Why do people say Madonna is Talentless?

[Antichrist 9,818]

39 minutes ago, Unwavering said:

Nice argument dodging there. It is an important indication of artistry, but of course it's not the only one. You seem to think they're meaningless, which is flat out intellectually dishonest.

But ignore the Grammies if you'd like. I'm more content with the fact that Gaga has a better voice and better songwritting skills.

"from many point of views."

Did you miss this?

We're not talking about the work itself. We're talking about voice and songwritting skills, which can be judged objectively to a certain extent.

once again, not every artist will write & have a voice that will suit each person. you can judge these things to a certain extent, but then again you cant say madonna is a lesser songwritter than gaga - if anything, they're somewhere on the same level, but she's definitely not below her.

[heimerdinger 36]

2 hours ago, Unwavering said:

I never dismissed Madonna's work. I just said Gaga's is better from many point of views. Nice strawman.

 

Grammies are an indicator of artistry, whether you believe it or not. Grammies are awarded for artists within the music industry, which primarily consists of singers (and musical composers). They are a clear indicator of vocal dexterity and you are trying to make it look like those 2 things are disconnected. They aren't.

Gaga is the better singer and has more Grammies than Madonna per time invested. This is not a coincidence. And Grammy awards specific for pop performance date back to 1958-1959. Just because Like a prayer didn't receive any nominations, that doesn't mean Grammies were unjust back then. That's one big tin foil hat you got with no evidence to back it up.

Madonna has 7 Grammys, Gaga has 6. I'm being fair here, Madonna is a very consistent songwriter and her material is one of the best in pop music. Mariah Carey has 5 grammy's, does that mean Madonna and Gaga are better than Mariah Carey artisticly? Mariah has one of the best songwriting skills ever, better than both madonna and gaga.

[heimerdinger 36]

23 minutes ago, Unwavering said:

Yes, except no one said Madonna is talentless. It's just that Gaga is better.

Also, videos aren't accurate depictions of an artist's potential, especially not in music per say. There is an entire team that works on a music video and the artist only needs to stare in it and lip sync... That's pretty much it. Unless the artist directed the music video, but I wouldn't know in Madonna's case. But that's not musical artistry per say either.

But the artist also has to have artistic input, it's their music being played on it. I'm pretty sure "Justify My Love" was concieved by Madonna or it wouldn't have been banned on MTV.

[heimerdinger 36]

7 hours ago, Kylie Jenner said:

Ray of Light is far from basic but Like A Prayer needs a prayer  

pray for it nunties  

Whaaaattttttt. I've looked at some songs in Like a Prayer and it delves into so many themes and topics with her personal life, racism, sexism, lyrically it is one of her best works. This album is what made people think of her seriously as an artist

[TheBatman 951]

28 minutes ago, Unwavering said:

Yes, except no one said Madonna is talentless. It's just that Gaga is better.

Also, videos aren't accurate depictions of an artist's potential, especially not in music per say. There is an entire team that works on a music video and the artist only needs to stare in it and lip sync... That's pretty much it. Unless the artist directed the music video, but I wouldn't know in Madonna's case. But that's not musical artistry per say either.

It's literally the thread title. Gaga is better at what? Singing/belting, ok. There are other worthy talents. For instance song writing which this thread has been discussing. I still wanna know what singles by Gaga are arguably better written than Like a Prayer, Live to Tell, or Oh Father. 

Live shows and videos are other areas talent shines as well, David Fincher directed Express Yourself, yes, but with M's concepts and guidance on every decision, there are some great interviews and articles about it if u wanna look into it. 

 

[hoeslay 4,015]

She's ridiculously talented but all stans like to do is compare in unrealistic ways and argue that their own fave is basically jesus christ and everyone else is sh*t in comparison

[heimerdinger 36]

1 hour ago, Oriane said:

As a singer, I think we all know what kind of "talent" she has, any basic candidate at The Voice or shows like this sings better.

As a songwriter ? Ok, let's say she's more talented than an average person. I still find her music very basic. Even Ray of Light that is apparently supposed to be more sober and mature, I just heard basic "boom boom boom", except for a few songs.

As a dancer ? She's good but I've always been told she wanted to be a dancer but wasn't good enough so she did music instead. Certainly doesn't compare to the greatest dancers in the world. Sure, she's one of the best dancers in pop music but she's supposed to be a musician.

As an entertainer/performer/artist ? Oh, sure, you can say she's got some good visuals (I personally see more provocation than anything but whatever), but what is her contribution in this ? She has a whole team that helped her create her image, looks, visuals, and yes it's the same for all the pop singers, even Gaga. I love this side of Gaga because the visuals always match her music but I wouldn't respect her if she wasn't a talented singer and songwriter. I don't see the point if this is just a fig-leaf.

And calling her the Queen of Pop just because she was the most popular and had a great career... When her male equivalent is Michael Jackson...

Her music is anything but basic. "There is no "boom boom" in Ray of Light. For example, Frozen has a mix of electronica, pop, orchestral elements in it (The whole album is electronica and made it popular in the US), some of her albums like MDNA and Hard Candy could be considered basic, but Like a Prayer, Ray of Light, Erotica, American Life basic? No. 

[Stevo 623]

1 hour ago, Oriane said:

As a singer, I think we all know what kind of "talent" she has, any basic candidate at The Voice or shows like this sings better.

As a songwriter ? Ok, let's say she's more talented than an average person. I still find her music very basic. Even Ray of Light that is apparently supposed to be more sober and mature, I just heard basic "boom boom boom", except for a few songs.

As a dancer ? She's good but I've always been told she wanted to be a dancer but wasn't good enough so she did music instead. Certainly doesn't compare to the greatest dancers in the world. Sure, she's one of the best dancers in pop music but she's supposed to be a musician.

As an entertainer/performer/artist ? Oh, sure, you can say she's got some good visuals (I personally see more provocation than anything but whatever), but what is her contribution in this ? She has a whole team that helped her create her image, looks, visuals, and yes it's the same for all the pop singers, even Gaga. I love this side of Gaga because the visuals always match her music but I wouldn't respect her if she wasn't a talented singer and songwriter. I don't see the point if this is just a fig-leaf.

And calling her the Queen of Pop just because she was the most popular and had a great career... When her male equivalent is Michael Jackson...

She doesn't do provocation for no reason, she always has a point to doing it. She's called out Racism and sexism through her music videos, which she concieved and had artistic input and guidance for the director. Kanye West has even said Madonna is one of the best visual artists ever. She's also called the Queen of Pop because she's had the most impact on cultur. And her music being "basic" is far from it. 

[Xoxo Adriana 15,040]

2 hours ago, heimerdinger said:

Whaaaattttttt. I've looked at some songs in Like a Prayer and it delves into so many themes and topics with her personal life, racism, sexism, lyrically it is one of her best works. This album is what made people think of her seriously as an artist

noooo I mean't the song like a prayer  I haven't heard the album

[Xoxo Adriana 15,040]

9 hours ago, insight said:

what you hear once you get inside the package is as close to art as pop music gets

http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews/like-a-prayer-19890406

yeah I don't base my opinions off rolling stone reviews, or any review site tbh   all my opinions are my own and hoènesty for me is best policy 

[StrawberryBlond 13,289]

23 hours ago, scallywally said:

Were you in the studio when M recorded it? You've got some pretty impressive facts. Look up the interviews, nobody blames Madonna, the song was originally a poem Ingrid wrote to Lenny. When in the studio they added public enemys slowed down beats behind it and Lenny's backing vocals. It wasn't a song passed around other artists and Ingrid even plays it live now in some bars with both Madonna's and Lenny's backing vocals. Its all cool.

As gaga fans we really need to get our **** spreading crap about Madonna over we look foolish.

20 hours ago, headonfire said:

The revisionism of history is this post is just ridiculous. Girl bye...

Take some time to actually educate yourself instead of making stuff up.

18 hours ago, Bio said:

She did not steal anything. She always said Lenny Kravitz wrote most of the song. And if you change something that means your name goes on the writing credits. Everyone does that. Including Gaga. Or are you forgetting about Come To Mama, Perfect Illusion and most importantly, Til It Happens To You and the Oscars?

Why did any of you feel the need to quote me to say this. Your statements had already been laid down to me by others. You don't need to extend the point. And I have not made stuff up. I got my information from research. It's just sometimes a matter of how you interpret it.

There's no need to be so overly defensive, by the way. I'm allowed to like who I want just as you're allowed to like who you want. And we all have different ways of quantifying talent. You're acting as if the world's going to end because someone doesn't like Madonna. Remember that in a Gaga forum, this is common for obvious reasons. Madonna could have ended her career if Gaga hadn't played her cards right. Therefore, having a distaste for Madonna shouldn't be something you condemn Gaga fans for, especially on a forum dedicated to her, of all things.

[Bogdan 164]

4 hours ago, insight said:

If Madonna is that talentless, then kudos to her for managing to fool the general public for 34 years. 

Should I even mention Trump?

[scallywally 626]

2 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Why did any of you feel the need to quote me to say this. Your statements had already been laid down to me by others. You don't need to extend the point. And I have not made stuff up. I got my information from research. It's just sometimes a matter of how you interpret it.

There's no need to be so overly defensive, by the way. I'm allowed to like who I want just as you're allowed to like who you want. And we all have different ways of quantifying talent. You're acting as if the world's going to end because someone doesn't like Madonna. Remember that in a Gaga forum, this is common for obvious reasons. Madonna could have ended her career if Gaga hadn't played her cards right. Therefore, having a distaste for Madonna shouldn't be something you condemn Gaga fans for, especially on a forum dedicated to her, of all things.

Madonna has always praised Gaga,  but just 1 word about 1 song. Gaga has said a lot worse. Even though we love her Gaga has been more vicious. Gaga has even used parts of Madonna's second hand stages. The reason you've been snapped at is because your research its totally ill informed. Madonna always sticks up for female singers and has with MM. Even as a fan I thought it was shady that gaga thanked Whitney for the inspiration when she has backtracked now and said it was M.

We get it, that's great for her to write amazing influenced songs. Hers are great. There's been no problems Madonna hasn't sued her, theyve been seen together since. It shouldn't be a problem for the forum either. They've moved on, we should be about love, unless you haven't heard any of Gagas songs. The world think monsters are bullies. Time to change, or at least get the facts right.

[YourChinaDoll 26]

Many haters in this thread talking about vocal abilities or lack of as if that ever stopped anyone from becoming a successful mainstream artist. Anyway, no she is not talentless. Watch "The Blonde Ambition Tour" concert on YouTube and see for yourself. No one who's "talentless" could ever pull a show like that off. 

[jtrover 42]

Some people say Madonna is talentless because her voice isn't as technically great I suppose as other female artists. Interestingly, I could name a dozen easily of other female singers over the past 3+ decades who sound far worse than Madonna ever has. They also say that because they feel her acting is terrible.

My opinion personally is that she is extremely talented. I think she is a true artist and remarkable business woman. There were always women who could sing better and dance better than Madonna (now and then), but Madonna just had a certain something... INCREDIBLE songs and and a captivating persona and image that made people interested in her. What she lacked in technicality, she made up for it with emotion in her voice. Her dancing was excellent and leaned more into a more classical style rather than modern at the time (Paula Abdul, Janet Jackson), after all Madonna studied with the best of dancers when she was young (Pearl Lang and the Alvin Ailey dance troupe). She just decided she wanted to broaden her artistic expression into something more diverse, so she then set her goal towards becoming a contemporary singer. She wanted to sing, dance, act, direct, create and write. She learned how to play the drums and guitar and keyboards herself, as well as write her own songs. She did it the hard way, from the bottom up. She was in a band called Emmy and the Breakfast Club before she hit the big time as a solo act. 

Like many artists, she has had a multifaceted career, full of highs and lows. It's kind of mind boggling when you actually read over her entire body of work. She was certainty controversial, it got everyone talking about her, but it also got people talking about important issues that people faced in the world. She presented various aspects of life in her art and did it in a way where you were forced to discuss it. She was just the catalyst to it in her work (ex. teenage pregnancy in 'Papa Don't Preach',  sexuality in 'Erotica' and 'Justify my Love', homosexuality 'Truth or Dare', religion in 'Like a Prayer', and many more examples). And when you think about it, isn't that what art and TRUE artists are supposed to do? Art isn't just about always creating a pretty piece of work. She has and still has something to say. She's an artist that likes to push buttons.

So you take her drive, creativity, savvy business sense, videos, movies (acted and directed), tours, excellent written pop songs over the past 30 years+ and other show business that she's been involved with, I can't see how anybody can say that's talentless. She's been making professional music since 1982. She's still in the news, still creates, she's in a good percentage of threads in this forum on a daily basis and other performer's forums too it seems. She's a part of history and pop culture pure and simple. Whether one likes her or not, she is an icon and arguably  the biggest star currently in our life time. People are paying attention. 

Of course time marches on and Madonna now 59, with 6 children has very different priorities than she did 30 years ago. Some say she's done it all, but she doesn't think so. She still wants to express herself artistically. I say why the hell not? She's definitely allowed to. I believe she does it now for the pure joy of being an artist. She knows she doesn't have to prove anything to anybody ever. Sure, she may not be able to move like she once could, and her voice isn't the same as it once was in her younger days, she's only human. That won't stop her, nor should it. The work she has done in Malawi, Africa with the construction of the children's hospitals and schools is so incredibly inspiring to me. She's also a humanitarian, freedom fighter and helping to save lives for goodness sakes. She's kinda like Wonder Woman, lol. :))

Who knows if there will ever be anybody like her in our life time? It's rare but anything is possible. There are some contenders for sure, but time will tell. It's hard to say if anybody will ever be so diverse and multifaceted as Madonna though, or have her colossal impact that she had on popular culture. That's the real question. Without her, there wouldn't have been others that followed because she wrote the book on how it's done. She's a part of history and her story isn't finished.