Here's why Leaving Neverland is a lie

[Gaga4stef 112]

I haven't seen the documentary yet, but my first thought upon hearing some of the details was, "who abused Michael?" Not that it's any defense for his alleged wrong doing but it's very likely he was himself a victim of abuse.

The other thought was would someone with as much to lose as he had to lose really be so stupid as to risk it all in such a reckless way? Then I reminded myself this is not the behavior of a mentally healthy or stable individual so his judgement or lack of such is really no basis for arguing the details disclosed in the documentary.

[Evolve 571]

36 minutes ago, Adakam said:

Just answer one thing, what if he is in fact lying and made everything up? What if I dont like you, I decide to accuse you of sexual abuse to ruin your life or to get money from you?

Just answer one thing: what if he's in fact telling the truth and y'all let MJ get away just because he's a superstar?

[Chickens in Malibu 7,873]

33 minutes ago, Alex Spade said:

This is such a complex and emotive topic. Trauma itself is an even more complex topic to explore and understand.

I feel we too easily apply a 'logical' and 'rational' lense when trying to understand trauma. Trauma is messy, it's unpredictable, and it is turbulent. 

Are they lying in this documentary? Or was it that the nature of what they have detailed was disassociated in the past when they were questioned and hidden within their mind until their mind thought they could deal with what happened? 

Our minds suppress memories to protect us. Facing the reality of past sexual abuse is challenging and denial is a huge obstacle to overcome. Dissociating from the past is very common with trauma and is further worsened when the victim has idolized or respected the person who has betrayed them. Their sense of reality and understanding can be heavily disrupted and blurred. 

Although it seems somewhat odd for a person to partake in defending the very person who harmed them and then to later backflip and have counter claims - it only suggests the complexity of trauma and the way the mind works. Both consciously and unconsciously with putting together the pieces of past traumatic experiences. What could be someone's truth years ago, could shift as their mind opens the past memories that were sealed to protect themselves from the harsh reality of what happened.

As the puzzle pieces come together, our views on past traumatic experiences can become more informed and we may shift in our opinions on what really happened. 

I see your points and resonate with what you are saying as I believe we each have valid contributions to this topic. However, trauma is complex. It can defy logic and what seems rational.

I think within these points we are negating the complexity of trauma and the ways the mind seeks to protect itself. 

You see, I agree with the memory suppression part. You may forget some details as is with Dr. Ford's case. That's something scientifically confirmed.

What I don't agree with, is the love part. Loving someone who traumatized as kid, until you're 31 years old is not proven to be in anyway related to trauma. It may be a choice, but it's not necessarily trauma related behavior. We can speculate. But neither of us is an expert on the matter.

Here's the thing though, maybe instead of being one-sided, the producers should've invited psychologists to try to explain these uncommon patterns? They didn't? Why is that?

Maybe they weren't too concerned about the credibility and the scientific basis of these claims. They're more interested in a media storm and buzz that generates money.

[Judaz 741]

I think you should put I think before leaving Neverland in the title of your thread.

[derpmonster 22,412]

1 hour ago, Timmers said:

When I was being molested, I didn't know it was abuse. I STILL, 20 years later, have a hard time processing my sexual relationship at 6 years old as abuse. Child molestation is not a violent experience most of the time. It is a very personal experience where someone important in your life tells you "I want to show you this, and I want to do it with you, because you are special compared to everyone else." It's called grooming.

And that's what Michael did to his victims. Wade, the dancer, testified against Michael's accusers because he didn't think Michael could do anything bad to anyone. He was his best friend, a father figure, and a lover. But at ages 7-14, when he was being molested, he didn't know any of that. He just saw Michael as a god and the center of the universe. Michael told him he loved him and that he was the best part of his life. He didn't realize that he had been abused until he had a son of his own years after Michael died and started imagining someone treating his son the way Michael had treated him. And even now, years after telling someone for the first time that it happened and after speaking out publicly, he still loves Michael. 

My abuser wasn't an abuser. He was my babysitter's son, the oldest kid in the house, and if he wanted to be my friend then I was more important than the other kids. What we did made me special. He told me it was our secret and that you only do it with friends you really love. 

It is very hard to talk about this, but I believe you can understand and aren't just here as a closed minded Michael fanatic. This is the last I will exert the mental stress to defend these men or share my own experiences in this thread. Thank you. 

Thank you for sharing. It is horrible that there isn't more of an attempt at empathy by people who want to judge and not understand.

[derpmonster 22,412]

28 minutes ago, nicolasrumet said:

What I don't agree with, is the love part. Loving someone who traumatized as kid, until you're 31 years old is not proven to be in anyway related to trauma. It may be a choice, but it's not necessarily trauma related behavior. We can speculate. But neither of us is an expert on the matter.

What proof do you want?

https://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/loving-your-abuser

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=can+you+love+your+abuser

 

Your ignorance is really making me angry as a childhood sexual assault/abuse survivor. Here's a simple concept: listen to people who are survivors about their experience instead of imposing your external logic on their trauma.

[Chickens in Malibu 7,873]

32 minutes ago, derpmonster said:

What proof do you want?

https://www.selfgrowth.com/articles/loving-your-abuser

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=can+you+love+your+abuser

 

Your ignorance is really making me angry as a childhood sexual assault/abuse survivor. Here's a simple concept: listen to people who are survivors about their experience instead of imposing your external logic on their trauma.

You see the second article talks about people ignoring abuse and forcing themselves to accept it because the person is their parent/husband/boyfriend and lives with them all the time etc... I can understand that.

But I simply can't understand how you GO OUT of your way defending your abuser who's not part of your family. You don't live with them. They're not your partner. You know what they did to you is utterly wrong. You don't even have to see them at all. You're 31 (fully matured). But instead you go on TV praising and defending them voluntarily and then two years later you claim that you were abused (not in some therapy session or anything, but in a court case where you're asking for money).

What you guys are saying is the pure definition of slippery slope, taking an issue "trauma" and going way too far with it to justify things that aren't really justified by trauma.

I'm sorry but regardless of what you guys say, I'm always going to scrutinize someone who claims rape/abuse in a monetary lawsuit. There's always a possibility of different motive, especially when these allegations appeared right after he was denied the chance to direct Michael Jackson's show by his Estate.

Don't be naive people.

[Adakam 2]

1 hour ago, Evolve said:

Just answer one thing: what if he's in fact telling the truth and y'all let MJ get away just because he's a superstar?

Answer mine first, stop evading

[Regina George 59,387]

2 hours ago, Evolve said:

Yeah, everyone believes it's a lie because MJ is the king of pop. Sure thing. That's why everyone was afraid to come out in the first place. Y'all stoned R Kelly, you should do the same with MJ. You should be ashamed of yourselves for accusing people that went through traumatic experiences of lying.

There’s literally video of R Kelly peeing on minor and he married one. There’s no proof of Michael doing anything - there are more proofs that actually show us that accusers are lying. I’m usually not the one to side with the accused ones but this docu series is obviously a bull.. and yes I watched it in full.

[Chickens in Malibu 7,873]

55 minutes ago, Judaz said:

I think you should put I think before leaving Neverland in the title of your thread.

"In mid-2011 Robson was working on Cirque du Soleil’s tribute to Jackson. But the project reportedly didn’t end well: Robson was allegedly low on funds after getting fired from the show — which led some to allege that he ultimately filed his lawsuit against Jackson out of desperation."

https://www.oxygen.com/martinis-murder/michael-jackson-accuser-wade-robson-leaving-neverland

I'm sorry but when you base an entire documentary on someone with so many inconsistencies, praising MJ after his death, working on his tribute show in Las Vegas, but only few months later when MJ's estate drops you from the project, oh you discovered you've been sexually abused! What a miracle

Give me a break. It screams moneygrab... Do your own research guys

[Regina George 59,387]

 

[melon 3,383]

I don’t claim to be an expert whatsoever on sexual abuse/MJ’s case but here’s a quick thought...

if you listen to what these two men say, they do not mention any violence, they specifically say MJ was gentle/loving.  In my mind therefore it makes sense they particularly struggled to see this as abuse and is likely why they testified for MJ.  

most people will equate sexual abuse/assault with violent acts, abuse after all doesn’t conjure up the image of a groomed relationship where the minor has been convinced they are loved.

couple that with the fact that the abuser was the world’s biggest star and surely everyone around you was saying he’s not an abuser, people envy you for being in this position and still people say this.

I am sure that is why these men have struggled/conflicted reasons for why they didn’t come forward earlier and why they are doing so now, the above seems the major factor.

just to reiterate before fans attack me, I do not know whether the above is true or not, it is just my thoughts on why these men did not come forward earlier/have “changed their minds”

[Lord Temptation 11,209]

The witchhunt against Michael Jackson got thrown out of court two decades ago. This is old news. Not gonna watch the doco.

[Rio 5,088]

4 hours ago, Evolve said:

Yeah, everyone believes it's a lie because MJ is the king of pop. Sure thing. That's why everyone was afraid to come out in the first place. Y'all stoned R Kelly, you should do the same with MJ. You should be ashamed of yourselves for accusing people that went through traumatic experiences of lying.

R Kelly had way more evidence against him, even in his lyrics. MJ does not. Innocent until proven guilty.

[OMonster 14,579]

A lot of you guys in here are stuck in an echo chamber. 

Free yourselves from it, and look at the facts. 

Remove personal bias, remove media bias, remove political bias... isolate yourself, and use some objectivity. 

This excessively left approach to the '#MeToo' era is dangerous and socially jeopardising. 

Free yourselves from the indoctrination of it all and you'll see the world in a much clearer way.