Everybody Loves Enigma: Why?

[Nino 12]

Just now, Didymus said:

I'm genuinely sorry if I come across that way but I never ever said (or thought) my opinion was fact lol. If there's one thing I'm just a little bit proud of it's that I can always admit my opinion is my own and that others are entitled to theirs I've posted I'm happy that fans are enjoying the show more than anyone here, but that doesn't stop me from having a different opinion about it.

2 hours ago, Didymus said:

more evidence for me that fans are making **** up to avoid the obvious conclusion: that they may like the show but that it's not necessarily good

Which is it again? Are the massive majority of people who actually saw the show making **** up or are you just being contrarian for the sake of it?

7 minutes ago, Didymus said:

But just for the record, I do not think I'm superior to anyone. And I really don't appreciate the "you probably can't afford" diss wtf is that sis? Don't say **** like that.

It's relevant when the OP of the thread that you blatantly ignored to trash Enigma some more just like you ignored every point I've made clearly stated "the people who actually go to the show are impressed by it". You(who presumably haven't seen the show)used it as a jumping off point to trash the show. The worst reply in this entire thread from the perspective of somebody who went here was lukewarm but still very positive.   Sorry if it came off as elitist but the point was that I doubt you've seen the show so the fact that you're unimpressed by it wasn't relevant to this discussion begin with. You're just trying to argue something different to make your opinion look valid in a space it was explicitly stated not to be welcome in.

I said I was done but you're not going to deliberately misconstrue my intentions OR write 14 paragraph novel responses without comprehending what I said to begin with. I can't tell which it is but either way it comes off extremely rude.

 

[Didymus 34,379]

2 minutes ago, Nino said:

Which is it again? Are the massive majority of people who actually saw the show making **** up or are you just being contrarian for the sake of it?

I'm not saying they're making **** up by saying it's good, just that apparently they have a hard time distinguishing between "I like it" and "the show is objectively good" I'm not gonna argue with someone who says they like the show, I'm happy for them. But if they wanna claim objectively that the show is top notch, then I might have some counterarguments. That's literally all it is  

4 minutes ago, Nino said:

Sorry if it came off as elitist but the point was that I doubt you've seen the show so the fact that you're unimpressed by it wasn't relevant to this discussion begin with. You're just trying to argue something different to make your opinion look valid in a space it was explicitly stated not to be welcome in.

Almost everyone was replying with humorous one liners, I just joined in with a contrary opinion. There wasn't a ****ing discussion in here, it was just people posting "because it's a good show" 30x.

And I still resent that dichotomy between the fans who saw it and the fans who didn't, makes no sense. I've already posted in numerous threads that I don't believe in it as there are aspects of a show you can review to a great extent even though you weren't there (setlist, choreo, lighting, stage design, vocals,...).

I've been to three Gaga concerts and I didn't change my opinion about those shows after being there, my criticism (or praise) remained valid  It's not nice to exclude people from a discussion like they wouldn't "get it", how do you even know, esp with this show where the large majority of this forum won't even get a chance to go?

9 minutes ago, Nino said:

I said I was done but you're not going to deliberately misconstrue my intentions

You called me a moron who was "physically incapable" of admitting his opinion was just an opinion and who couldn't afford to go see a Gaga concert lol. I can't misconstrue that, that's up there in black and white. You were rude, took it to a personal level, and all because you can't handle people presenting a different opinion apparently

But fine, trust me, I'll never respond to a thread you make ever again.

[crisTEAne 21,059]

i (would) love (if i could attend) it  

[Nino 12]

27 minutes ago, Didymus said:

It's not nice to exclude people from a discussion like they wouldn't "get it", how do you even know, esp with this show where the large majority of this forum won't even get a chance to go? 

Tell me what exactly is the point is of criticizing a show you have no intention of seeing? Where's the fairness in talking **** on a show that quite literally isn't for you people? This ain't coachella sis, it wasn't designed to be streamed for free by fans all over the world. It's for the people who attend. It's exclusionary but that's the way the world works. It's like trying to trash the paintjob on a roller coaster at disneyland if you don't plan on going. Like what's the actual point? It's not for you. It's nitpicking parts of an experience that you aren't going to have. Just like you can look at pictures and videos of the disneyland roller coaster, you can look at videos of Enigma but you aint gonna have the same experience as actually being there by having a photo. If that was the case nobody would pay to go to shows in the first place.

27 minutes ago, Didymus said:

You called me a moron who was "physically incapable" of admitting his opinion was just an opinion and who couldn't afford to go see a Gaga concert lol. I can't misconstrue that, that's up there in black and white. You were rude, took it to a personal level, and all because you can't handle people presenting a different opinion apparently 

I told you to admit that you just didn't like the show. The resumes of everybody involved and the almost universal acclaim point to it being as close to objectively good as anything can be objectively talked about. If after being presented with several responses of REASONING why the show is good and even people who aren't strangers to nitpicking Gaga's work saying it was a good show, you still can't admit that it's just your opinion and continue to flail your arms  on your keyboard in your bedroom, talking about how a show that you still haven't seen isn't good despite all evidence to the contrary, I'm going to point out that you look more than a little crazy.

Also pretending that Gaga would scrap iconic choreography like Bad Romance and Judas is moronic. I'm not going to sugar coat. It's part of what catapulted her songs to icon status, just like with **** like Thriller back in the day. If she's going to keep the iconic songs, why wouldn't she keep the supporting elements that made them iconic? It's not personal at all, even if Gaga thought that way I'd call it stupid. It's moron tingz. 

Let's review what happened here: 1) you came into a discussion that I personally made myself, to talk about why people who go to enigma enjoy it so much, fully knowing that you haven't been to enigma and don't enjoy it at all. 2) started a massive argument where you trash Gaga's ability and everybody she's involved with, going as far as to contradict yourself several times within a single page of the thread just to find every angle for negativity possible 3) ignored everything  said that you don't agree with, and made up a false interpretation  just to beat the dead horse of your delusions about Enigma being a bad show some more 4) tried to shift the conversation to me being an elitist or something because I pointed out how very poor your behavior, reasoning and overall quality of discussion are. You're no victim here.  

[MonsterMom 12,647]

[Magui 2,623]

2 minutes ago, MonsterMom said:

I been thinking about telling you that i  like you lol, i like your attitude, you're fun and keep it lighthearted. 

[MonsterMom 12,647]

11 minutes ago, Magui said:

I been thinking about telling you that i  like you lol, i like your attitude, you're fun and keep it lighthearted. 

[Didymus 34,379]

25 minutes ago, Nino said:

Tell me what exactly is the point is of criticizing a show you have no intention of seeing? Where's the fairness in talking **** on a show that quite literally isn't for you people? This ain't coachella sis, it wasn't designed to be streamed for free by fans all over the world. It's for the people who attend. It's exclusionary but that's the way the world works. It's like trying to trash the paintjob on a roller coaster at disneyland if you don't plan on going. Like what's the actual point? It's not for you.

There is no point, just like there's no point in coming online here and masturbating to your own good experiences of the show

You went there, you saw it, great, does that make your opinion superior to others? Hell no. Is your opinion more informed and well-rounded? Possibly (depends though). But why do opinions have to compete against each other?

Why are you bringing in this elitist "only a small group can have something to say" element? This is a community of people interested in Gaga, everyone gets a say and that's final. If you want a dictatorship where people need to earn a right to speak their minds then I suggest you try to create it elsewhere 'cause this place ain't it  

25 minutes ago, Nino said:

If after being presented with several responses of REASONING why the show is good and even people who aren't strangers to nitpicking Gaga's work saying it was a good show, you still can't admit that it's just your opinion and continue to flail your arms  on your keyboard in your bedroom, talking about how a show that you still haven't seen isn't good despite all evidence to the contrary, I'm going to point out that you look more than a little crazy.

Why do I need to be automatically convinced by a few (weak) arguments though? I can easily throw that same ball in your direction.

Again: this isn't a competition, stop trying to compete. And I already said my opinion was just my opinion so let that go too, pls.

25 minutes ago, Nino said:

Also pretending that Gaga would scrap iconic choreography like Bad Romance and Judas is moronic.

And what about all of those other songs? Are you saying the Alejandro choreo is iconic now? 'cause it's not.

This:

Does nothing to push the show forward. This is just a pop star standing in one spot, doing some half-executed choreo and calling it a show. I don't think that's good enough, personally, and I'm still surprised so many people here seem to think it is

25 minutes ago, Nino said:

tried to shift the conversation to me being an elitist or something because I pointed out how very poor your behavior, reasoning and overall quality of discussion are. You're no victim here.  

I only did that because you literally called me a poor moron. Jesus. Take some responsibility for your own words at the very least.

[Nino 12]

14 minutes ago, Didymus said:

You went there, you saw it, great, does that make your opinion superior to others?

Again, evaluating something that quite literally doesn't apply to you is arbitrary by nature. At least by having the experience your experience can be more grounded in reality. Some things like wigs and costumes photograph strangely under stage lights, for just a quick example. Posting low quality cell phone videos and saying "look how tacky " literally says nothing about how that might read in person. 

14 minutes ago, Didymus said:

And I already said my opinion was just my opinion so let that go too, pls.

After I pointed out that you looked physically incapable, you then tried to switch it and attack me for pointing out that you looked incapable of admitting it. 

14 minutes ago, Didymus said:

I only did that because you literally called me a poor moron. Jesus. Take some responsibility for your own words at the very least.

Only said that you probably can't afford the show since it's extremely expensive and most people can't.  When the whole point of the thread was to point out that people who go to the show like it, and you come in being negative, it's fair to point out that you probably haven't seen it. A guess that we now understand to be right by the way you got offended instead of just saying you've been to the residency.  If you want a thread about how people who haven't seen Enigma hate it go make one. That wasn't the point of this and pointing that fact out is completely fair

and again pretending that her iconic choreography needs to go is moronic so

[Nino 12]

Currently planning my 3rd Enigma/J&P weekend. I'll get you some videos of the "recycled not iconic" choreography that apparently is so infuriating it makes the whole show bad, apparently  

[Kimblue 7,334]

@Nino

 

 

Bravo! 

[giskardsb 12,565]

@Didymus (on mobile so not gonna quote) 

Measurements of "objective good" only matter if you  agree on the same measurements.  Of course anyone who says they like Enigma is going to consider it "good".   They apparently are judging on different criteria than what you are.  Or, the "bad" parts are not enough to prevent the "good" parts from prevailing.  You show choreography examples above. To you those are important. I personally don't care if she dances at all so I'm ok with her conserving energy. Then others measure her vocals based on the bad notes they find, while I don't let those missteps affect my entire feeling of a show over all the great vocals, probably because as a musician myself I know that no performance is ever perfect 100% but I'd rather the occasional real off note than fake lip sync.   

I get accused of pretension here all the time when I diss pop in general because I'm not much of a pop fan.   The "we have high standards" crowd dragging Enigma come across the same way, because everyone has a different measurement base and arguments ensue because people don't like being told that because they enjoyed something they have low standards compare to the "objective" people.

I have "high standards" for musicianship and vocals because I'm a musician and my friends are musicians and I know that in any given local music scene there are performers with more innate ability than 99% of pop stars.  But I also know that humans aren't perfect, so my needs for Gaga's performance on my criteria are met with Enigma because I'm there for Gaga and her live band and all the rest is just environment. To me the performance is objectively good. If you judge based on hard hitting choreo and outfit choices your feeling might be different, but neither is actually incorrect, because we are using different systems of measure.   

Since 90% of Gagas vocals on a given night are good to great, and her live band arrangementents always rocking, then chances are I'll nearly always be happy with a show.  Your mileage may very, but I know from experience if you starting implying that others have "basic" or low standards it's an invitation to arguments that can never be "won" because the basis is different.  Different, but not insuperior. 

[Didymus 34,379]

@giskardsb I 100% agree with you, actually.

My original comment was a lighthearted diss as a response to all humorous one line sentences before it. I like to engage in argumented discussions and defend my pov but when it comes down to it, it's absolutely the case that when you're "measuring differently" all points of view are valid (and of course they are, always).

It is genuinely my opinion, though, that most LMs let her off too easily, and actively lower their standards to be satisfied with what Gaga does. I don't just say that based on my own disliking of Gaga's recent output but also because I see how harsh and critical they can be about other artists while not applying those standards of judgment to their own fav Probably typical stan behavior but I never had that with my favs.

--

6 hours ago, Nino said:

Again, evaluating something that quite literally doesn't apply to you is arbitrary by nature. At least by having the experience your experience can be more grounded in reality.

Didn't I literally type that myself though?

All I'm adding to that is that by acknowledging that that's true it doesn't automatically follow that people who weren't there can have nothing meaningful or correct to say about it Because that's too much.

6 hours ago, Nino said:

After I pointed out that you looked physically incapable, you then tried to switch it and attack me for pointing out that you looked incapable of admitting it. 

I never had a problem admitting my opinion was just an opinion, so I still don't understand what you could be referring to. I do get lost in discussions sometimes but I don't change into a different person, hence I immediately apologized and clarified my intentions when you brought it up

6 hours ago, Nino said:

and again pretending that her iconic choreography needs to go is moronic so

The Alejandro choreo is not iconic. And she's not even a good enough dancer to perform those supposedly iconic choreos correctly, that's the thing Why not just ditch them or use them for special occasions and choose a lighter choreography that saves her vocal from perishing in her physical rhythm?

If even Bey can change up her 1000x more iconic choreos every single tour (not even every single tour, every single public performance) then it's not too much to ask for Gaga to at least consider that just doing the exact same number in a different costume is not part of giving people their money's worth I refuse to believe that's too much to ask.

[Bling 31,039]

On 6/25/2019 at 6:52 PM, zebulonpyke said:

I think the structure of the show is BRILLIANT. Without getting TOO analytical, I think Gaga’s PTSD caused her to find being “Gaga” traumatizing. The use of Enigma’s transportation of Gaga into a “simulation of the future” gives real life Gaga an opportunity to create new physical memories that ties her music from the past into her perception of herself in the present. It’s a bit hard to explain, but as someone who also suffers from trauma relating to both sexual assault and the use of performance to conceal emotional truths, being able to re-enter parts of the body and mind that get blocked off as a result of trauma is a key part of healing, so i think one of my favorite things about the show is that Gaga creates such a wonderful piece of performance art in which she can rediscover the healing power of performance in restructuring her own narrative. Hope this makes sense.

Wow. You know, I haven't been the biggest fan of Enigma but you really brought a different perspective and I thank you for being brave. I, too, suffer from trauma in my past and it has definitely changed me. I never thought that Gaga going too "Gaga" might be triggering ("I can't become 'Lady Gaga' again otherwise what's the point of this record," 5F2 teas) and now the more campy version of Gaga for Enigma (maybe some of Coachella and JWT actually) makes more sense. This has me even more eager for what LG6 will bring. 

[Bling 31,039]

7 hours ago, Didymus said:

There is no point, just like there's no point in coming online here and masturbating to your own good experiences of the show

You went there, you saw it, great, does that make your opinion superior to others? Hell no. Is your opinion more informed and well-rounded? Possibly (depends though). But why do opinions have to compete against each other?

Why are you bringing in this elitist "only a small group can have something to say" element? This is a community of people interested in Gaga, everyone gets a say and that's final. If you want a dictatorship where people need to earn a right to speak their minds then I suggest you try to create it elsewhere 'cause this place ain't it  

Why do I need to be automatically convinced by a few (weak) arguments though? I can easily throw that same ball in your direction.

Again: this isn't a competition, stop trying to compete. And I already said my opinion was just my opinion so let that go too, pls.

And what about all of those other songs? Are you saying the Alejandro choreo is iconic now? 'cause it's not.

This:

Does nothing to push the show forward. This is just a pop star standing in one spot, doing some half-executed choreo and calling it a show. I don't think that's good enough, personally, and I'm still surprised so many people here seem to think it is

I only did that because you literally called me a poor moron. Jesus. Take some responsibility for your own words at the very least.

That video.... I wonder if that was an off night? I hope she's not in pain