'After Neverland': Oprah analyzes Jackson’s accusations

[PartySick 162,825]

15 hours ago, Didymus said:

About credibility: it's pretty funny to me. I mean, what credibility to those hundreds of angry fans have compared to these "accusers"? None.

Ok, so how about the credibility of hundreds of kids and their parents that said nothing happened? His staff? His family? His kids? The very people in this film either claimed his innocence for years or literally testified in court that he was innocent leading to his acquittal.

His first "victim" still maintains his innocence to this and in order for his dad, the one making the claim, to get his pay off in '93 he had to sign a settlement that proclaimed MJ's innocence.

His second "victim" had a dozen legal troubles himself along with his family. Everything from perjury, fraud, and extortion to theft and making false claims of sexual assault against security guards and a certain pop icon.

Not one shred of evidence has shown his guilt. Not one. The only thing against him is a handful of testimonoies that change every time they're told. Wade idolized the man until he owed the MJ Estate legal fees. Safechuck's mom celebrated MJ's death in 2009 because of the abuse but Safechuck said he didn't "remember" his abuse until 2014?

He wasn't a normal man, I'll give you that. He was naïve which left him open to crap like this. He was a sick and troubled man who needed help for addiction and mental illness brought on by his childhood. But you'd have to be an idiot to think he was a criminal abuser when every actual fact around these cases points to his innocence.

This sh*t was put to bed 14 years ago. Again, as an actual vicitm of sexual assault, I am shocked and a bit disgusted that any of you would take this seriously.

[Morphine Prince 107,421]

15 hours ago, Didymus said:

Here's Vanity Fair's "10 Undeniable Facts About the Michael Jackson Sexual-Abuse Allegations":

1. There is no dispute that, at age 34, Michael Jackson slept more than 30 nights in a row in the same bed with 13-year-old Jordie Chandler at the boy’s house with Chandler’s mother present. He also slept in the same bed with Jordie Chandler at Chandler’s father’s house. The parents were divorced.

2. So far, five boys Michael Jackson shared beds with have accused him of abuse: Jordie Chandler, Jason Francia, Gavin Arvizo, Wade Robson, and Jimmy Safechuck. Jackson had the same nickname for Chandler and Arvizo: “Rubba.” He called Robson “Little One” and Safechuck “Applehead.”

3. Jackson paid $25 million to settle the Chandlers’ lawsuit, with $18 million going to Jordie, $2.5 million to each of the parents, and the rest to lawyers. Jackson said he paid that sum to avoid something “long and drawn out.” Francia also received $2.4 million from Jackson.

4. Michael Jackson suffered from the skin discoloration disease vitiligo. Jordie Chandler drew a picture of the markings on the underside of Jackson’s penis. His drawings were sealed in an envelope. A few months later, investigators photographed Jackson’s genitalia. The photographs matched Chandler’s drawings.

5. The hallway leading to Jackson’s bedroom was a serious security zone covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.

6. Jackson had an extensive collection of adult erotic material he kept in a suitcase next to his bed, including S&M bondage photos and a study of naked boys. Forensic experts with experience in the Secret Service found the fingerprints of boys alongside Jackson’s on the same pages. Jackson also had bondage sculptures of women with ball gags in their mouths on his desk, in full view of the boys who slept there.

7. According to the Neverland staff interviewed by the Santa Barbara authorities, no one ever saw or knew of a woman spending the night with Michael Jackson, including his two spouses, Debbie Rowe or Lisa Marie Presley. Rowe, the mother of two of Jackson’s children, made it clear to the Santa Barbara authorities that she never had sex with Jackson.

8. The parents of boys Jackson shared beds with were courted assiduously and given myriad expensive gifts. Wade Robson’s mother testified in the 2005 trial that she funneled wages through Jackson’s company and was given a permanent resident visa. Jimmy Safechuck’s parents got a house. Jordie Chandler’s mother got a diamond bracelet.

9. Two of the fathers of those who have accused Jackson, Jordie Chandler and Wade Robson, committed suicide. Both were estranged from their sons at the time.

10. In a 2002 documentary, Living with Michael Jackson, Jackson told Martin Bashir there was nothing wrong with sharing his bed with boys.

Source

Anyone saying there's no reason to suspect any wrongdoing on his part, or that his behavior was entirely innocent and excusable (even in the absence of sexual assault) is just spectacularly deluded.

Oh my God I feel physically ill just reading this. 

I haven’t seen the documentary but if these are actual facts.. I have no words. 

Even if he never physically abused kids.... this is disturbing enough. 

[Whispering 18,865]

5 hours ago, nicolasrumet said:

Regarding point 4, you see this is what's tough about MJ's accusation, they seem credible on the face of it, the more you delve into the evidence, the more you think there's something off and the more you think he may be innocent:

https://themichaeljacksonallegations.com/2016/12/26/did-jordan-chandlers-description-of-michael-jacksons-penis-match-the-photographs-taken-of-the-stars-genitalia-by-the-police/

Regarding point 6, that claim was shut down in court as the court did not believe that art work was "erotic material". They were books and such...

This is a partial list of what was found: 

Page 4.

Evidence Item #508. Book with images of ‘nude teenagers and/or young adults’

Located in upstairs library area of video/game room.  The book was titled, The Fourth Sex: Adolescent Extreme, with no listed author.

The investigator noted that this book focuses on ‘adolescents and counter culture,’ contained lots of images of semi-clothed or naked ‘teenagers and/or young adults’ and actually isn’t illegal under US law.  But, it represents a tool that could be used to ‘lower the inhibitions of intended victims’ and ‘facilitate the molestation of said individuals’.

Evidence Item #509. Book with pictures of nude children.

The hard cover book is titled Cronos, by author Pere Formigeura, contains images of nude children of both sexes, as well as adults.  Same location as item #508.

Evidence Item #302.  ****ographic magazine.

The Best of Club, Issue no. 201.   Also suspected by the inspecting officer to be ‘grooming’ materials.

Page 3.

Evidence Item #505.  Books with pictures of nude children.

Three books, containing ‘photographs of nude and partially clothed children’.  The investigator noted that the books contained images of partially clothed or naked children, as well as images of nude adults with children’s faces morphed on top.  This technique may be used to sexualize and lower the inhibitions of a victim, according to the report.

Page 9.

Other items described in court filings (contained within the same document stack):

Book: ‘Boys Will be Boys,’ contains full frontal nudity of boys under the age of 14; personally inscribed by Michael Jackson.

Book: ‘In Search of Young Beauty,’ containing pictures of children, boys and girls, some nude.

Book: ‘The Boy, a Photographic Essay,’ containing images of boys, some nude.

Photograph: Noted in the document as ‘believed to be Jonathan Spence; fully nude.’

Photograph: young boy holding an umbrella, with bikini bottoms partially pulled down.

Evidence Item #363:

12 ****ographic magazines;

Evidence Item #364: ‘The Chop Suey Club’

Photo book, young adult male models, some nude.

Evidence Item #365: ****ographic books, including images of naked children.

‘The Christy Report’, nude images from the 1940s, some described as sadomasochistic.

‘Robert Maxwell Photographs,’ various images, including those of children.

Evidence Item #366: Several books, containing images of nude men and children.

Nude images of a nude male couple, another contained nude images of men from the 1800s.  Photos of teenage males nude, images of adults with childrens’ faces morphed on top, some nude photos of children.

Another book, Man: A Sexual Study of Man, described as a ‘graphic primer for homosexuals,’ including pictures of masturbation, oral and **** sex, homosexual erotica.

https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/06/21/items-discovered-police-michael-jackson/

 

 

 

 

 

[Chickens in Malibu 7,873]

6 minutes ago, Whispering said:

This is a partial list of what was found: 

Page 4.

Evidence Item #508. Book with images of ‘nude teenagers and/or young adults’

Located in upstairs library area of video/game room.  The book was titled, The Fourth Sex: Adolescent Extreme, with no listed author.

The investigator noted that this book focuses on ‘adolescents and counter culture,’ contained lots of images of semi-clothed or naked ‘teenagers and/or young adults’ and actually isn’t illegal under US law.  But, it represents a tool that could be used to ‘lower the inhibitions of intended victims’ and ‘facilitate the molestation of said individuals’.

Evidence Item #509. Book with pictures of nude children.

The hard cover book is titled Cronos, by author Pere Formigeura, contains images of nude children of both sexes, as well as adults.  Same location as item #508.

Evidence Item #302.  ****ographic magazine.

The Best of Club, Issue no. 201.   Also suspected by the inspecting officer to be ‘grooming’ materials.

Page 3.

Evidence Item #505.  Books with pictures of nude children.

Three books, containing ‘photographs of nude and partially clothed children’.  The investigator noted that the books contained images of partially clothed or naked children, as well as images of nude adults with children’s faces morphed on top.  This technique may be used to sexualize and lower the inhibitions of a victim, according to the report.

Page 9.

Other items described in court filings (contained within the same document stack):

Book: ‘Boys Will be Boys,’ contains full frontal nudity of boys under the age of 14; personally inscribed by Michael Jackson.

Book: ‘In Search of Young Beauty,’ containing pictures of children, boys and girls, some nude.

Book: ‘The Boy, a Photographic Essay,’ containing images of boys, some nude.

Photograph: Noted in the document as ‘believed to be Jonathan Spence; fully nude.’

Photograph: young boy holding an umbrella, with bikini bottoms partially pulled down.

Evidence Item #363:

12 ****ographic magazines;

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12 nudist magazines, vintage 1930s.

Evidence Item #364: ‘The Chop Suey Club’

Photo book, young adult male models, some nude.

Evidence Item #365: ****ographic books, including images of naked children.

‘The Christy Report’, nude images from the 1940s, some described as sadomasochistic.

‘Robert Maxwell Photographs,’ various images, including those of children.

Evidence Item #366: Several books, containing images of nude men and children.

Nude images of a nude male couple, another contained nude images of men from the 1800s.  Photos of teenage males nude, images of adults with childrens’ faces morphed on top, some nude photos of children.

Another book, Man: A Sexual Study of Man, described as a ‘graphic primer for homosexuals,’ including pictures of masturbation, oral and **** sex, homosexual erotica.

https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/06/21/items-discovered-police-michael-jackson/

 

Let's not be ridiculous

I mean there's a bunch of nudity in Roma. Am I now guilty or something? Wtf is wrong with society nowadays.

Those items were admitted in trial. They were presented by the prosecution. The court determined it was not child ****ography and the jurors unanimously agreed that they didn't prove anything.

Who knows why those books are even there. You can't be found guilty because there are some books that contain nudity are in your house, especially when they are not considered as child ****ography by the court.

[Didymus 34,380]

51 minutes ago, PartySick said:

This sh*t was put to bed 14 years ago. Again, as an actual vicitm of sexual assault, I am shocked and a bit disgusted that any of you would take this seriously.

Well, if you are a victim of sexual assault I'm shocked that you can't understand that this film was never supposed to be a hate piece againts Michael but a film about child abuse, how it happens, the emotional aftermath that comes with it and how it affects the whole family. That's why it's acclaimed, the Michael issue is just the "well, we'll never know" surface and almost no one but the Michael fans seem willing to accept that we will indeed never know (as we can't know under any circumstances about anyone alive in general btw).

I was personally quite fine believing in his innocence. What changed my mind to a certain extent was the comments of the director. He spent hours upon hours talking to these people and never got the impression he was hearing a rehearsed story. That's impressive, especially if you think even the accusers' brother, sister and grandmother got involved. I also don't understand why they would choose an independent company based documentary maker who was planning to make an exhaustive 4-hour piece if this was just about getting money (still don't understand from who they are supposed to make money). What do they gain from this?

None of that means I believe he's guilty. But I just know that his behavior towards children, even in the absence of sexual abuse, was disturbed and completely unacceptable. Calling these kids hours upon hours, keeping them from school work, sleeping in their beds because he's lonely and all that ****, it's sickening to me, not because it's vile or dirty but because it shows how selfish, egocentric and essentially careless he was. It's possible he couldn't help being like that but I still think people should've stepped in and made sure he wasn't allowed to spend that much time with children. I don't understand why so many people romanticize his behavior. To me he wasn't "childlike" at all. Things like how he wired the hallway to his bedroom so he could know if someone was coming show that he was actually pretty calculated in his behavior and aware that whatever he was doing was not actually ok.

[Didymus 34,380]

2 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Even if we'd like to say his behavior probably indicates that he molested these kids, we just simply don't know and credibility is very much something that effects this case given its history.

I never said I believed the victims. I totally agree with you, except that I find that most MJ fans actually do have a big problem with admitting Michael's behavior was inappropriate.

[giskardsb 12,565]

11 hours ago, HeavyMetalLover said:

If you learn how to use Google maybe you could do some research of your own.

Lol. Google research will find well made videos "proving" the world is flat, moon landings a hoax, climate change is fake, vaccines are bad and that Democrats ran a pedophilia ring from a pizza restaurant. 

Y'all can at least admit that MJs action were at the least "sketchy" right?   this thread reminds me of evangelicals trying to claim Trump is a "godly" man. 

[Whispering 18,865]

10 minutes ago, nicolasrumet said:

Let's not be ridiculous

I mean there's a bunch of nudity in Roma. Am I now guilty or something? Wtf is wrong with society nowadays.

Those items were admitted in trial. They were presented by the prosecution. The court determined it was not child ****ography and the jurors unanimously agreed that they didn't prove anything.

Who knows why those books are even there. You can't be found guilty because there are some books that contain nudity are in your house, especially when they are not considered as child ****ography by the court.

For watching adult nudity on Netflix? Now, who is being ridiculous here? 

If you have stacks of magazines with naked kids and groom kids and sleep in the same bed with seven year olds, and have a ferris wheel in your yard....something might just seem suspicious. 

[Chickens in Malibu 7,873]

1 minute ago, Whispering said:

For watching adult nudity on Netflix? Now, who is being ridiculous here? 

If you have stacks of magazines with naked kids and groom kids and sleep in the same bed with seven year olds, and have a ferris wheel in your yard....something might just seem suspicious. 

But Michael Jackson is mentally ill, in the sense that he thinks he's a child. He always says it. He acts like one. He plays with children thinking it's okay. His mental age is like 10.

Being mentally ill doesn't necessarily mean you're a pedophile. Pedophiles are people who have sexual contacts with children, not people with ferris wheels in their yards.

And quite frankly if I had hundreds of books in my mansion, there's a chance you'll find some nudity in some of them. That's just not conclusive. To be convicted of such things, it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (that's the legal standard). I hope you realize what that means. When there is simply a reasonable doubt about anything, the case just falls apart. We're not supposed to convict people because there are some books that contain nudity and are not ****ographic. 

[SEANGT 5,481]

this documentary and ensuing interview were amazing examples of what it's like to grow up and not know how to deal with a traumatic past. I do not have sexual abuse experiences, but other forms of childhood abuse have happened to me. The way their trauma affected their lives and how they were just constantly nervous or anxious and didn't know why. didn't know who they were. didn't know how they were feeling ever. the constant dissociation. That's my life to a T. I'm so happy I started going to therapy a couple years ago. I've been able to get a lot better, but I'm still working on it. 

[Didymus 34,380]

6 hours ago, nicolasrumet said:

https://themichaeljacksonallegations.com/2016/12/26/did-jordan-chandlers-description-of-michael-jacksons-penis-match-the-photographs-taken-of-the-stars-genitalia-by-the-police/

Omg can you guys stop linking that fansite to us all? Like, sorry but there is nothing credible about that page. If you're gonna refer to a webpage for all of your information about legal matters at least have it be mjfacts.com or something, they actually do a stellar job of remaining objective.

Reading through that page is just a laugh. Trying so hard omg, like how Michael wasn't immediately arrested after the photographs were taken, how Sneddon stated that his assessments were based on belief, how Feldman tried to bar the photos from court, how is any of that relevant? If anything it shows how little those wegpage owners know about legal cases.

And The Smoking Gun as a credible source, really? I checked their history after reading about them on mjfacts.com and it's actually an anti-Michael trash tabloid that had no sources whatsoever for the infamous "Chandler said he was circumcised" claim. Nice source for Michael fan to use. I guess anything is up for grabs if it fits your favorite storyline.

No one knows what that sketch looks like. No one has access to it, even Michael's lawyers couldn't get it back. All we know is that the prosecution has been confident it did match with the photographs and Michael's defense kept barring their use as evidence in court. I do hope we'll see them one day though. Until then, I recommend you also read mjfacts' version of the same story.

[SEANGT 5,481]

1 hour ago, PartySick said:

Ok, so how about the credibility of hundreds of kids and their parents that said nothing happened? His staff? His family? His kids? The very people in this film either claimed his innocence for years or literally testified in court that he was innocent leading to his acquittal.

You can't prove innocence for any other crime this way. Do you trot out people a murderer didn't murder to prove something? No. This is ridiculous. Do you really believe this is a good point???

His first "victim" still maintains his innocence to this and in order for his dad, the one making the claim, to get his pay off in '93 he had to sign a settlement that proclaimed MJ's innocence.

You literally explained this one away yourself. He had to sign a settlement and they can't speak out. Even if this accusation isn't credible - it has nothing to do with the others, see the above point. 

His second "victim" had a dozen legal troubles himself along with his family. Everything from perjury, fraud, and extortion to theft and making false claims of sexual assault against security guards and a certain pop icon.

see above. also this sounds like some smear campaign crap that you only see on "MJ is innocent dot com" or whatever y'all keep citing. Not that it matters bc again we're not talking about them. 

Not one shred of evidence has shown his guilt. Not one. The only thing against him is a handful of testimonoies that change every time they're told. Wade idolized the man until he owed the MJ Estate legal fees. Safechuck's mom celebrated MJ's death in 2009 because of the abuse but Safechuck said he didn't "remember" his abuse until 2014?

This is explained in the film! Safechuck's mom was told "MJ was a bad man" by her son before he was dead but he did not say why or go into details. Also the "changing story" thing is tired. One time the guy testified he was a child, and the next time he was 22 or 23 and still not dealing with his trauma...not to mention MJ reached out and triggered him and got him all ****ed up again before the court date. 

He wasn't a normal man, I'll give you that. He was naïve which left him open to crap like this. He was a sick and troubled man who needed help for addiction and mental illness brought on by his childhood. But you'd have to be an idiot to think he was a criminal abuser when every actual fact around these cases points to his innocence.

Does it.....does it tho...

This sh*t was put to bed 14 years ago. Again, as an actual vicitm of sexual assault, I am shocked and a bit disgusted that any of you would take this seriously.

I'm sorry you went through something like that. 

 

[SevenWonder 4,472]

I've said this before. My partner's brother was there. He and a friend were THERE. Yes he did. Boys were in his bed. Did he touch them? Maybe not. But who sleeps with boys?

[Andy McQueen 4,484]

4 hours ago, malazam said:

Michael when asked said that yes, he slept with the kid in discussion. He slept. The kid on the bed and MJ on the floor. People is just sick and take things out of context; that kid wouldn’t leave Michael alone, and would always ask to sleepover at Neverland.

You have not watched the documentary, have you? 

[Andy McQueen 4,484]

The MJ apologists here and on Twitter make me cringe hard, seriously.