Ballots stolen, shots fired by police at peaceful voters #CatalanReferendum

[MonsterOfSpain 8,331]

I don't support the referendum as it's clearly illegal and doesn't have any democratic guarantees, but the police action today was surely unneeded and completely unmeasured. The only thing Rajoy had to do was let them do the "referendum" and go out tonight and say the result isn't legal and start serious talks with the Catalan government to finally find a consensual solution to this problem. Spain's international image is gonna be seriously damaged after today, it's a sad day for Spain and Catalonia.

[Melech 9,900]

12 minutes ago, JoanneMonster said:

Ive never in my life experienced something like this, right were I live. Its scary to live from the first hand how your rights are being suspended and seeing all my friends being kicked and punched truly breaks my heart.

I'm not spanish anymore. Even if we never get to be independent, i'm not calling myself spanish ever again, im disgusted

Honestly the time of national states are dated anyway   We need a federal Europe where everyone can be happy. 

[Benji 20,113]

6 minutes ago, MonsterOfSpain said:

I don't support the referendum as it's clearly illegal and doesn't have any democratic guarantees, but the police action today was surely unneeded and completely unmeasured. The only thing Rajoy had to do was let them do the "referendum" and go out tonight and say the result isn't legal and start serious talks with the Catalan government to finally find a consensual solution to this problem. Spain's international image is gonna be seriously damaged after today, it's a sad day for Spain and Catalonia.

Referendum's aren't legally binding though. It's not like if the referendum went ahead as planned that a vote to seek independence would mean it happens, Catalan would not leave Spain the moment. It just gives the politicians guidance on what the population wants and what they should aim for.  If anything, this referendum could have just been used to show the government in Spain that the population of Catalan is unhappy... Now independence is going to be wanted a lot more since it looks like the Spanish government does not respect the Catalan population.

[Benji 20,113]

3 minutes ago, Melech said:

Honestly the time of national states are dated anyway   We need a federal Europe where everyone can be happy. 

I'd dread to think what a "federal Europe" would look like if they can't even condemn this.

EDIT-
A federal Europe as it is right now. I'm still pro-Europe but think a lot needs to change.

[Melech 9,900]

Just now, Benji said:

I'd dread to think what a "federal Europe" would look like if they can't even condemn this.

I personally like the idea of the idea of dividing europe in regions with around 5-10 million people per region. Separatist would be happy cause they have their own state etc. Of course its all an utopia and is not  going to happen anytime soon in our life time

[MonsterOfSpain 8,331]

1 minute ago, Benji said:

Referendum's aren't legally binding though. It's not like if the referendum went ahead as planned that a vote to seek independence would mean it happens, Catalan would not leave Spain the moment. It just gives the politicians guidance on what the population wants and what they should aim for.  If anything, this referendum could have just been used to show the government in Spain that the population of Catalan is unhappy... Now independence is going to be wanted a lot more since it looks like the Spanish government does not respect the Catalan population.

According to Catalan's government this one was though. The 2015 elections were meant to be a plebiscite on independence, but independentists fell below 50% of the vote, although they got a majority of seats in the parliament. That's why they decided to hold this pseudo-referendum, but doing it by breaking all current legality, from Spain's Constitution to Catalonia's own Autonomy Estatute (you need 2/3's of the seats to reform the Estatute yet they celebrated a referendum with barely 50% of seats). I think a big majority of Catalonia's citizens are just tired of the whole "process" as it has been going on since 2012, they just want the government to start working on real social issues, but I'm afraid today's police action will further increase the problem instead of softening it  

[MonsterOfSpain 8,331]

8 minutes ago, Melech said:

Honestly the time of national states are dated anyway   We need a federal Europe where everyone can be happy. 

I know right? Trying to create new boundaries between people in the 21st century it's so unnatural. We should aim for the United States of Europe. Nationalism belongs in the 19-20th centuries, it has deeply damaged Europe's history for the past centuries and the UE has given us the longest period of peace ever. Let's continue that path, with dialogue and unity we can make our lives better.

[Florian 20,017]

18 minutes ago, MonsterOfSpain said:

I don't support the referendum as it's clearly illegal and doesn't have any democratic guarantees, but the police action today was surely unneeded and completely unmeasured. The only thing Rajoy had to do was let them do the "referendum" and go out tonight and say the result isn't legal and start serious talks with the Catalan government to finally find a consensual solution to this problem. Spain's international image is gonna be seriously damaged after today, it's a sad day for Spain and Catalonia.

Rajoy has never communicated with Catalonia since the PP has been elected. Why would he start now? He's just a mess and I hope he'll be pushed out of the government after today's violences over his own people

[MonsterOfSpain 8,331]

1 minute ago, Florian said:

Rajoy has never communicated with Catalonia since the PP has been elected. Why would he start now? He's just a mess and I hope he'll be pushed out of the government after today's violences over his own people

I agree and we had the chance to get him out after the 2015 elections, but Podemos, the party created to "make a change" and leave PP's majority in the past preferred Rajoy to keep being PM instead of PSOE's Pedro Sanchez  I do think PP will lose support after today though, let's see what happens in the next few weeks and months. Early elections are surely coming in Catalonia and probably in Spain aswell.

[Benji 20,113]

Just now, Melech said:

I personally like the idea of the idea of dividing europe in regions with around 5-10 million people per region. Separatist would be happy cause they have their own state etc. Of course its all an utopia and is not  going to happen anytime soon in our life time

That's ironically what I've always wanted but I don't think the EU is how we get it due to it's politics 

[Melech 9,900]

Just now, Benji said:

That's ironically what I've always wanted but I don't think the EU is how we get it due to it's politics 

The EU needs to be reformed, but it's so difficult with all the nationalistic forces growing everywhere in Europe

 

[Florian 20,017]

14 minutes ago, Melech said:

I personally like the idea of the idea of dividing europe in regions with around 5-10 million people per region. Separatist would be happy cause they have their own state etc. Of course its all an utopia and is not  going to happen anytime soon in our life time

Fixed  

[Melech 9,900]

Just now, Florian said:

Fixed  

 

[Benji 20,113]

Just now, Florian said:

Fixed  

I think you blocking out Ireland says it all about your knowledge surrounding Brexit

[Benji 20,113]

2 minutes ago, Melech said:

The EU needs to be reformed, but it's so difficult with all the nationalistic forces growing everywhere in Europe

 

Would things change without them though?