Canada Court Allows Province To Punish Another With Energy Crisis

[Economy 53,084]

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/beta.ctvnews.ca/national/canada/2019/2/23/1_4309871.html

 

About a year ago Alberta banned BC wines and cancelled new energy deals to pressure British Columbia to stop opposing a Federally approved pipeline

 

Alberta also threatned to cause an energy crisis in British Columbia by turning off Oil and Gas flow causing prices to spike. The Province of Saskatchewan offered to join Alberta in punishing British Columbia

 

British Columbia filed the case to court saying economic sanctions on another Province are unconstitutional

 

The court ruled Alberta's legislation to cut off Oil Supply to BC is not unconstitutional so they may do this if they wish

[LOVEDRUG 11,339]

This is why federal states need to be managed

When provinces/states/territories have too much power they can cause internal chaos, just look at the US civil war

I'm not sure who's in the right here, I'd love to here it from the perspective of someone who lives in Canada

[Economy 53,084]

Just now, ARealWildMan said:

This is why federal states need to be managed

When provinces/states/territories have too much power they can cause internal chaos, just look at the US civil war

I'm not sure who's in the right here, I'd love to here it from the perspective of someone who lives in Canada

So u support more centralized Nations?

 

And this whole pipeline issue has caused more division in this country (especially Western Half of Canada) than ever before

 

Canada is loosing a fortune over oil discounts and Alberta and to a lesser degree Saskatchewan that have big energy industries are particularly affected by it

 

The Federal Government approved something... Regardless of how BC feels about it, it was not their job to try to find loop holes in the system to try to block the project (unofficially)

 

They can't say no outright because since it crosses provinces it's a federal decision

 

But they delayed Provincial construction permits, created legislation to limit oil exports from coast (essentially making pipeline useless) and staging other delay tactics to essentially create enough uncertainty to get the company to give up on building it

 

It worked, the company gave up on it and to salvage the project the Federal Government bought the project for $4.5 Billion so now we as tax payers are on the hook for it

[LOVEDRUG 11,339]

Just now, Economy said:

So u support more centralized Nations?

As long as the people within the nation have equal representation, yes

I think nations like the UK, Ireland, Norway, South Korea, New Zealand and most island nations have extremely successful systems, without a federalised division system

[Economy 53,084]

Just now, ARealWildMan said:

As long as the people within the nation have equal representation, yes

I think nations like the UK, Ireland, Norway, South Korea, New Zealand and most island nations have extremely successful systems, without a federalised division system

Portugal where I was from was also very centralized and it avoided division

 

Btw I explained the situation in detail but u quoted me before I edited it and I don't wanna type all that again so maybe u can read the comment again

 

U did say u wanted perspective

[LOVEDRUG 11,339]

6 minutes ago, Economy said:

So u support more centralized Nations?

 

And this whole pipeline issue has caused more division in this country (especially Western Half of Canada) than ever before

 

Canada is loosing a fortune over oil discounts and Alberta and to a lesser degree Saskatchewan that have big energy industries are particularly affected by it

 

The Federal Government approved something... Regardless of how BC feels about it, it was not their job to try to find loop holes in the system to try to block the project (unofficially)

 

They can't say no outright because since it crosses provinces it's a federal decision

 

But they delayed Provincial construction permits, created legislation to limit oil exports from coast (essentially making pipeline useless) and staging other delay tactics to essentially create enough uncertainty to get the company to give up on building it

 

It worked, the company gave up on it and to salvage the project the Federal Government bought the project for $4.5 Billion so now we as tax payers are on the hook for it

Why is it that BC is so opposed to the pipeline?

Obviously, I am opposed to pipelines in certain cases but I am curious as to what makes BC stand out from the other provinces?

[Economy 53,084]

42 minutes ago, ARealWildMan said:

Why is it that BC is so opposed to the pipeline?

Obviously, I am opposed to pipelines in certain cases but I am curious as to what makes BC stand out from the other provinces?

#1 BC has always been the most ecologically conscious Province

#2 the NDP there have a coalition with the Green party there right now and to maintain the green parties support the NDP have to continue to push their green agenda

#3 it's their coast that would see increased shipments

 

But a lot of these things dont make sense. BC already has a lot of tanker traffic the oil tankers won't make a lot of difference not to mention other toxic materials are already being shipped there everyday and BC never has made a peep about it but now that it's another Provinces product suddenly it's a big deal

 

It's a big issue here tho. Companies are divesting from Canada like crazy and focusing putting money into US Shale cuz Canada is very unprofitable right now

 

We already have some of the toughest environmental regulations in the world and now we added a carbon tax

 

The industry could probably survive those two higher costs on their own but when u factor in that pipeline issues are causing us to sell out oil for peanuts, the 3 things combined make it impossible for many companies to even break-even

 

At one Point Brent was like $60/barrel, WTI like $52/Barrel and Canadian Oil Sands Oil was like $18/barrel

 

Mind u the discounts fluctuate it's not usually that extreme but the point is a huge amount of money is lost

 

So it's a hot political topic here. We already lost a lot of manufacturing. If you start to loose our other big export (energy) what's Canada gonna make money out of? Air?

 

[LOVEDRUG 11,339]

3 minutes ago, Economy said:

#1 BC has always been the most ecologically conscious Province

#2 the NDP there have a coalition with the Green party there right now and to maintain the green parties support the NDP have to continue to push their green agenda

#3 it's their coast that would see increased shipments

 

But a lot of these things dont make sense. BC already has a lot of tanker traffic the oil tankers won't make a lot of difference not to mention other toxic materials are already being shipped there everyday and BC never has made a peep about it but now that it's another Provinces product suddenly it's a big deal

 

It's a big issue here tho. Companies are divesting from Canada like crazy and focusing putting money into US Shale cuz Canada is very unprofitable right now

 

We already have some of the toughest environmental regulations in the world and now we added a carbon tax

 

The industry could probably survive those two higher costs on their own but when u factor in that pipeline issues are causing us to sell out oil for peanuts, the 3 things combined make it impossible for many companies to even break-even

 

At one Point Brent was like $60/barrel, WTI like $52/Barrel and Canadian Oil Sands Oil was like $18/barrel

 

Mind u the discounts fluctuate it's not usually that extreme but the point is a huge amount of money is lost

 

So it's a hot political topic here. We already lost a lot of manufacturing. If you start to loose our other big export (energy) what's Canada gonna make money out of? Air?

 

Is there an independence movement in any of the provinces ? (other than Quebec), I can see this would be an extremely divisive issue that could make people extremely nationalistic about their province

[Economy 53,084]

4 minutes ago, ARealWildMan said:

Is there an independence movement in any of the provinces ? (other than Quebec), I can see this would be an extremely divisive issue that could make people extremely nationalistic about their province

Alberta has brought it up in the past but it never became as serious as in Quebec

 

In Quebec the last referendum had 49% of people vote to seperate while in Alberta a big poll showed only 25% favoured seperation 

 

That number could have increased tho. Alberta us very upset that they contribute so much tax dollars from their resource sector that goes towards paying for the equalization payment program but then consistently get public and political opposition from the rest of the Nation against their industry that pays for their welfare

 

Quebec is probably the 2nd largest opposers to Oil Sands Development after BC yet Quebec is the biggest receiver of the equalization payment program that Alberta is the biggest net contributer to that gets payed for by Oil

 

Albertans find it incredibly hypocritical

 

Quebec was the main reason Energy East didn't happen. A pipeline that was supposed to stretch all the way to eastern Canada to go to refineries in the Atlantic Provinces.

 

It would have to go thru Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec

 

The other 3 didn't make a huge stink about it but Quebec was dead set against it

[LOVEDRUG 11,339]

1 minute ago, Economy said:

Alberta has brought it up in the past but it never became as serious as in Quebec

 

In Quebec the last referendum had 49% of people vote to seperate while in Alberta a big poll showed only 25% favoured seperation 

 

That number could have increased tho. Alberta us very upset that they contribute so much tax dollars from their resource sector that goes towards paying for the equalization payment program but then consistently get public and political opposition from the rest of the Nation against their industry that pays for their welfare

 

Quebec is probably the 2nd largest opposers to Oil Sands Development after BC yet Quebec is the biggest receiver of the equalization payment program that Alberta is the biggest net contributer to that gets payed for by Oil

 

Albertans find it incredibly hypocritical

I see, I remember hearing about a movement for Alberta to join the US a while back but I guess support for that is even lower than separation. Which province are you from?

[Economy 53,084]

Just now, ARealWildMan said:

I see, I remember hearing about a movement for Alberta to join the US a while back but I guess support for that is even lower than separation. Which province are you from?

I'm from Ontario

 

Quebec is also the reason Energy East didn't happen. That pipeline was gonna bring Oil all the way to eastern Provinces in the Atlantic to their refineries

 

But the pipeline would have to go from Alberta through: Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec and Quebec was dead set against it

 

Ontario where I'm from is one of the most neutral provinces on this issue. Our economy is not very dependent on natural resources. Also because we're pretty average economically vs Canada as a whole so were neither big contributers to the equalization program but we're not big receivers either

 

People's opinions here also isn't as strongly for or against as in some parts of the country

 

 

[LOVEDRUG 11,339]

4 minutes ago, Economy said:

I'm from Ontario

 

Quebec is also the reason Energy East didn't happen. That pipeline was gonna bring Oil all the way to eastern Provinces in the Atlantic to their refineries

 

But the pipeline would have to go from Alberta through: Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario and Quebec and Quebec was dead set against it

 

Ontario where I'm from is one of the most neutral provinces on this issue. Our economy is not very dependent on natural resources. Also because we're pretty average economically vs Canada as a whole so were neither big contributers to the equalization program but we're not big receivers either

 

People's opinions here also isn't as strongly for or against as in some parts of the country

 

 

I'm guessing the northern territories/provinces have no connection to this, wouldn't they be able to run a pipeline through Nunavut? Or would that still have a connection through Quebec?

[Economy 53,084]

Just now, ARealWildMan said:

I'm guessing the northern territories/provinces have no connection to this, wouldn't they be able to run a pipeline through Nunavut? Or would that still have a connection through Quebec?

There's another pipeline being proposed by the natives (eagle spirit) that would go thru the territories as a way to bypass BC

 

But the pipeline would cost some $17 Billion because of the terrain it would go thru and it wouldn't end in a shipping port as favourable as the one in southern BC. So experts question whether this could ever be economical

 

But this pipeline hasn't been officially submited for approval or environmental review. It's merely an idea ATM

 

The big issue is that the 2 Provinces on both ends of the Country by the Ocean are the 2 most against pipelines which makes it complicated for Alberta that doesn't have a coast to ship it

 

Saskatchewan is pretty upset too. They have a similar economy and a resource based economy too

 

But their population is lower than Alberta's and their resource reserves are not as high as Alberta's so they are not as relevant on the debate

 

But they did offer to join Alberta if they decided to turn off the taps to BC

 

[LOVEDRUG 11,339]

2 minutes ago, Economy said:

There's another pipeline being proposed by the natives (eagle spirit) that would go thru the territories as a way to bypass BC

 

But the pipeline would cost some $17 Billion because of the terrain it would go thru and it wouldn't end in a shipping port as favourable as the one in southern BC. So experts question whether this could ever be economical

 

But this pipeline hasn't been officially submited for approval or environmental review. It's merely an idea ATM

 

The big issue is that the 2 Provinces on both ends of the Country by the Ocean are the 2 most against pipelines which makes it complicated for Alberta that doesn't have a coast to ship it

 

Saskatchewan is pretty upset too. They have a similar economy and a resource based economy too

 

But their population is lower than Alberta's and their resource reserves are not as high as Alberta's so they are not as relevant on the debate

 

But they did offer to join Alberta if they decided to turn off the taps to BC

 

Is Hudson Bay frozen over? If not, then what's Manitoba's stance? Surely, if Manitoba agreed with Alberta then surely a pipeline could be built through Saskatchewan to Hudson Bay, from there it could be shipped

Also, sorry for asking so many questions and talking so much

[Economy 53,084]

3 minutes ago, ARealWildMan said:

Is Hudson Bay frozen over? If not, then what's Manitoba's stance? Surely, if Manitoba agreed with Alberta then surely a pipeline could be built through Saskatchewan to Hudson Bay, from there it could be shipped

Also, sorry for asking so many questions and talking so much

This idea has been proposed but has its issues as well

 

The population in Manitoba especially northern Manitoba is very low and there's very little infrastructure up there or people to run a new or bigger port so that would have to be taken care of

 

Also there's 2 possible target markets for the Oil. Asia or Europe

 

BC Coast would be more ideal for Asia while Energy East would have been more idea for Europe

 

Hudson's Bay would be farther from both

 

Also ice in the coldest winters could be an issue too. They'd have to hire ice breakers adding to the cost of shipping. The East and West coast don't have that issue

 

It wouldn't be a totally impossible feat but in many aspects just isn't practice

As for how Manitoba feels about it, they rarely seem to matter in National debates maybe because their population is so small. When energy East was gonna be a thing they didn't try to block it in their land as far as I'm aware