thing as student debt in the US, baffles me. You guys have such a broken system that I feel bad for you, whats the point of being on the richest country, if you have to live with this bs? The system is rigged to screw you over.

[Adakam 2]

My internet double posted

[weed 79,102]

wtf lmao should've just not announced this. how many --working americans-- can create and run a business for 3 years while in debt??

[DontDoubtDavid 1,196]

On 7/28/2019 at 4:27 PM, Whispering said:

I know some people who received help through Public Service Loan Forgiveness and through state sponsored programs. Betsy DeVos is probably trying to kill anything having to do with loan forgiveness, but have you checked into all currently available programs? Do you work in an area where there is critical shortage or a low income, at risk area? 

I’ve been on PSLF for about a year now. I mean, it’s fine and all, but it’s a 10 year period. It’s just stressful cause of the wait, and my payments are really tiny, like they don’t even cover the interest. My debt just keeps growing and growing, but it’s supposed to be forgiven in the end. It’s just a stressful wait...

[FlopSlurper 34,336]

Meanwhile my "developing" country sends thousands of us abroad all over the world on scholarships, pays our tuition fees, pays for our books, gadgets etc, pays for our flights, pays us a monthly salary even during summer and winter break all for nothing in return. So much for land of the free and the american dream yada yada yada

[Fresco 1,688]

I also find it weird to think that a person that can't afford college should start a business.   However, she is from California and there are venture capital firms looking for viable startups to fund. Graduates could also start professional consulting companies. Basically get a job at a company but negotiate to be a contractor instead of employee. Some companies will do that. There are some businesses that might have low start-up costs depending on local license requirements: lawn care, dog care, day care, house painting, delivery drivers ... To open a business in a poor neighborhood sounds very challenging, unless the client money doesn't come from the poor, like with a consulting company or an online start-up company.