Free Medications Proposal Under Review By Canadian Government

[Economy 53,068]

1 hour ago, Delusional Aura said:

I don't like the idea of Universal Healthcare. For preventable diseases like diabetes or STDs, you should pay for it cause it's your lifestyle that caused it. For diseases that is not preventable like certain cancers ect, then by all means I'm for susidised or free Healthcare in these instances.

This is over simplifying it

 

Genetics play a big role in health problems too.

 

There's ppl who never smoked for example that get lung cancer and ppl who smoke all their lives and don't

 

U can't always pinpoint what exactly triggered a health issue in each individual case

 

For example high blood pressure runs strongly in my family and I have it despite exercising and trying to eat healthy

 

Our bodies are not guaranteed to function perfectly despite our best efforts

 

 

[Economy 53,068]

35 minutes ago, AlexanderMagno said:

I will read it tomorrow! (it's 2am here so excuse me for keeping this study for tomorrow haha)

 

It's true! North America considers hypertension for lower blood pressure values than Europe (Europe and America differ quite a bit about health approaches).

They are not wrong, after all the lowest blood pressure is the better. And metabolic syndrome in North America is a big issue (I'm talking about obesity, and all those risk factors, just like hypertension, that increase cardiovascular disease), so it's understandable that they try to call out how important it is to control blood pressure.

So why the difference? Because if we consider North America guidelines' blood pressure values, they are so intangible that almost everyone in the world would be considered having hypertension. Theoretically, their values are correct, you should keep blood pressure as low as possible, but in practice almost no one will be able to reach those values. That's why Europe keeps the threshold a bit higher, it's more realistic and still is acceptable. 130-140 values are considered pre-hypertension (just keep exercising, a good diet, and you're good).

This is what I was thinking

 

Since medications tend to have side effects, it may not be worth it if ur only slightly above

 

But here in Canada as soon as u hit 130 many doctors already want to put u on blood pressure pills

 

But Pharmaceutical industry is more corrupt here in North America than in Europe so I wonder if in any way shape or form they have an influence

 

I know in Portugal the media talks about the value of life style as did my doctors there too... But here in Canada it's straight to the pills 

 

It bothers me. It's not that im anti medication or anything, I get it that there's times it's beneficial... But im also against the idea of immediately always jumping to that as the solution especially with more mild conditions where life style changes were even attempted yet

 

[Delusional Aura 5,129]

3 hours ago, Economy said:

This is over simplifying it

 

Genetics play a big role in health problems too.

 

There's ppl who never smoked for example that get lung cancer and ppl who smoke all their lives and don't

 

U can't always pinpoint what exactly triggered a health issue in each individual case

 

For example high blood pressure runs strongly in my family and I have it despite exercising and trying to eat healthy

 

Our bodies are not guaranteed to function perfectly despite our best efforts

 

 

I understand what you are saying but you can't just make healthcare free across the board either. It has to be profitable at some point so doctors, researchers and scientists continue to enter the field as they know they will be paid accordingly. If Healthcare isn't profitable, then it becomes something that is entirely dependent on tax payers money and we all know how governments are really the most trust worthy people when it comes to spending money. 

[doppelganger 4,022]

I come from a country with universal health care. It's a godsend I tell ya. Hope Canada follows suit and not end up like the USA. 

[RAMROD 117,892]

Jebus, working as doctor is not as profitable in Canada soon. Since this will limit the amount of money doctors can make.Unless the government agreed to pay them as much as they receive currently. Besides the reputation of physicians would go down the drain. They have to struggle so many years to get the education and experience they need to get to where they are and if at the end they have no respect in the eyes of the people, it is worthless. The physicians would in turn become careless if they do not get the respect and recognition or importance they feel they should be deserving of and in turn it would ruin their image even further. Having a career in the medical field is one of prestige and if the field dumbs down, there is no question that everything else won't. I pity them. 

 

[Economy 53,068]

4 hours ago, Delusional Aura said:

I understand what you are saying but you can't just make healthcare free across the board either. It has to be profitable at some point so doctors, researchers and scientists continue to enter the field as they know they will be paid accordingly. If Healthcare isn't profitable, then it becomes something that is entirely dependent on tax payers money and we all know how governments are really the most trust worthy people when it comes to spending money. 

Much of the developed world has universal healthcare it's fine

 

Health care industry due to very low elasticity doesn't follow supply and demand the way most goods and services do and for that reason adding profit margin costs to it sucks.

 

The US healthcare system literally costs way more than the Canadian system despite being run by the government

 

If u look at the per capita cost difference, it's huge

 

Not only do hospitals have to have their profit margin added into costs but then so do third parties like insurance companies

 

Whatever efficiency is lost by the government running it I think is still worth it tbh

[GagaXCollection 7,723]

I live in a country with universal health care (Kuwait), and I'm glad we have that. I have friends who don't have private insurance and I am so glad that they have this safety net.

So happy for Canada 

[AlexanderMagno 10,746]

9 hours ago, Economy said:

This is what I was thinking

 

Since medications tend to have side effects, it may not be worth it if ur only slightly above

 

But here in Canada as soon as u hit 130 many doctors already want to put u on blood pressure pills

 

But Pharmaceutical industry is more corrupt here in North America than in Europe so I wonder if in any way shape or form they have an influence

 

I know in Portugal the media talks about the value of life style as did my doctors there too... But here in Canada it's straight to the pills 

 

It bothers me. It's not that im anti medication or anything, I get it that there's times it's beneficial... But im also against the idea of immediately always jumping to that as the solution especially with more mild conditions where life style changes were even attempted yet

 

It's more than just the pharmaceutic industry.

I'm going to give you a quick answer, one that brings the discussion to the beginning of the thread: universal coverage.

In a country where the consumer (patient) buys the product (drug), who cares if I prescribe drugs to someone who doesn't really need them? As long as they don't harm them, it's ok. Well, the consumer will complain about the money, but that's not the doctor's problem, or even the government's problem. That's why guidelines can be much strict.

In a country where the consumer doesn't pay, but the government does, the scenario is completely different. Health has a cost, and the government doesn't like to pay too much. Therefore, we try to prescribe drugs when they are truly justifiable, otherwise the buyer will complain, and this time he has the power to stop us from prescribing at all (if you go over your budget for one patient, the next patient will not get the drugs he needs). Thus, universal coverage might be responsible for less strict guidelines.

And it's a way to keep the power in the hands of the doctors. If, in a universal coverage scenario, health providers start prescribing all types of medication to everyone, government will take action and will control the amount of drugs you can prescribe, and which drugs you can prescribe. Which of course can become very frustrating. If we don't overcharge the buyer (which is the government), he will let us do all we want.

Here's the article for Hypertension guidelines, do read it if you're concerned. I think they also have a few topics about sugar/glucose (based in american studies) and the latest concerns about high blood pressure.

https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/39/33/3021/5079119

 

By the way (I think this article talks about it) the only diet that has been proven through studies to help prevent high blood pressure is DASH diet (basically mediterranean). I strongly advise you to go look for it.

[Economy 53,068]

57 minutes ago, AlexanderMagno said:

It's more than just the pharmaceutic industry.

I'm going to give you a quick answer, one that brings the discussion to the beginning of the thread: universal coverage.

In a country where the consumer (patient) buys the product (drug), who cares if I prescribe drugs to someone who doesn't really need them? As long as they don't harm them, it's ok. Well, the consumer will complain about the money, but that's not the doctor's problem, or even the government's problem. That's why guidelines can be much strict.

In a country where the consumer doesn't pay, but the government does, the scenario is completely different. Health has a cost, and the government doesn't like to pay too much. Therefore, we try to prescribe drugs when they are truly justifiable, otherwise the buyer will complain, and this time he has the power to stop us from prescribing at all (if you go over your budget for one patient, the next patient will not get the drugs he needs). Thus, universal coverage might be responsible for less strict guidelines.

And it's a way to keep the power in the hands of the doctors. If, in a universal coverage scenario, health providers start prescribing all types of medication to everyone, government will take action and will control the amount of drugs you can prescribe, and which drugs you can prescribe. Which of course can become very frustrating. If we don't overcharge the buyer (which is the government), he will let us do all we want.

Here's the article for Hypertension guidelines, do read it if you're concerned. I think they also have a few topics about sugar/glucose (based in american studies) and the latest concerns about high blood pressure.

https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/39/33/3021/5079119

 

By the way (I think this article talks about it) the only diet that has been proven through studies to help prevent high blood pressure is DASH diet (basically mediterranean). I strongly advise you to go look for it.

I keep trying to read that article but my flop phone won't load the article properly

 

And I know Mediterranean diet is supposed to be good. Dr Oz a famous American Doctor thinks highly of it

 

One thing I wanna ask my doctor but haven't had a chance yet...

 

Do hypertension meds cause any kind of dependancy?

 

Like if I take them and come off of them would my blood pressure be even higher than before I started taking them?

 

Like my blood pressure used to be 130/85 to 138/94 somewhere around that range and I was put on meds

 

I decided I didn't wanna be on meds for being so slightly past borderline so I stopped taking them after a few months

 

But now my blood pressure often reaches 140 or even 150 at its worst moments (I check it often) which I wasn't getting before

[AlexanderMagno 10,746]

1 hour ago, Economy said:

I keep trying to read that article but my flop phone won't load the article properly

 

And I know Mediterranean diet is supposed to be good. Dr Oz a famous American Doctor thinks highly of it

 

One thing I wanna ask my doctor but haven't had a chance yet...

 

Do hypertension meds cause any kind of dependancy?

 

Like if I take them and come off of them would my blood pressure be even higher than before I started taking them?

 

Like my blood pressure used to be 130/85 to 138/94 somewhere around that range and I was put on meds

 

I decided I didn't wanna be on meds for being so slightly past borderline so I stopped taking them after a few months

 

But now my blood pressure often reaches 140 or even 150 at its worst moments (I check it often) which I wasn't getting before

Mediterranean diet is the best (living in Portugal, it's difficult to imagine not eating mediterranean ). When scientists and doctors found that mediterranean/south europe people had less cardiovascular diseases, they studied and discovered it was based on the diet.

 

As for your question: what drugs were you taking and when did you stop taking them?

That kind of rebound effect is, I think, only documented when the discontinuation of the medication is abrupt, and mostly with beta-blockers (which are the only group of anti hypertensive drugs which mechanism of action can explain such behaviour).

But I don't think it should last forever. In fact, there are a few studies that show that withdrawal of medication is possible and people can remain normotensive. So it's not common.

 

(it should also be noted that population with blood pressure as low as yours is not exactly the main target for these studies, since you're barely at risk for disease, so it might be harder to find quality answers)

Remember that blood pressure is the highest during the afternoon.

 

https://www.cochrane.org

This site is importante. Very important. General public doesn't really know much about it, but basically this is where you can find the top studies about health. Cochrane does systematic reviews and meta-analysis, which gather all the studies from a same issue and reaches a global conclusion. So, if you have any doubt, you can look it up here (instead of Google, where you'll find every type of study and website, despite its quality) and the information is 100% trust-worthy.

For example, with your case:

https://www.cochrane.org/CD006742/HTN_benefits-of-antihypertensive-drugs-for-mild-hypertension-are-unclear

[Economy 53,068]

12 minutes ago, AlexanderMagno said:

Mediterranean diet is the best (living in Portugal, it's difficult to imagine not eating mediterranean ). When scientists and doctors found that mediterranean/south europe people had less cardiovascular diseases, they studied and discovered it was based on the diet.

 

As for your question: what drugs were you taking and when did you stop taking them?

That kind of rebound effect is, I think, only documented when the discontinuation of the medication is abrupt, and mostly with beta-blockers (which are the only group of anti hypertensive drugs which mechanism of action can explain such behaviour).

But I don't think it should last forever. In fact, there are a few studies that show that withdrawal of medication is possible and people can remain normotensive. So it's not common.

 

(it should also be noted that population with blood pressure as low as yours is not exactly the main target for these studies, since you're barely at risk for disease, so it might be harder to find quality answers)

Remember that blood pressure is the highest during the afternoon.

 

https://www.cochrane.org

This site is importante. Very important. General public doesn't really know much about it, but basically this is where you can find the top studies about health. Cochrane does systematic reviews and meta-analysis, which gather all the studies from a same issue and reaches a global conclusion. So, if you have any doubt, you can look it up here (instead of Google, where you'll find every type of study and website, despite its quality) and the information is 100% trust-worthy.

For example, with your case:

https://www.cochrane.org/CD006742/HTN_benefits-of-antihypertensive-drugs-for-mild-hypertension-are-unclear

I was only a low dose of 2 drugs

 

5 mg of bisoprolol and 5mg of norvasc.

 

I know bisoprolol is a beta blocker but but I don't know about norvasc

 

Anyway so in a few months my blood pressure should return to its base? Cuz yes I did stop it abruptly

 

And yeah I miss the food in Portugal... Although in Canada we have more diversity of culture foods and restaurants, the quality is lower and to a large extent is mostly junk food.

 

Our obesity rate is only a few percentage points below USA

 

Here in Canada fast food is way way cheaper than restaurants (less than half the cost) so especially poorer people eat only garbage if they go out... And they end up eating garbage at home too

 

I try to eat healthy including my fav soup Soupa de feijão

 

Edit: just read the last link u posted. That's basically why I stopped

 

I didn't think it was worth paying money plus whatever side effects there could be when my blood pressure is only slightly high

[AlexanderMagno 10,746]

40 minutes ago, Economy said:

 

5 mg of bisoprolol and 5mg of norvasc.

 

I know bisoprolol is a beta blocker but but I don't know about norvasc

 

I seriously have to read american guidelines. Norvasc is a calcium channel blockers. I have no idea why would your doctor prescribe to someone with mild hypertension and 26 years old those two drugs. Honestly, a calcium channel blocker is about third-line drug for hypetensive patients, and you're not even that (so, for someone who truly has high blood pressure, I'd try two or three drugs before introducing CCB). And two drugs immediately before trying one single drug? Sounds too much for you. Truly, that would never happen with universal coverage  really, you'll see canadian guidelines change immensely if universal coverage happens.

 

40 minutes ago, Economy said:

 Anyway so in a few months my blood pressure should return to its base? Cuz yes I did stop it abruptly

Yes, I'd expect this. It's not a common situation, but if you ended it abruptly and not a long time ago, I'd give a few months (keep the exercise and healthy food)

 

40 minutes ago, Economy said:

Here in Canada fast food is way way cheaper than restaurants (less than half the cost) so especially poorer people eat only garbage if they go out... And they end up eating garbage at home too

 

I try to eat healthy including my fav soup Soupa de feijão

 

Yeah, in Portugal fast food is of course cheaper as well, and it has been more and more established  but it's not strange for us to eat a mediterranean diet.

We use a lot of olive oil, which is great.

Lots of fish (grilled and boiled).

Lots of vegetables.

Sopa de feijão é bom  soup is great because it provides vegetables and fills the stomach so that you don't eat too much of the main dish.

(if you look for DASH, you'll find lots of recipes and healthy dishes. It has shown lots of benefits, and it's not that hard to follow https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/dash-diet/art-20048456 but they might have an official site)

[Economy 53,068]

1 minute ago, AlexanderMagno said:

I seriously have to read american guidelines. Norvasc is a calcium channel blockers. I have no idea why would your doctor prescribe to someone with mild hypertension and 26 years old those two drugs. Honestly, a calcium channel blocker is about third-line drug for hypetensive patients, and you're not even that (so, for someone who truly has high blood pressure, I'd try two or three drugs before introducing CCB). And two drugs immediately before trying one single drug? Sounds too much for you. Truly, that would never happen with universal coverage  really, you'll see canadian guidelines change immensely if universal coverage happens.

 

Yes, I'd expect this. It's not a common situation, but if you ended it abruptly and not a long time ago, I'd give a few months (keep the exercise and healthy food)

 

Yeah, in Portugal fast food is of course cheaper as well, and it has been more and more established  but it's not strange for us to eat a mediterranean diet.

We use a lot of olive oil, which is great.

Lots of fish (grilled and boiled).

Lots of vegetables.

Sopa de feijão é bom  soup is great because it provides vegetables and fills the stomach so that you don't eat too much of the main dish.

Yeah. As I said, here they push meds a lot for every little thing that's why u have to be skeptical and really have a frank talk with your doctor to know when u truly actually need it

 

And I make my sopa de feijão with: feijão, grão de bico, carne, couves, cenora, and macarrão in addition to the obvious spices so the nutrition is aboundant!

 

I hope I spelled everything right. My Portuguese is rusty these days. I get a headache speaking it all day everytime I go visit my fam in Portugal and have to speak it all day cuz it takes so much thinking to remember all the words 

[AlexanderMagno 10,746]

3 minutes ago, Economy said:

Yeah. As I said, here they push meds a lot for every little thing that's why u have to be skeptical and really have a frank talk with your doctor to know when u truly actually need it

 

And I make my sopa de feijão with: feijão, grão de bico, carne, couves, cenora, and macarrão in addition to the obvious spices so the nutrition is aboundant!

 

I hope I spelled everything right. My Portuguese is rusty these days. I get a headache speaking it all day everytime I go visit my fam in Portugal and have to speak it all day cuz it takes so much thinking to remember all the words 

you just missed "cenoura", everything else was spot on haha your portuguese is still perfect! I hope you enjoy your stay, if you need any guidance let me know   

[Economy 53,068]

Just now, AlexanderMagno said:

you just missed "cenoura", everything else was spot on haha your portuguese is still perfect! I hope you enjoy your stay, if you need any guidance let me know   

What part of Portugal are u from?

 

My family is close to Coimbra and that's also the area I used to live in as a kid so it's the part of Portugal I know best

 

I travelled a few times to Porto, Lisboa, and been to agueda, Figueira da Fox, Tomar and a few other cities I don't remember their names. I've also been atraz dos montes once to visit a couple we knew. Talk about the end of the world

 

But Coimbra and cities and towns around there is the area I know best