Gay men hate femme gay men

[Bebe 17,289]

1 hour ago, Givenchy said:

1. But we should be able to tell the difference between each "contribution". The fact that manly men turn me on and not others simply because I like manly men and wild sex, is different from thinking that femme gays give a bad reputation to LGBT people. They may both end up making other people feel bad about themselves or feel less desired but it's not my problem to make someone else feel desirable.

2. Please elaborate, because if you claim that gender roles and manly behaviors are taught and acquired and not something you're born with then the same thing goes for feminine features. If you're implying that I only 'act' manly because I was taught to act manly then someone who acts in a feminine way is probably that way because they somehow acquired it in their upbringing. The sword swings both ways.

3. I didn't suggest that you said that, I'm just saying that this is an example of things that people have told me and other people before, and I simply shed light on it and expressed my disagreement with it. Again, not every person who doesn't prefer a specific gender is doing so because they think someone else is lesser. A man who desires Asian women doesn't necessarily feel that way because he thinks white and black women are lesser than asian women. Sometimes it is indeed just preference.

4. Since we're talking statistics, everything seems to be based on US measures. There's a whole world beyond the United States, billions more people than the 320,000,000 population of the U.S., many of which are open and closeted gay men, lesbians, bisexual people, curious, transgender, straight... you name it, that may live by different principles or prefer a different type of people and behaviors than the U.S. So I think it's kinda biased to base something on one nation only, and these numbers only show us what the people are seeing, not their reasons for seeing what they're seeing, just like the simulated rape **** or the brutal sex in **** videos that is created to look like it's forced, doesn't necessarily mean that it's directed for an audience of rapists, because a lot of people simply like the idea and the fetish of being controlled and forced, so I think of it more as a fetish than anything.

5. Absolutely not. I personally am a bottom, and I don't see myself being in bed with someone who is too petite or delicate, mainly because I love the idea of someone being larger and stronger than me taking control, being rough and passionate..etc. and no, it's not self-hatred either because I'm perfectly fine with who I am and I'm neither closeted nor ashamed of who I am, I simply feel turned on by this image for as long as I can remember. I can't see myself being versatile either, so I wouldn't fool myself into being with someone who doesn't fit my ideal image of a relationship nor someone who, instead of giving me what I want, wants exactly what I want. People may think this is me trying to be the "woman" in my relationship and him being "the man", but I honestly don't care what the world thinks of it as long as it feels right for me.

But generally speaking, I don't think a very femme gay man would likely be interested in being top and other gays know it or assume it, therefore, if they have similar desires, they will stay away from dating this type because they know very well that their interests aren't gonna make their relationship work very well. This is why it's relevant. You can continue to tell me that it doesn't fit the discussion, but it does because this is just how I see it just like you you chose to see it as hate and shame.

6. The other side is the side that is complaining and thinking that every person who doesn't want to date them is ashamed of them, just like how many feminists who don't look in the "typical" feminine way think that there's something wrong with men who aren't attracted to them, and that's not true, because if someone likes the typical features of a female, so what?

7. They're free to think that there's a problem with society. It's up to them, and there are problems indeed. It's not like there aren't people who feel other people are less than they are. But just immediately assuming that anyone who doesn't wanna date you is ashamed of you further amplifies the rift people and emphasizing on the hatred between people.

As for the statistics, I'm curious to see the source of these numbers, how did they survey these people? did they interview every gay man in the world or a good sample of people from all over the world or is it just from the US? how reliable are these numbers and how do these people express that "repulsion" or "shame". Like does someone go out of their way to shame someone else or it's more of an internal thing? because that changes a lot of things.

I'm pretty sure that shaming and attacking others is a problem. No one should be judged just because of their outlook or behavior, and no one should be judged for the type of partner they want to be and no one owes the world an explanation for who they are and what they want. My whole point was that while there may be problems of such practices, people are simply preferring one thing over another isn't the problem itself and not every person who prefers something normal is doing so because they're conditioned to do so, some people genuinely like certain stuff just like how some people prefer specific foods, specific outfits, specific genres of music. At least that's just how I see it. 

8. You keep mentioning that these desires are "harmful ideas", and insist that I was conditioned to feel that way without even knowing me personally or where I grew up, what I've been through. I disagree with that and I explained why in the paragraphs above. To make the perspective clearer for you, imagine a femme gay man being told that the reason why he's femme is because he was raised "the wrong way". Would that be acceptable? because again, if upbringing can make you idolize the manly man and being manly yourself because it's "right" then upbringing can also make you the opposite. For example, maybe being raised in a house full of girls will make the only boy have girly interests? would that be acceptable for you? because if you accept the other side, you really need to accept this too. It works both ways.

What's really a huge problem for me is that there are gays around the world who are forced to marry women to avoid suspicion of being gay because they could get shunned, disowned or even prisoned or killed for it while other gays are so worried about why no one is dating them because of their femme behavior, and none of these prides and marches or any of these organizations is doing any effort to help those people in other places. What breaks my heart is that so many Iraqi and Syrian gay men are shamed as refugees and considered "Muslim invasion" when they simply wanna live a peaceful life in an accepting society. I think if there's such thing as a gay community, than that community should encompass all gays around the world, not gays in one country and that such cases should be prioritized because they're matters of life and death. But that's a whole different discussion for a whole different thread.

 

"But we should be able to tell the difference between each "contribution". The fact that manly men turn me on and not others simply because I like manly men and wild sex, is different from thinking that femme gays give a bad reputation to LGBT people."

Of course there is a scale, beating up a femme person is different from making comments about how they are annoying which is different from not having a preference. Nobody would deny that. Just because thinking femme gays give LGBT people a bad reputation is worse doesn't mean that sexual preferences can't be in anyway problematic or symptoms of a larger scale societal problem.

" Please elaborate, because if you claim that gender roles and manly behaviors are taught and acquired and not something you're born with then the same thing goes for feminine features. If you're implying that I only 'act' manly because I was taught to act manly then someone who acts in a feminine way is probably that way because they somehow acquired it in their upbringing. The sword swings both ways."

I'm not denying that it doesn't swing both ways, I just think it's nonsense that people like me would be outraged at you saying so... Everybody, to a significant degree, is a product of their environment. In the culture we live in with such rigid gender roles, even a rejection of expected gendered behaviours in favour of another is unavoidably informed by the culture we live in. I just don't think that's some problematic statement  I don't think it's homophobic or ignorant to say that anyone in our culture who has grown up conditioned into our societies thoughts of gender has in some significant way been influenced by it, including femme men or masculine women.

" I didn't suggest that you said that, I'm just saying that this is an example of things that people have told me and other people before, and I simply shed light on it and expressed my disagreement with it. Again, not every person who doesn't prefer a specific gender is doing so because they think someone else is lesser. A man who desires Asian women doesn't necessarily feel that way because he thinks white and black women are lesser than asian women. Sometimes it is indeed just preference."

Cool though, like that's why I keep saying: This isn't personal, it's societal. To quote myself from pages down before you first quoted me:

"I don't really care about Bill and what Bill likes, I can't tell much from that, what I care about is the aggregate. I care about what Bill and another over 5,000+ respondents find attractive and unattractive because it means we can generalise those results and see certain societal attitudes towards particular groups of people."

If Bill was gay and said he was not attracted to Asian men - would I think it's largely a result of the culture we live in? Well yeah I think we see that, when we look at the bigger picture, Asian men are consistently ranked as the least attractive and I have no doubt that's due to certain racial prejudices about Asian men that our culture promotes. I don't think Bill had a choice about his preferences, per say, I don't know that he made a conscious decision to be attracted/not attracted to certain people (which is why I'm not so concerned with Bill personally) - but that doesn't mean his preferences are not problematic or a symptom of a larger societal issue.

"Since we're talking statistics, everything seems to be based on US measures. There's a whole world beyond the United States, billions more people than the 320,000,000 population of the U.S., many of which are open and closeted gay men, lesbians, bisexual people, curious, transgender, straight... you name it"

No doubt, which is also why I tried to include some information on the UK. It's hard to generalise the entire world based on 5000 people from the U.S, but we do know that most developed countries have very similar gender roles and ideas about gender - so it would be surprising to see a huge improvement in most countries really.

"Absolutely not. I personally am a bottom, and I don't see myself being in bed with someone who is too petite or delicate, mainly because I love the idea of someone being larger and stronger than me taking control, being rough and passionate..etc. and no, it's not self-hatred either because I'm perfectly fine with who I am and I'm neither closeted nor ashamed of who I am, I simply feel turned on by this image for as long as I can remember."

But that's you  Like I'm not claiming you are a self-hating gay - I do think that your descriptions of what you like seem very heteronormative and fit with this heteronormative idea of sexuality -  that masculine attracts feminine and vice versa. Which only really strengthens my point that it's not really about top/bottom - it's deeper than that, you don't see yourself in bed with somebody who is more femme because you are attracted to this idealised heteronormative cis-sexist idea of masculinity and what a man should be. You hold certain ideas about what a man and a woman is, you where conditioned to think men and women act (or should act) in certain ways. That's not a criticism of you by the way, that applies to virtually everyone.

"The other side is the side that is complaining and thinking that every person who doesn't want to date them is ashamed of them, just like how many feminists who don't look in the "typical" feminine way think that there's something wrong with men who aren't attracted to them, and that's not true, because if someone likes the typical features of a female, so what?"

I mean you're just kinda making generalising statements here without any data to back it up. I'm not familiar with the 'many' feminists who are complaining at the lack of male gaze. What are 'typical' features of a female by the way? Like genuinely, are you speaking physically? Behaviourally? Both? In my experience, although admittedly I don't have any 'hard data' and statistics on this myself, guys seem to like girls that 'can hang' who play video games and are tomboyish. I think girls who act more boyish are generally more accepted than boys who act girlish because of the societal ideals I've been talking about.

"They're free to think that there's a problem with society. It's up to them, and there are problems indeed. It's not like there aren't people who feel other people are less than they are. But just immediately assuming that anyone who doesn't wanna date you is ashamed of you further amplifies the rift people and emphasizing on the hatred between people."

I think that's largely you projecting though  If you have a discriminating sexual preferences then you clearly hold certain prejudices - but I don't expect or think anyone should like EVERY femme person or every masculine person or every person of colour. It's just clearly problematic when you rule out certain types of people because of a sexual prejudice - like clearly then there is a level of negativity you feel about those people, even if it's subconscious.

"As for the statistics, I'm curious to see the source of these numbers, how did they survey these people? did they interview every gay man in the world or a good sample of people from all over the world or is it just from the US?"

What statistics in particular? Because there are plenty. The statistics from this thread are largely from a survey from Attitude magazine and you can see their questions and all. This thread also mentions a recent study authored by Cal Strode, a very reputable mental health organisation, that found similar results. This is largely just research that's backing up what we already know and what has already been extensively studied.

"I'm pretty sure that shaming and attacking others is a problem. No one should be judged just because of their outlook or behavior, and no one should be judged for the type of partner they want to be and no one owes the world an explanation for who they are and what they want. My whole point was that while there may be problems of such practices, people are simply preferring one thing over another isn't the problem itself and not every person who prefers something normal is doing so because they're conditioned to do so, some people genuinely like certain stuff just like how some people prefer specific foods, specific outfits, specific genres of music. At least that's just how I see it."

But nobody is shaming and attacking anyone  Pointing out that it's a problem that 71% of gay men are saying they are not attracted to femme gays is not a personal attack, it's a critique on the culture. Like I've said before, this isn't "Oh I prefer guys with green eyes, they're so cute!" or "Omg I prefer pizza over pasta!" this is something different. I would be surprised to see 71% of any group of people say they would refuse to date anyone without green eyes, it's just not a societal problem. I'm sure people who prefer pizza over pasta largely wouldn't exclusively eat pizza and refuse other types of foods (+ obviously, that doesn't actually affect anyone).

"You keep mentioning that these desires are "harmful ideas", and insist that I was conditioned to feel that way without even knowing me personally or where I grew up, what I've been through. I disagree with that and I explained why in the paragraphs above. To make the perspective clearer for you, imagine a femme gay man being told that the reason why he's femme is because he was raised "the wrong way". Would that be acceptable? because again, if upbringing can make you idolize the manly man and being manly yourself because it's "right" then upbringing can also make you the opposite."

Yes, heteronormative cis-sexist ideas are hugely harmful - it manifests itself in small microaggressions and small prejudices, such as sexual preferences, but it's also what leads to violence against trans people or gender-nonconforming people. It's what leads to violence against LGBT people. It's what leads to mental health problems and suicide for people who cannot conform to these rigid societal roles they are expected to fit into. You talk about how you like "strong" masculine guys rather than "delicate" feminine guys, so obviously you have particular gender roles where you come from and live in a society that promotes pretty heteronormative cis-sexist ideas about gender...

This isn't about being raised the 'right way' or the 'wrong way'. The femme men in our society where raised in the same society under the same social conditioning that we where. This isn't an issue that's just family related, it's peers, it's the education system, it's the media, it's politics, it's imbedded in all aspects of our society. The masculine guy raised in a society/culture in which he was encouraged to act masculine was raised in the same society as the femme guy  and he was also encouraged to act masculine. A femme man who refuses to conform is still unavoidably reacting against, and influenced by, a heteronormative cis-sexist society. A femme man who is unable to conform is still in many ways forced to work within the gender binary under which society operates, there is no escaping that regardless of whether you are masculine or feminine. 

"For example, maybe being raised in a house full of girls will make the only boy have girly interests? would that be acceptable for you? because if you accept the other side, you really need to accept this too. It works both ways."

That's fine?  the boy who was raised in a house full of girls, and therefore developed girly interests, is still living in a heteronormative, cis-sexist society in which he is expected to conform to. Whether he does, or can, is another story but no doubt, he still interacts with the outside world in some way. He has to interact with peers who expect certain behaviours, with teachers who hold certain gender expectations, he will see posters and magazines, T.V shows and movies, play with toys, and read books that promote a particularly gendered view of the world. He is no doubt also conditioned within that society and learns to generalise, he picks up certain gender-based prejudices and gender-based biases.

"What's really a huge problem for me is that there are gays around the world who are forced to marry women to avoid suspicion of being gay because they could get shunned, disowned or even prisoned or killed for it......"

Yes and these are hugely significant issues, the gay people in those countries are victims of an extremely heteronormative, cis-sexist society. I'm certainly very privileged not to live in a country like that, but just because we aren't being put in prison now doesn't mean everything is equal and perfect. It doesn't mean we should stop working to make the society we live in better and more inclusive. It's natural that people in countries like the U.S are working to make things better in their communities, as a gay Australian I face a vastly different set of problems to a gay man in Iran who faces far more serious persecution, but that's also true of many problems that I face as an Australian vs the problems an Iranian might face. 

[God Control 2,181]

"Of course there is a scale, beating up a femme person is different from making comments about how they are annoying which is different from not having a preference. Nobody would deny that. Just because thinking femme gays give LGBT people a bad reputation is worse doesn't mean that sexual preferences can't be in anyway problematic or symptoms of a larger scale societal problem."

I disagree that sexual preferences alone can be problematic to anyone. We might just have to agree to disagree about this, because I don't see how my preference is affecting anyone when I'm not going out of my way to attack or put anyone down.

"I'm not denying that it doesn't swing both ways, I just think it's nonsense that people like me would be outraged at you saying so... Everybody, to a significant degree, is a product of their environment. In the culture we live in with such rigid gender roles, even a rejection of expected gendered behaviours in favour of another is unavoidably informed by the culture we live in. I just don't think that's some problematic statement  I don't think it's homophobic or ignorant to say that anyone in our culture who has grown up conditioned into our societies thoughts of gender has in some significant way been influenced by it, including femme men or masculine women."

You'd be surprised how many people react negatively when they're told that their femme gay behaviors are not something they're born with but actually acquired. A lot of people are outraged when you think that the way they are is something they can control or change, but that only applies when you talk about an oppressed minority group. I didn't think it should be offensive because I believe a lot of our traits are a product of our upbringing but I never really saw any femme gay guy who thinks that his behaviors aren't something he was born with. I thought that statement isn't problematic but apparently, people do think so. But good thing that you don't think that way.

"Cool though, like that's why I keep saying: This isn't personal, it's societal. To quote myself from pages down before you first quoted me:

"I don't really care about Bill and what Bill likes, I can't tell much from that, what I care about is the aggregate. I care about what Bill and another over 5,000+ respondents find attractive and unattractive because it means we can generalise those results and see certain societal attitudes towards particular groups of people."

If Bill was gay and said he was not attracted to Asian men - would I think it's largely a result of the culture we live in? Well yeah I think we see that, when we look at the bigger picture, Asian men are consistently ranked as the least attractive and I have no doubt that's due to certain racial prejudices about Asian men that our culture promotes. I don't think Bill had a choice about his preferences, per say, I don't know that he made a conscious decision to be attracted/not attracted to certain people (which is why I'm not so concerned with Bill personally) - but that doesn't mean his preferences are not problematic or a symptom of a larger societal issue."

But do you really think over 5,000 people represent a good sample of LGBT people all around the world? and do you think it's fair that their responses are enough to make a generalizing statement even without knowing the intentions and their behaviors towards femme gays?

This brings us back to stereotypes, there are stereotypes regarding asian men and endowment and sometimes stereotypes are indeed inspired by real life facts. Of course not every asian man is not well endowed but if a large majority of them is, then the stereotype and I don't intend any humiliation towards anyone, might make sense. I don't think we tend to make conscious decisions to feel attraction, sometimes it takes time to develop feelings for someone, sometimes it's a friend you've had for a long time suddenly makes you start feeling differently. So I guess there are aberrations to any rule, and I'm with the idea of getting to know people before you judge them completely, but I think if someone doesn't prefer the looks of asian people or say prefer black over asian or asian over white..etc. then that's your taste and I don't see any problem in it because I don't think we're biologically wired to like everything. We don't like every food out there, we don't like every outfit, we don't like every color or design, we all have preferences and I don't get why sexual preference has to be any different, at least not in a way to generalize on all people.

"No doubt, which is also why I tried to include some information on the UK. It's hard to generalise the entire world based on 5000 people from the U.S, but we do know that most developed countries have very similar gender roles and ideas about gender - so it would be surprising to see a huge improvement in most countries really."

I personally believe that people are different and people have biological and social predispositions to certain things and since the world is a pretty big place, the look on sex and masculinity might also be affected, but I don't know if we can know for sure why X person desires Y and whether that is taught or just genuine attraction.

"But that's you  Like I'm not claiming you are a self-hating gay - I do think that your descriptions of what you like seem very heteronormative and fit with this heteronormative idea of sexuality -  that masculine attracts feminine and vice versa. Which only really strengthens my point that it's not really about top/bottom - it's deeper than that, you don't see yourself in bed with somebody who is more femme because you are attracted to this idealised heteronormative cis-sexist idea of masculinity and what a man should be. You hold certain ideas about what a man and a woman is, you where conditioned to think men and women act (or should act) in certain ways. That's not a criticism of you by the way, that applies to virtually everyone."

I'm just explaining because you mentioned that self-hate could be a reason for these preferences in your previous post and I disagree because it doesn't apply to me personally. It might to others, but I'm expressing how I feel about it. But as for seeing what that ideal man is, it's not something just related to body shape, because you'd be surprised that I don't have a specific type. If I like you, I like you, but the feminine features don't turn me on. You could be western, eastern, black, white, middle eastern, tall, short, latin, well-built, thin, but I like guys with beards, I like guys who are rough in bed simply because having sex with them feels good. I don't care what men and women should act like. I just happened to feel good with men who are like that and still if you put me in a room full of manly men, I'd still have preferences among these manly and typical men which have to do with personality, behaviors, attitude, loyalty. I can't quite describe it. I can't tell you "white men turn me on" or "black men turn me on" or "I like bears" or "I like twinks". There's just this spark that I either feel or don't feel. It's kinda hard to explain.

"I mean you're just kinda making generalising statements here without any data to back it up. I'm not familiar with the 'many' feminists who are complaining at the lack of male gaze. What are 'typical' features of a female by the way? Like genuinely, are you speaking physically? Behaviourally? Both? In my experience, although admittedly I don't have any 'hard data' and statistics on this myself, guys seem to like girls that 'can hang' who play video games and are tomboyish. I think girls who act more boyish are generally more accepted than boys who act girlish because of the societal ideals I've been talking about."

Again, like the example with femme gays considering it homophobic to claim that their behaviors are acquired rather than born with them. I have encountered feminists who blame it on society that straight men like curvy women or women with bigger boobs than those who are more tomboyish. Other guys like gamer girls and the geeky type, and these feminists keep blaming it on magazines and videos and I personally think that these games and magazines weren't the ones that taught us what to like, they're an amplification of our desires, of the desired features expanded, of our fantasies amplified, of the unachievable.

"I think that's largely you projecting though  If you have a discriminating sexual preferences then you clearly hold certain prejudices - but I don't expect or think anyone should like EVERY femme person or every masculine person or every person of colour. It's just clearly problematic when you rule out certain types of people because of a sexual prejudice - like clearly then there is a level of negativity you feel about those people, even if it's subconscious."

I don't think it's any level of negativity. I don't feel negatively about white people but the fact that I consider latin and middle eastern men more attractive, even though you may say the idealized image of a handsome man is the white manly man in superhero movies and the likes.

"What statistics in particular? Because there are plenty. The statistics from this thread are largely from a survey from Attitude magazine and you can see their questions and all. This thread also mentions a recent study authored by Cal Strode, a very reputable mental health organisation, that found similar results. This is largely just research that's backing up what we already know and what has already been extensively studied."

Any statistics that make any claims, I'm interested in knowing where they came from. Since I personally believe that people are different, I don't believe that a small sample from one or two countries can be applied on the entire world which is a mosaic of different genetic pools, upbringings, cultures and beliefs.

"But nobody is shaming and attacking anyone  Pointing out that it's a problem that 71% of gay men are saying they are not attracted to femme gays is not a personal attack, it's a critique on the culture. Like I've said before, this isn't "Oh I prefer guys with green eyes, they're so cute!" or "Omg I prefer pizza over pasta!" this is something different. I would be surprised to see 71% of any group of people say they would refuse to date anyone without green eyes, it's just not a societal problem. I'm sure people who prefer pizza over pasta largely wouldn't exclusively eat pizza and refuse other types of foods (+ obviously, that doesn't actually affect anyone)."

Because preferring people with green eyes is a lot less significant that the matter at hand. I might prefer a specific eye color but I'm not gonna refuse dating somebody because of it. If my fiancé starts wearing contact lenses of a different color, I'm not gonna stop being turned on by him, just like how I wouldn't if he changes his hair color or if he works out more or less because our relationship transcend his taste in food or his hair and eye color. But as for being femme, there's a lot that is connected to that, that's something about who you are, not a few preferences that have nothing to do with you. The voice, the behaviors, and sometimes the interests and even sexual role, which is why I brought it into the discussion, is related to that. Let's not be naive and pretend that a femme gay is just as good as a top in bed as a masculine top man. That's not an insult to anyone, and perhaps a femme gay wouldn't even be into me to begin with.

Yes, heteronormative cis-sexist ideas are hugely harmful - it manifests itself in small microaggressions and small prejudices, such as sexual preferences, but it's also what leads to violence against trans people or gender-nonconforming people. It's what leads to violence against LGBT people. It's what leads to mental health problems and suicide for people who cannot conform to these rigid societal roles they are expected to fit into. You talk about how you like "strong" masculine guys rather than "delicate" feminine guys, so obviously you have particular gender roles where you come from and live in a society that promotes pretty heteronormative cis-sexist ideas about gender...

I don't think the fact that there's a large number of people who prefer masculine men will eventually end up bullying trans people. The two are separate and independent cases. I don't see myself being a violent person again someone who is trans or any person for the sole reason that they are who they are. The idea that I and many other manly men and women idolize manly men isn't necessarily something that will evolve into violence. And again, I did mention that gender roles aren't just ideas, they're stuff that have roots in biology as well, like I previously mentioned, so I don't think that admiring such concepts, not for others, but for the life you choose for yourself, to be harmful. Like I don't think anyone should go out of their way to shame others, because that's wrong 100%, but I think every person has every right to idealize whatever they idealize and to desire whatever they desire, and if that somehow bothers people that they need to change our perception so we can start arranging our lives according to what doesn't bother them, then maybe these other people are expecting too much and should probably find something better to care about, because the world doesn't revolve around one group. 

"This isn't about being raised the 'right way' or the 'wrong way'. The femme men in our society where raised in the same society under the same social conditioning that we where. This isn't an issue that's just family related, it's peers, it's the education system, it's the media, it's politics, it's imbedded in all aspects of our society. The masculine guy raised in a society/culture in which he was encouraged to act masculine was raised in the same society as the femme guy  and he was also encouraged to act masculine. A femme man who refuses to conform is still unavoidably reacting against, and influenced by, a heteronormative cis-sexist society. A femme man who is unable to conform is still in many ways forced to work within the gender binary under which society operates, there is no escaping that regardless of whether you are masculine or feminine."

Do you seriously think that being raised in one country is guaranteed to bring you up in a certain way? if that was the case then there wouldn't be any different people within the one society. Every member of every family can be a different person in terms of how they react and what influences and inspires them.

"That's fine?  the boy who was raised in a house full of girls, and therefore developed girly interests, is still living in a heteronormative, cis-sexist society in which he is expected to conform to. Whether he does, or can, is another story but no doubt, he still interacts with the outside world in some way. He has to interact with peers who expect certain behaviours, with teachers who hold certain gender expectations, he will see posters and magazines, T.V shows and movies, play with toys, and read books that promote a particularly gendered view of the world. He is no doubt also conditioned within that society and learns to generalise, he picks up certain gender-based prejudices and gender-based biases."

So do you suggest that the world that was structured based on ideals of the majority of people, should somehow change so that it stops influencing people to like certain stuff? Because that's unfair. I'm not saying the majority should rule and the minority should just deal with it, but if for example you're living in a muslim country, you can't expect people to disregard their beliefs just so those with different beliefs don't feel like aliens. Of course, they shouldn't be bullying gays or minorities nor persecuting them, but the majority that believes in a certain set of beliefs will continue to think the way it does and it's their right just as much these minorities have the right to practice their lifestyle.

You kept mentioning the effect of society, so for example a gay kid who grew up watching Madonna and Lady Gaga might actually end up imitating them and their dancers for example and the way they dance and move..etc. while a gay kid who grew up playing Call of Duty and watching action movies and anime might end up being more "manly" in the stereotypical sense? if that's so, then which side is right? would you still complain if society was trans-sexist and that was the norm? is there a right and wrong in this issue or there are just people who have certain biological and acquired set of preferences and they happen in influence each other in different ways and it's perfectly healthy? 

"Yes and these are hugely significant issues, the gay people in those countries are victims of an extremely heteronormative, cis-sexist society. I'm certainly very privileged not to live in a country like that, but just because we aren't being put in prison now doesn't mean everything is equal and perfect. It doesn't mean we should stop working to make the society we live in better and more inclusive. It's natural that people in countries like the U.S are working to make things better in their communities, as a gay Australian I face a vastly different set of problems to a gay man in Iran who faces far more serious persecution, but that's also true of many problems that I face as an Australian vs the problems an Iranian might face."

But if there's such thing as a gay community rather than just some idea that LGBT like to convince themselves with to feel better, then that community should play a role and encompass LGBT people all over the world, right? I mean they can still fix issues in their society but these days, all I see is people complaining about why one movie featured less gay characters than the other and why the lead of that video game was a male not a female. I mean is that really harmful to anyone? is that really a priority? why do people expect others to give them things when they can make them, themselves? why can't a trans director make a game with trans characters like the director of Sense8 tv show did, instead of complaining about Bioware for example for not giving trans characters a meaningful role in the game? why can't a person of color make a game about their own race and culture instead of complaining why The Witcher video game featured mainly a white cast and it's a game set in a fictionalized medieval version of Poland which is known for having a very low if not zero population of black people in medieval times? why are these topics a priority when there's so much more to fix? why do femme gays who made this article for example expect the world to change its view on femme people instead of hanging out with people who agree with them?

I keep asking these questions and it feels like the role that most social justice warriors are playing is on the least important issues and they live in societies where other nations dream to get to live into and they don't even care that there's a whole world out there who has much more problems than someone not preferring to date them? and let's say that these people get to make changes, are you sure that these changes are positive? what's the standard for negative and positive here? if some people think that gender roles don't exist and that men and women should probably look androgynous, is that a positive change in society? I'm not saying you suggested that, but whenever I see a discussion about this matter, there has to be someone who claims that genders mean nothing and that manly men are only acting or pretending because they don't wanna be looked down upon, never considering that someone could simple be just the way they are.

 

[Economy 52,842]

On 2017-11-09 at 11:14 PM, Supersonic said:

Don't forget the pickles! I can only eat MAN pickles with blue label! Pink label no good!

Its like hair die. Its the same thing but the die for men is slightly more expensive in my area

 

once in a while i die my hair black and I just buy the ones with a woman in the picture cuz... its the same dam product...

 

i dont need to pay more to fill some insecurity  

[Economy 52,842]

1 hour ago, Givenchy said:

"Of course there is a scale, beating up a femme person is different from making comments about how they are annoying which is different from not having a preference. Nobody would deny that. Just because thinking femme gays give LGBT people a bad reputation is worse doesn't mean that sexual preferences can't be in anyway problematic or symptoms of a larger scale societal problem."

I disagree that sexual preferences alone can be problematic to anyone. We might just have to agree to disagree about this, because I don't see how my preference is affecting anyone when I'm not going out of my way to attack or put anyone down.

"I'm not denying that it doesn't swing both ways, I just think it's nonsense that people like me would be outraged at you saying so... Everybody, to a significant degree, is a product of their environment. In the culture we live in with such rigid gender roles, even a rejection of expected gendered behaviours in favour of another is unavoidably informed by the culture we live in. I just don't think that's some problematic statement  I don't think it's homophobic or ignorant to say that anyone in our culture who has grown up conditioned into our societies thoughts of gender has in some significant way been influenced by it, including femme men or masculine women."

You'd be surprised how many people react negatively when they're told that their femme gay behaviors are not something they're born with but actually acquired. A lot of people are outraged when you think that the way they are is something they can control or change, but that only applies when you talk about an oppressed minority group. I didn't think it should be offensive because I believe a lot of our traits are a product of our upbringing but I never really saw any femme gay guy who thinks that his behaviors aren't something he was born with. I thought that statement isn't problematic but apparently, people do think so. But good thing that you don't think that way.

"Cool though, like that's why I keep saying: This isn't personal, it's societal. To quote myself from pages down before you first quoted me:

"I don't really care about Bill and what Bill likes, I can't tell much from that, what I care about is the aggregate. I care about what Bill and another over 5,000+ respondents find attractive and unattractive because it means we can generalise those results and see certain societal attitudes towards particular groups of people."

If Bill was gay and said he was not attracted to Asian men - would I think it's largely a result of the culture we live in? Well yeah I think we see that, when we look at the bigger picture, Asian men are consistently ranked as the least attractive and I have no doubt that's due to certain racial prejudices about Asian men that our culture promotes. I don't think Bill had a choice about his preferences, per say, I don't know that he made a conscious decision to be attracted/not attracted to certain people (which is why I'm not so concerned with Bill personally) - but that doesn't mean his preferences are not problematic or a symptom of a larger societal issue."

But do you really think over 5,000 people represent a good sample of LGBT people all around the world? and do you think it's fair that their responses are enough to make a generalizing statement even without knowing the intentions and their behaviors towards femme gays?

This brings us back to stereotypes, there are stereotypes regarding asian men and endowment and sometimes stereotypes are indeed inspired by real life facts. Of course not every asian man is not well endowed but if a large majority of them is, then the stereotype and I don't intend any humiliation towards anyone, might make sense. I don't think we tend to make conscious decisions to feel attraction, sometimes it takes time to develop feelings for someone, sometimes it's a friend you've had for a long time suddenly makes you start feeling differently. So I guess there are aberrations to any rule, and I'm with the idea of getting to know people before you judge them completely, but I think if someone doesn't prefer the looks of asian people or say prefer black over asian or asian over white..etc. then that's your taste and I don't see any problem in it because I don't think we're biologically wired to like everything. We don't like every food out there, we don't like every outfit, we don't like every color or design, we all have preferences and I don't get why sexual preference has to be any different, at least not in a way to generalize on all people.

"No doubt, which is also why I tried to include some information on the UK. It's hard to generalise the entire world based on 5000 people from the U.S, but we do know that most developed countries have very similar gender roles and ideas about gender - so it would be surprising to see a huge improvement in most countries really."

I personally believe that people are different and people have biological and social predispositions to certain things and since the world is a pretty big place, the look on sex and masculinity might also be affected, but I don't know if we can know for sure why X person desires Y and whether that is taught or just genuine attraction.

"But that's you  Like I'm not claiming you are a self-hating gay - I do think that your descriptions of what you like seem very heteronormative and fit with this heteronormative idea of sexuality -  that masculine attracts feminine and vice versa. Which only really strengthens my point that it's not really about top/bottom - it's deeper than that, you don't see yourself in bed with somebody who is more femme because you are attracted to this idealised heteronormative cis-sexist idea of masculinity and what a man should be. You hold certain ideas about what a man and a woman is, you where conditioned to think men and women act (or should act) in certain ways. That's not a criticism of you by the way, that applies to virtually everyone."

I'm just explaining because you mentioned that self-hate could be a reason for these preferences in your previous post and I disagree because it doesn't apply to me personally. It might to others, but I'm expressing how I feel about it. But as for seeing what that ideal man is, it's not something just related to body shape, because you'd be surprised that I don't have a specific type. If I like you, I like you, but the feminine features don't turn me on. You could be western, eastern, black, white, middle eastern, tall, short, latin, well-built, thin, but I like guys with beards, I like guys who are rough in bed simply because having sex with them feels good. I don't care what men and women should act like. I just happened to feel good with men who are like that and still if you put me in a room full of manly men, I'd still have preferences among these manly and typical men which have to do with personality, behaviors, attitude, loyalty. I can't quite describe it. I can't tell you "white men turn me on" or "black men turn me on" or "I like bears" or "I like twinks". There's just this spark that I either feel or don't feel. It's kinda hard to explain.

"I mean you're just kinda making generalising statements here without any data to back it up. I'm not familiar with the 'many' feminists who are complaining at the lack of male gaze. What are 'typical' features of a female by the way? Like genuinely, are you speaking physically? Behaviourally? Both? In my experience, although admittedly I don't have any 'hard data' and statistics on this myself, guys seem to like girls that 'can hang' who play video games and are tomboyish. I think girls who act more boyish are generally more accepted than boys who act girlish because of the societal ideals I've been talking about."

Again, like the example with femme gays considering it homophobic to claim that their behaviors are acquired rather than born with them. I have encountered feminists who blame it on society that straight men like curvy women or women with bigger boobs than those who are more tomboyish. Other guys like gamer girls and the geeky type, and these feminists keep blaming it on magazines and videos and I personally think that these games and magazines weren't the ones that taught us what to like, they're an amplification of our desires, of the desired features expanded, of our fantasies amplified, of the unachievable.

"I think that's largely you projecting though  If you have a discriminating sexual preferences then you clearly hold certain prejudices - but I don't expect or think anyone should like EVERY femme person or every masculine person or every person of colour. It's just clearly problematic when you rule out certain types of people because of a sexual prejudice - like clearly then there is a level of negativity you feel about those people, even if it's subconscious."

I don't think it's any level of negativity. I don't feel negatively about white people but the fact that I consider latin and middle eastern men more attractive, even though you may say the idealized image of a handsome man is the white manly man in superhero movies and the likes.

"What statistics in particular? Because there are plenty. The statistics from this thread are largely from a survey from Attitude magazine and you can see their questions and all. This thread also mentions a recent study authored by Cal Strode, a very reputable mental health organisation, that found similar results. This is largely just research that's backing up what we already know and what has already been extensively studied."

Any statistics that make any claims, I'm interested in knowing where they came from. Since I personally believe that people are different, I don't believe that a small sample from one or two countries can be applied on the entire world which is a mosaic of different genetic pools, upbringings, cultures and beliefs.

"But nobody is shaming and attacking anyone  Pointing out that it's a problem that 71% of gay men are saying they are not attracted to femme gays is not a personal attack, it's a critique on the culture. Like I've said before, this isn't "Oh I prefer guys with green eyes, they're so cute!" or "Omg I prefer pizza over pasta!" this is something different. I would be surprised to see 71% of any group of people say they would refuse to date anyone without green eyes, it's just not a societal problem. I'm sure people who prefer pizza over pasta largely wouldn't exclusively eat pizza and refuse other types of foods (+ obviously, that doesn't actually affect anyone)."

Because preferring people with green eyes is a lot less significant that the matter at hand. I might prefer a specific eye color but I'm not gonna refuse dating somebody because of it. If my fiancé starts wearing contact lenses of a different color, I'm not gonna stop being turned on by him, just like how I wouldn't if he changes his hair color or if he works out more or less because our relationship transcend his taste in food or his hair and eye color. But as for being femme, there's a lot that is connected to that, that's something about who you are, not a few preferences that have nothing to do with you. The voice, the behaviors, and sometimes the interests and even sexual role, which is why I brought it into the discussion, is related to that. Let's not be naive and pretend that a femme gay is just as good as a top in bed as a masculine top man. That's not an insult to anyone, and perhaps a femme gay wouldn't even be into me to begin with.

Yes, heteronormative cis-sexist ideas are hugely harmful - it manifests itself in small microaggressions and small prejudices, such as sexual preferences, but it's also what leads to violence against trans people or gender-nonconforming people. It's what leads to violence against LGBT people. It's what leads to mental health problems and suicide for people who cannot conform to these rigid societal roles they are expected to fit into. You talk about how you like "strong" masculine guys rather than "delicate" feminine guys, so obviously you have particular gender roles where you come from and live in a society that promotes pretty heteronormative cis-sexist ideas about gender...

I don't think the fact that there's a large number of people who prefer masculine men will eventually end up bullying trans people. The two are separate and independent cases. I don't see myself being a violent person again someone who is trans or any person for the sole reason that they are who they are. The idea that I and many other manly men and women idolize manly men isn't necessarily something that will evolve into violence. And again, I did mention that gender roles aren't just ideas, they're stuff that have roots in biology as well, like I previously mentioned, so I don't think that admiring such concepts, not for others, but for the life you choose for yourself, to be harmful. Like I don't think anyone should go out of their way to shame others, because that's wrong 100%, but I think every person has every right to idealize whatever they idealize and to desire whatever they desire, and if that somehow bothers people that they need to change our perception so we can start arranging our lives according to what doesn't bother them, then maybe these other people are expecting too much and should probably find something better to care about, because the world doesn't revolve around one group. 

"This isn't about being raised the 'right way' or the 'wrong way'. The femme men in our society where raised in the same society under the same social conditioning that we where. This isn't an issue that's just family related, it's peers, it's the education system, it's the media, it's politics, it's imbedded in all aspects of our society. The masculine guy raised in a society/culture in which he was encouraged to act masculine was raised in the same society as the femme guy  and he was also encouraged to act masculine. A femme man who refuses to conform is still unavoidably reacting against, and influenced by, a heteronormative cis-sexist society. A femme man who is unable to conform is still in many ways forced to work within the gender binary under which society operates, there is no escaping that regardless of whether you are masculine or feminine."

Do you seriously think that being raised in one country is guaranteed to bring you up in a certain way? if that was the case then there wouldn't be any different people within the one society. Every member of every family can be a different person in terms of how they react and what influences and inspires them.

"That's fine?  the boy who was raised in a house full of girls, and therefore developed girly interests, is still living in a heteronormative, cis-sexist society in which he is expected to conform to. Whether he does, or can, is another story but no doubt, he still interacts with the outside world in some way. He has to interact with peers who expect certain behaviours, with teachers who hold certain gender expectations, he will see posters and magazines, T.V shows and movies, play with toys, and read books that promote a particularly gendered view of the world. He is no doubt also conditioned within that society and learns to generalise, he picks up certain gender-based prejudices and gender-based biases."

So do you suggest that the world that was structured based on ideals of the majority of people, should somehow change so that it stops influencing people to like certain stuff? Because that's unfair. I'm not saying the majority should rule and the minority should just deal with it, but if for example you're living in a muslim country, you can't expect people to disregard their beliefs just so those with different beliefs don't feel like aliens. Of course, they shouldn't be bullying gays or minorities nor persecuting them, but the majority that believes in a certain set of beliefs will continue to think the way it does and it's their right just as much these minorities have the right to practice their lifestyle.

You kept mentioning the effect of society, so for example a gay kid who grew up watching Madonna and Lady Gaga might actually end up imitating them and their dancers for example and the way they dance and move..etc. while a gay kid who grew up playing Call of Duty and watching action movies and anime might end up being more "manly" in the stereotypical sense? if that's so, then which side is right? would you still complain if society was trans-sexist and that was the norm? is there a right and wrong in this issue or there are just people who have certain biological and acquired set of preferences and they happen in influence each other in different ways and it's perfectly healthy? 

"Yes and these are hugely significant issues, the gay people in those countries are victims of an extremely heteronormative, cis-sexist society. I'm certainly very privileged not to live in a country like that, but just because we aren't being put in prison now doesn't mean everything is equal and perfect. It doesn't mean we should stop working to make the society we live in better and more inclusive. It's natural that people in countries like the U.S are working to make things better in their communities, as a gay Australian I face a vastly different set of problems to a gay man in Iran who faces far more serious persecution, but that's also true of many problems that I face as an Australian vs the problems an Iranian might face."

But if there's such thing as a gay community rather than just some idea that LGBT like to convince themselves with to feel better, then that community should play a role and encompass LGBT people all over the world, right? I mean they can still fix issues in their society but these days, all I see is people complaining about why one movie featured less gay characters than the other and why the lead of that video game was a male not a female. I mean is that really harmful to anyone? is that really a priority? why do people expect others to give them things when they can make them, themselves? why can't a trans director make a game with trans characters like the director of Sense8 tv show did, instead of complaining about Bioware for example for not giving trans characters a meaningful role in the game? why can't a person of color make a game about their own race and culture instead of complaining why The Witcher video game featured mainly a white cast and it's a game set in a fictionalized medieval version of Poland which is known for having a very low if not zero population of black people in medieval times? why are these topics a priority when there's so much more to fix? why do femme gays who made this article for example expect the world to change its view on femme people instead of hanging out with people who agree with them?

I keep asking these questions and it feels like the role that most social justice warriors are playing is on the least important issues and they live in societies where other nations dream to get to live into and they don't even care that there's a whole world out there who has much more problems than someone not preferring to date them? and let's say that these people get to make changes, are you sure that these changes are positive? what's the standard for negative and positive here? if some people think that gender roles don't exist and that men and women should probably look androgynous, is that a positive change in society? I'm not saying you suggested that, but whenever I see a discussion about this matter, there has to be someone who claims that genders mean nothing and that manly men are only acting or pretending because they don't wanna be looked down upon, never considering that someone could simple be just the way they are.

 

Dude what kind of encyclopedia are u writting?

 

no one will read all this  

[God Control 2,181]

12 minutes ago, Economy said:

Dude what kind of encyclopedia are u writting?

 

no one will read all this  

I wrote what I wrote, if people don't wanna read it, it's up to them.

[Economy 52,842]

35 minutes ago, Givenchy said:

I wrote what I wrote, if people don't wanna read it, it's up to them.

Im just sayin... im known for writting essays sometimes and even i dont writte that much 👀

 

thats like a novel 😅

[Pacify Him 9,073]

Clicking the link leads you to a pic of a really hot kissing scene 

[GagaTheExplorer 3,053]

On 10/11/2017 at 12:10 AM, Economy said:

This! Im a pretty masculine man myself in most aspects (ppl always shocked to learn im bi). I work construction, workout hard at the gym, I whatch mostly guy stuff on tv and have a lot of R&B and Rap music etc

 

But at the same time i have 0 issues doing stuff that isnt masculine if i so please like listening to pop music as well

 

For instance i also prefer to order mixed drinks at the pubs or bars cuz to me it tastes better. I dont care if my friends call it “girly drinks” and I wont order whiskey I hate just to look tough  

 

Also I decided to take 1 day a week away from weight lifting to do cardio (i still weight lift 5 days a week) and I decided to do that cardio day in an RPM spinning class. Ppl say classes are for girls but i say its motivational so ppl can STFU  

someting I've learned is that Bi people is more open to a relationship with  femme gays than gay men 

I'm pretty masculine tbh, and something that makes the things harder to find a couple

[Economy 52,842]

1 hour ago, GagaTheExplorer said:

someting I've learned is that Bi people is more open to a relationship with  femme gays than gay men 

I'm pretty masculine tbh, and something that makes the things harder to find a couple

Well i never said i was into femme guys that way tho 😅

 

I just meant theres certain things that are seen as “girly” or feminine and its total non-sense and i dont feel any less masculine for doing them...

 

such as the spinning classes or ordering mixed drinks for instance. To me thats should be gender neutral and some guys are too extra about what they avoid to try and be mainly  

 

To me feminine men (which is fine but im not attracted to) is more the way they talk, act and dress. Thats what can turn me off sexualy in men but personal tastes on other stuff is irrelevant

[mightyriverz 2,653]

can someone shut up tove lo? thanks

[Blake 7,385]

1 hour ago, Luk said:

can someone shut up tove lo? thanks

Most of Tove Lo's gay fanbase are femme and not masc so it's so ironic.  

[Guest bostonGUY]

7 minutes ago, Blake said:

Most of Tove Lo's gay fanbase are femme and not masc so it's so ironic.  

What does she even have to do with this thread?

[VillainTina 572]

if your even on this website or even know about this website just know your feminine in some kinda way 

 

you can hide it all you want but just know theres a little queen deep down inside you that wants to preform the super bowl in your undies in the privacy of your home 

 

no matter how masc you claim to be in this gaygaydaily.com thread 

[Blake 7,385]

16 minutes ago, bostonGUY said:

What does she even have to do with this thread?

Isn't the user with the Tove Lo profile one of those 'I'm gay because I'm attracted to MEN' people?

I'm saying it's ironic since the artist plastered all on their profile has a large femme gay part of a fanbase when he's all masc. 

It's just an observation so yeah....cya sis.

[NCgaga 4,345]

Oh God here we go. Just because you aren’t sexually attracted to feminine men, doesn’t mean you hate them. Preferences aren’t that simple. 

I think the reason why there are a hiigher amount of gay men, attracted to more masculine men, is because they like the “manliness of masculinity”.