Chromatislaps 34,562 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 When I see the meltdowns of stans on Gaga saying that she created Gaga as a persona, and that in order for Ally to come alive she had to dig down and find Stefani. I believe most fans/stans still don't understand her and don't see the bigger picture. She is all of her persona's whenever she wants: Gaga, Stefani, Joanne, Joe, Yuyi, Ally, Elusive Jazz Chanteuse, Aphrodite/Venus, Morgana Devacelli (TFM persona). With Enigma being a character/persona for her new shows, it is pretty clear she has a new aspect of herself she wants to highlight. She literally is projecting what the public wants (not just the stans). For ages people were complaining they wanted more stripped down accoustic/organic Gaga, so we got C2C, Joanne and ASIB, and during those era's people complained they wanted TFMGa back, and now she's coming full force with Enigma (most likely heavily TF/M, BTW and ARTPOP focussed and perhaps new material). She is making persona's based on what people project onto her and want from her: aka this is what ARTPOP meant, she can be anything, her ARTPOP could anything and she could mean anything. I thought I'd share this food for thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloody g 31,731 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I partially agree. I just don't think she is giving what people want, but rather what she is feeling like. I see Gaga is craving going back to weirdness and extravaganza, and so she will. I actually think she planned to release LG6 by now and have ASIB era at the same time, but you know ASIB is smashing so she will have to wait a little more. 『𝐟𝐚𝐭𝐞 𝐜𝐚𝐧𝐧𝐨𝐭 𝐛𝐞 𝐜𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐞𝐝』 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 32,745 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 I agree, kind of, but I think you also have to call out artistic laziness when it's due. All of this flip flopping from persona to persona may be interpreted as an artistic and intellectual statement (which often it has been, especially in the early years) but it can also be interpreted as a simple cop-out, meant to hide the fact that you don't really have anything to say or make of lasting value Like, sorry, but her Cheek to Cheek and Joanne "persona's" were just... boring. It's predictable that fans will say "she's transforming, how can you not get it" but what they don't get is that transformation itself is nothing laudable or worthy of automatic applause. You have to actually transform into something interesting and worth transforming into Many fans, including me, are now wondering if she's just using the transformation shtick to please (or rather, distract) the public rather than to dig deeper into her creative artistry, that's what it's about, for me anyway So yeah. I think fans keep using this "she can be anything she wants" ideology to basically defend and worship everything she does because everything can be defended and worshipped based on it. But maybe we just need to sometimes look at something and say: "that's not good enough" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorusRa2 4,978 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 8 minutes ago, Didymus said: I agree, kind of, but I think you also have to call out artistic laziness when it's due. All of this flip flopping from persona to persona may be interpreted as an artistic and intellectual statement (which often it has been, especially in the early years) but it can also be interpreted as a simple cop-out, meant to hide the fact that you don't really have anything to say or make of lasting value Like, sorry, but her Cheek to Cheek and Joanne "persona's" were just... boring. It's predictable that fans will say "she's transforming, how can you not get it" but what they don't get is that transformation itself is nothing laudable or worthy of automatic applause. You have to actually transform into something interesting and worth transforming into Many fans, including me, are now wondering if she's just using the transformation shtick to please (or rather, distract) the public rather than to dig deeper into her creative artistry, that's what it's about, for me anyway So yeah. I think fans keep using this "she can be anything she wants" ideology to basically defend and worship everything she does because everything can be defended and worshipped based on it. But maybe we just need to sometimes look at something and say: "that's not good enough" Fans have always said, “that’s not good enough.” She’s had plenty of fans jump ship. Many at BTW, even more during ARTPOP. She gained new ones with C2C and then Joanne (where she lost even more of her original fans who felt this was the final straw). With ASIB, I feel she gained some old fans back along with new ones from the GP. Sooooo, I feel like generally the commercial performances of her respective albums show that peapple definitely said, “that’s not good enough.” Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 32,745 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 34 minutes ago, HorusRa2 said: Fans have always said, “that’s not good enough.” She’s had plenty of fans jump ship. Many at BTW, even more during ARTPOP. She gained new ones with C2C and then Joanne (where she lost even more of her original fans who felt this was the final straw). With ASIB, I feel she gained some old fans back along with new ones from the GP. Sooooo, I feel like generally the commercial performances of her respective albums show that peapple definitely said, “that’s not good enough.” But then we still have so many fans who will reject that criticism and simply say they're not "getting" Gaga. This thread is one example That's why I wrote what I wrote. Of course there've been critical fans. I just find it interesting that so many other fans defend Gaga with this "she's just shapeshifting" rhetoric. The point seems to be lost on them that you can also shapeshift, well, badly Like, why do we all need to be agreed that simply giving the public what they want and shapeshifting accordingly is a good thing? In the past it only seemed to matter what the fans projected onto her, and now many fans are noticing her jump to please the general public as well (maybe even more). That makes it very predictable for many fans to check out because they just don't like the bigger picture that the OP described. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FfFfFfFF 54,014 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 41 minutes ago, Didymus said: I agree, kind of, but I think you also have to call out artistic laziness when it's due. All of this flip flopping from persona to persona may be interpreted as an artistic and intellectual statement (which often it has been, especially in the early years) but it can also be interpreted as a simple cop-out, meant to hide the fact that you don't really have anything to say or make of lasting value Like, sorry, but her Cheek to Cheek and Joanne "persona's" were just... boring. It's predictable that fans will say "she's transforming, how can you not get it" but what they don't get is that transformation itself is nothing laudable or worthy of automatic applause. You have to actually transform into something interesting and worth transforming into Many fans, including me, are now wondering if she's just using the transformation shtick to please (or rather, distract) the public rather than to dig deeper into her creative artistry, that's what it's about, for me anyway So yeah. I think fans keep using this "she can be anything she wants" ideology to basically defend and worship everything she does because everything can be defended and worshipped based on it. But maybe we just need to sometimes look at something and say: "that's not good enough" In her first 5 years she created so many extravagant and over the top personas that shock became essentially attached to her name. Her Cheek to Cheek and Joanne personas can either be the result of her desire to do the unexpected (in the sense that conventionality was the only thing left that could surprise if coming from Gaga at that point), either a pause from her usual extravagant self. And this pause means that the hype for her comeback to her Pop persona will be big since she desensitised both the GP and her fans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorusRa2 4,978 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, Didymus said: But then we still have so many fans who will reject that criticism and simply say they're not "getting" Gaga. This thread is one example That's why I wrote what I wrote. Of course there've been critical fans. I just find it interesting that so many other fans defend Gaga with this "she's just shapeshifting" rhetoric. The point seems to be lost on them that you can also shapeshift, well, badly Like, why do we all need to be agreed that simply giving the public what they want and shapeshifting accordingly is a good thing? In the past it only seemed to matter what the fans projected onto her, and now many fans are noticing her jump to please the general public as well (maybe even more). That makes it very predictable for many fans to check out because they just don't like the bigger picture that the OP described. Many fans probably defend her no matter what to counter the ones that also criticize everything she does. All I’m saying is that what you’re frustrated with is not going to change. That’s why this is a fan base...it’s going to bring in all types of people. I understand you’re frustrated with the fan base (or part of it) and with Gaga (I think to an extent), but the best you can do is filter out the bits you don’t like and be engaged when things are happening the way you like them to be. Lets see what happens with Enigma and what comes next. I’m sure there will be a return to that artistic integrity and substance you became so fond of. 💛 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 32,745 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said: Her Cheek to Cheek and Joanne personas can either be the result of her desire to do the unexpected (in the sense that conventionality was the only thing left that could surprise if coming from Gaga at that point), either a pause from her usual extravagant self. And this pause means that the hype for her comeback to her Pop persona will be big since she desensitised both the GP and her fans. I do think this has been the strategy. And I commend her and her team for being so clever (and successful, imagine if she failed and it backfired) about it But what that also means is that she chose not to continue with her brave, rebellious, reckless, avant-garde and "I don't give a **** what the public wants, my fans are my world and my everything" artistic style that many fans singled out as being so different and unique about Gaga specifically, and not her peers. That naturally creates questions about how "authentic" those first few years were, and that's of course the reason for so many fans' discomforts with the public statements that seem to confirm their doubts That's my interpretation. I'm not telling anyone they're wrong here, btw, I'm just making sure the "fans who are complaining and don't get Gaga's artistic project of shapeshifting" group is represented correctly somewhere. I feel like most fans are simplifying their complaints when they're really predictable outcomes of Gaga's choices which can't be corrected by simply stating "well, Gaga changes all the time": that's not the issue, I feel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LateToCult 36,431 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Flopplause said: Morgana (TFM persona) Did she really name a person after Lina Morgana? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 32,745 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Just now, HorusRa2 said: Many fans probably defend her no matter what to counter the ones that also criticize everything she does. All I’m saying is that what you’re frustrated with is not going to change. That’s why this is a fan base...it’s going to bring in all types of people. I understand you’re frustrated with the fan base (or part of it) and with Gaga (I think to an extent), but the best you can do is filter out the bits you don’t like and be engaged when things are happening the way you like them to be. Lets see what happens with Enigma and what comes next. I’m sure there will be a return to that artistic integrity and substance you became so fond of. 💛 Oh, I'm enjoying the last few years very much, personally. I've had my fan crisis years ago during the BTWB actually I'm still loving so many of Gaga's recent projects, I have no problem sticking around and seeing what she does. But yeah, the whole personal devotion and emotional connection thing definitely wore off for me, and I see it happening with a lot of fans right now, and I guess I feel a bit of an overprotective thing for them 'cause I get it and I kinda wanna communicate to them and to others that even if that personal connection fades away a bit, that doesn't mean they have to stop being a fan or that they can't enjoy her still, I sure do So that's why I keep repeating everywhere that there's a rationale behind their disappointment and criticism. It's predictable and I'm sure Gaga 100% knew this would happen from 2014 onwards too. But yeah, I'm very curious for Enigma as well and I hope it'll calm the fanbase down a bit I sure am excited as hell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AStarIsBorn21 3,714 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 56 minutes ago, Didymus said: I agree, kind of, but I think you also have to call out artistic laziness when it's due. All of this flip flopping from persona to persona may be interpreted as an artistic and intellectual statement (which often it has been, especially in the early years) but it can also be interpreted as a simple cop-out, meant to hide the fact that you don't really have anything to say or make of lasting value Like, sorry, but her Cheek to Cheek and Joanne "persona's" were just... boring. It's predictable that fans will say "she's transforming, how can you not get it" but what they don't get is that transformation itself is nothing laudable or worthy of automatic applause. You have to actually transform into something interesting and worth transforming into Many fans, including me, are now wondering if she's just using the transformation shtick to please (or rather, distract) the public rather than to dig deeper into her creative artistry, that's what it's about, for me anyway So yeah. I think fans keep using this "she can be anything she wants" ideology to basically defend and worship everything she does because everything can be defended and worshipped based on it. But maybe we just need to sometimes look at something and say: "that's not good enough" I just think if people don’t like who Gaga is anymore they should stop being a fan. No need to dwell on the past and force yourself and others to be miserable era after era. Obviously not liking a song or project of hers is one thing but to look at her as a person and who she is at a certain moment and think “that’s not good enough”... I find that very off putting. We all know what a kind soul she is and her outfits/materialistic things should never get in the way of that. It’s quite a reverse warholian expedition , fans were screaming at the GP to look past her clothes and the way she presents herself almost a decade ago and now we have those same fans who can’t do the same now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 CTC (Grammy winner), Joanne (2/3 singles grammy nominated) and ASIB ( Record and Song of the year nominated) are her best albums to me. And TIHTY (Oscar nominated). All of those after doing pop/dance music. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorusRa2 4,978 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 5 minutes ago, Didymus said: Oh, I'm enjoying the last few years very much, personally. I've had my fan crisis years ago during the BTWB actually I'm still loving so many of Gaga's recent projects, I have no problem sticking around and seeing what she does. But yeah, the whole personal devotion and emotional connection thing definitely wore off for me, and I see it happening with a lot of fans right now, and I guess I feel a bit of an overprotective thing for them 'cause I get it and I kinda wanna communicate to them and to others that even if that personal connection fades away a bit, that doesn't mean they have to stop being a fan or that they can't enjoy her still, I sure do So that's why I keep repeating everywhere that there's a rationale behind their disappointment and criticism. It's predictable and I'm sure Gaga 100% knew this would happen from 2014 onwards too. But yeah, I'm very curious for Enigma as well and I hope it'll calm the fanbase down a bit I sure am excited as hell I’m part of the group that loves everything she does with very few exceptions. I don’t know if it’s because I really believe that or that I project my love for Gaga on all her projects. as a fan I think I’ve struggled the most with her after ARTPOP and during C2C. I love her Jazz so long as it isn’t standalone. I need her POP either in conjunction or in addition to and it was hard waiting for ARTPOP 2 after C2C and then getting Joanne. Which, at the time was good for me because it was the album I didn’t know I needed until I got it. im excited for Enigma but I’ve been on pause cause I’ve been waiting to see what Enigma really is before I get too excited for say TMB2.0z Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromatislaps 34,562 Posted December 10, 2018 Author Share Posted December 10, 2018 14 minutes ago, LateToCult said: Did she really name a person after Lina Morgana? I think she was called Morgana Devacelli to be precise https://ladygaga.fandom.com/wiki/Morgana_Devacelli I think she was inspired yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus 32,745 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 2 minutes ago, AStarIsBorn21 said: I just think if people don’t like who Gaga is anymore they should stop being a fan. No need to dwell on the past and force yourself and others to be miserable era after era. But that's the catch: Gaga changes all the time so it's easy to just wait things out and see what happens the next era Like, I thought that's what so many fans have been shushing the naysayers with: "we'll see avant-gardeGa again, just wait for Enigma!" Well, many fans are waiting. I don't think you should stop being a fan just because you haven't liked some projects. Because, like it or not, in the whole "ordinaryGa" phase of 2014 till now she only released one original solo project, the rest were "side projects" (obviously they were huge and not side projects to her, but in the big scheme of things they are). Surely that's not enough to burn your stan card over... But yeah, ideally you'd just pick out the stuff you like, talk about that and ignore the rest. But on a discussion forum it's obviously tempting to air out your more negative opinions as well, and find comfort in the fact that there's similar opinions out there. We'll see what happens after Enigma I guess Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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