Here's why Leaving Neverland is a lie

[Chickens in Malibu 7,873]

17 minutes ago, Timmers said:

When I was being molested, I didn't know it was abuse. I STILL, 20 years later, have a hard time processing my sexual relationship at 6 years old as abuse. Child molestation is not a violent experience most of the time. It is a very personal experience where someone important in your life tells you "I want to show you this, and I want to do it with you, because you are special compared to everyone else." It's called grooming.

And that's what Michael did to his victims. Wade, the dancer, testified against Michael's accusers because he didn't think Michael could do anything bad to anyone. He was his best friend, a father figure, and a lover. But at ages 7-14, when he was being molested, he didn't know any of that. He just saw Michael as a god and the center of the universe. Michael told him he loved him and that he was the best part of his life. He didn't realize that he had been abused until he had a son of his own years after Michael died and started imagining someone treating his son the way Michael had treated him. And even now, years after telling someone for the first time that it happened and after speaking out publicly, he still loves Michael. 

My abuser wasn't an abuser. He was my babysitter's son, the oldest kid in the house, and if he wanted to be my friend then I was more important than the other kids. What we did made me special. He told me it was our secret and that you only do it with friends you really love. 

It is very hard to talk about this, but I believe you can understand and aren't just here as a closed minded Michael fanatic. This is the last I will exert the mental stress to defend these men or share my own experiences in this thread. Thank you. 

I am not questioning your personal experience, as I have no insight into it. I will neither affirm it or deny it as that's your personal life.

I am talking about this public matter where we have some insight. My question was how did he explain the fact that he participated in VMA tribute to MJ after he passed away and wore his gloves. How did he explain that he testified as an adult (27 years old) that there was nothing remotely inappropriate done with MJ? Did he not know what sexual assault is at the time? This is the same guy who claims there was ORAL SEX involved. I mean give me a break. If he's 31 at the time and he doesn't know that oral sex with a child is wrong, he has to be lying sorry. 

[Alex Spade 78]

4 minutes ago, nicolasrumet said:

The facts in R Kelly's case point to guilt. The facts in Michael Jackson's case only point to testimonies from people who previously testified under oath that he did not abuse them, and only changed their mind after he passed away and filed a lawsuit for money.

I'm sorry, but if someone traumatized me, the least I can do while i'm an adult is to keep their distance, not stick up for them, and even participate in their VMA tribute after they pass away.

Give me a break. I'm not going to believe anyone who claims "sexual abuse/trauma" when the facts don't add up. We'll be leaving in a dangerous world if that becomes the standard. And if you think it's okay, you never know when you're next and someone accuses you and you'll lose all of your life as a result.

This is such a complex and emotive topic. Trauma itself is an even more complex topic to explore and understand.

I feel we too easily apply a 'logical' and 'rational' lense when trying to understand trauma. Trauma is messy, it's unpredictable, and it is turbulent. 

Are they lying in this documentary? Or was it that the nature of what they have detailed was disassociated in the past when they were questioned and hidden within their mind until their mind thought they could deal with what happened? 

Our minds suppress memories to protect us. Facing the reality of past sexual abuse is challenging and denial is a huge obstacle to overcome. Dissociating from the past is very common with trauma and is further worsened when the victim has idolized or respected the person who has betrayed them. Their sense of reality and understanding can be heavily disrupted and blurred. 

Although it seems somewhat odd for a person to partake in defending the very person who harmed them and then to later backflip and have counter claims - it only suggests the complexity of trauma and the way the mind works. Both consciously and unconsciously with putting together the pieces of past traumatic experiences. What could be someone's truth years ago, could shift as their mind opens the past memories that were sealed to protect themselves from the harsh reality of what happened.

As the puzzle pieces come together, our views on past traumatic experiences can become more informed and we may shift in our opinions on what really happened. 

I see your points and resonate with what you are saying as I believe we each have valid contributions to this topic. However, trauma is complex. It can defy logic and what seems rational.

I think within these points we are negating the complexity of trauma and the ways the mind seeks to protect itself. 

[Jakkusan 791]

21 minutes ago, RichAssPiss said:

You demonstrate absolutely no compassion nor understanding of sexual trauma. People who have been sexually abused are often groomed to love their abusers. They think of them as family, sometimes they literally are family. It can take years into adulthood to accept that you were abused, even longer to speak out or confront your abuser. There are many cases like this. This is why there is activism to overturn statutes of limitation on rape and sexual abuse, especially of minors. Many people do not immediately report, and need years of counseling before they can come forward.

Thank you. I can’t believe the guy who started this thread thinks he’s some kind of expert on sexual abuse and trauma. It makes me sick, quite frankly. 

[SEANGT 4,905]

39 minutes ago, nicolasrumet said:

How was it addressed?

How can you participate in the VMA tribute of your "sexual abuser" after he PASSED AWAY. You have nothing left to gain from him anymore. So can you please explain to me?

it's part of being abused for years in childhood by someone telling you they love you and if anyone finds out about your sexual activities that both of your lives are over. It's trauma. It gets put away in a box so you can survive. Eventually your brain cannot keep it contained and you get triggered. It comes out. You have a mental breakdown. This can happen decades later. it happens all the time. it's happened to me. 

 

edit - to add, this is NOT "Repressed memory" which is not a real thing at all. dissociation is what this is called. dissociation is real. You can be aware something happened but keep the bad feelings about it locked away until you are ready or have to deal with it. 

[Jakkusan 791]

5 minutes ago, nicolasrumet said:

I am not questioning your personal experience, as I have no insight into it. I will neither affirm it or deny it as that's your personal life.

I am talking about this public matter where we have some insight. My question was how did he explain the fact that he participated in VMA tribute to MJ after he passed away and wore his gloves. How did he explain that he testified as an adult (27 years old) that there was nothing remotely inappropriate done with MJ? Did he not know what sexual assault is at the time? This is the same guy who claims there was ORAL SEX involved. I mean give me a break. If he's 31 at the time and he doesn't know that oral sex with a child is wrong, he has to be lying sorry. 

Just stop. Seriously.

[Antoni 5,332]

5 minutes ago, nicolasrumet said:

I am not questioning your personal experience, as I have no insight into it. I will neither affirm it or deny it as that's your personal life.

I am talking about this public matter where we have some insight. My question was how did he explain the fact that he participated in VMA tribute to MJ after he passed away and wore his gloves. How did he explain that he testified as an adult (27 years old) that there was nothing remotely inappropriate done with MJ? Did he not know what sexual assault is at the time? This is the same guy who claims there was ORAL SEX involved. I mean give me a break. If he's 31 at the time and he doesn't know that oral sex with a child is wrong, he has to be lying sorry. 

You are not looking for answers, you are looking for people who agree with you. I have blocked all of your future posts and suggest others do the same.

[Didymus 34,379]

So tired of the "here's a YouTube video to educate you" format here. So embarrassing. You do realize this is sexual abuse we're talking about here, right? You wanna use a fanmade video to battle a four hour exhaustive documentary that you probably haven't even seen? Right.

[Chickens in Malibu 7,873]

10 minutes ago, SEANGT said:

it's part of being abused for years in childhood by someone telling you they love you and if anyone finds out about your sexual activities that both of your lives are over. It's trauma. It gets put away in a box so you can survive. Eventually your brain cannot keep it contained and you get triggered. It comes out. You have a mental breakdown. This can happen decades later. it happens all the time. it's happened to me. 

Okay, and if you're traumatized for that many years, is it also trauma that as 31 year old adult you keep defending, praising, idolizing the person that traumatized you? I'm not sure what your source is, but you may wanna consult a psychologist on the matter. I've never heard of trauma survivors actually loving people who caused them the trauma.

As I said, the least you can do while traumatized, is to keep the distance of your abuser, ESPECIALLY when they are not your family and you don't have to go on TV out of the blue to defend them.

I guess the trauma stopped when he filed a lawsuit for millions of dollars?

[Didymus 34,379]

51 minutes ago, nicolasrumet said:

I don't think Gaga ever said she didn't know it was rape?

She literally said she thought "it was just what adults do" at Swinefest before performing Swine.

[Chickens in Malibu 7,873]

3 minutes ago, Didymus said:

So tired of the "here's a YouTube video to educate you" format here. So embarrassing. You do realize this is sexual abuse we're talking about here, right? You wanna use a fanmade video to battle a four hour exhaustive documentary that you probably haven't even seen? Right.

It doesn't matter what format it is.

Give me a single fact from the video that is false? If all I'm seeing is true, and these are mostly his own past statement, and his own behavior (like participating in the VMAs tribute). So I don't think there's much dispute as to what's accurate in there.

[SEANGT 4,905]

1 minute ago, nicolasrumet said:

Okay, and if you're traumatized for that many years, is it also trauma that as 31 year old adult you keep defending, praising, idolizing the person that traumatized you? I'm not sure what your source is, but you may wanna consult a psychologist on the matter. I've never heard of trauma survivors actually loving people who caused them the trauma.

As I said, the least you can do while traumatized, is to keep the distance of your abuser, ESPECIALLY when they are not your family and you don't have to go on TV out of the blue to defend them.

I guess the trauma stopped when he filed a lawsuit for millions of dollars?

um. yes. that's what i'm saying and that's a fact. You can google it yourself instead of being rude and dismissing the idea of sexual assault trauma. 

[Didymus 34,379]

Just now, nicolasrumet said:

It doesn't matter what format it is.

Yes it does. You're all so high and mighty about how you guys have done your "research" and the best you can do is watch fanmade YouTube video's and fansites disguised as legal debunkers? Most of you guys are still refusing to see the documentary but are the ones telling us we aren't making enough of an effort for devoting four plus hours to knowing what we're talking about (the documentary that is, not necessarily Michael's past). It's insulting and totally unnecessary.

[Chickens in Malibu 7,873]

1 minute ago, Didymus said:

She literally said she thought "it was just what adults do" at Swinefest before performing Swine.

She might've said that AT THE TIME (when she was 17) she thought it was what adults too. But I'm disputing is whether she said that she thought it was normal until 2014 when she opened up about it.

That is not true. She knew it was rape for the early years of her career. She simply wanted to keep it a secret.

So no this guy's story is not like Gaga. You really can't be 31 years old and not know what pedophilia is, unless you're intellectually deficient or something, which he clearly isn't.

[Alex Spade 78]

2 minutes ago, nicolasrumet said:

Okay, and if you're traumatized for that many years, is it also trauma that as 31 year old adult you keep defending, praising, idolizing the person that traumatized you? I'm not sure what your source is, but you may wanna consult a psychologist on the matter. I've never heard of trauma survivors actually loving people who caused them the trauma.

As I said, the least you can do while traumatized, is to keep the distance of your abuser, ESPECIALLY when they are not your family and you don't have to go on TV out of the blue to defend them.

I guess the trauma stopped when he filed a lawsuit for millions of dollars?

I responded to your concerns in my original post and as a researcher in trauma, I believe you are not seeing the complexity of what trauma really is. 

I value your input and that you are expressing your truth, but it would be beneficial in observing scholarly research or finding easily assessable information on trauma to understand the nature of trauma. 

[Didymus 34,379]

Just now, nicolasrumet said:

So no this guy's story is not like Gaga. You really can't be 31 years old and not know what pedophilia is, unless you're intellectually deficient or something, which he clearly isn't.

Except Gaga was abused by some unknown producer and these men are talking about having sleepovers with the most famous and desired artist of the whole world. How is it not predictable that things become far more complex with this extra dimension, especially when they were superfans?

Just in general I'm a little disgusted you're trying to make these cross-comparisons at all. It's fine, we all know you believe Michael is innocent and we're letting you be. Now let us be, sorry if we just want to talk about a friggin' documentary.