Turkish president calls the Dutch Nazis

[Chromatislaps 34,854]

1 minute ago, ezrajones said:

Turkey has wanted to be in the EU for a while. They always get rejected because of their Saudi Arabia level human rights abuses and oppressive government. The way they go after Kurds in their country is so vile. Journalists, politicians, etc. all jailed and some killed. The nerve of them to complain (after threatening the Dutch) about political free speech is astonishing.

Check this video (if you speak dutch, I presume you do), it literally explains what will probably happen.

http://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/video/2162890-hoe-is-nu-de-relatie-tussen-nederland-en-turkije.html

 

[AlphaMonster 1,806]

5 minutes ago, Derpplause said:

Actually no, this won't shift the votes to the PVV, this will be in favor of the ruling party VVD. Even Wilders himself said a few days ago that he would arrest and send back anyone lobbying for a dictator on Dutch soil. So basically he would have done the same as Prime minister Rutte.... in that regards it would not shift the votes to PVV in that sense. 

Again, we did not violate the Vienna convention because Turkey broke their own laws (Turkish law prohibits campaigning abroad) and they undermined our domestic affairs, which brings us to another international law they broke (non-intervention principle). After we denied access to the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs, our government was misled by Turkey by sending another diplomat, Minister Kaya (which had nothing to do with foreign affairs, so was not immune to the actions of our government). The Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs would have had that immunity.

I see. I personally think Erdogan sent the minister, specifically a female one, to create drama and use it in his own favour by portraying Turkey as the betrayed ally of Europe again. That's how he pushes average Joes to fall in love with Ottoman Ideal. 

Don't get me wrong, I am neither objectively defending Erdogan nor pro-Erdogan but some comments in this topic were as fanatic as Erdogan himself only from a different perspective. 

There are many ways to provide excuses to breach international laws, Erdogan does this all the time to block people from gathering in Turkey. In the same vein, I do think that Netherlands citing security as a concern in a type of event that happened many times before is unsubstantiated rationally other than them posing as titans of Europe against the Lord of the East in attempt to not lose votes to PVV. 

By the way, I wonder why you think this even will not shift votes to PVV ? I didn't know protests were small scale, people online made them seem like they were big deal but I thought this would help PVV regardless. Thinking that far right parties attract votes from fear of losing stability, becoming alienated in different ways, I thought turkish immigrants rioting/protesting would benefit PVV. 

[The Fame Joanne 5,985]

5 minutes ago, AlphaMonster said:

There will be a democratically held Referendum. And you think it is undemocratic because Turkish intellectuals say so; on the paper, proposed Turkish constitutions do not give more powers to the president than US president holds...

This is what we call media prejudice. 

Again, I am saying all this as a person who is against the proposed constitution but there is no point in mindless fanaticism by calling it undemocratic. Proposed constitution is simply presidential democracy instead of Parliamentary democracy. What is undemocratic is how the laws applied in any condition regardless of the constitution itself, and 3rd countries cannot diplomatically be judge of that. 

Even if you say that the Netherlands shouldn't judge about the constitutional change, they would stll be allowed to ban the promo for it. The German Constitutional Court said, that international law gives foreign governments no right to go to different countries for official causes. And they probably know a thing or two more about international law than you

[ezrajones 587]

2 minutes ago, Derpplause said:

Check this video (if you speak dutch, I presume you do), it literally explains what will probably happen.

http://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/video/2162890-hoe-is-nu-de-relatie-tussen-nederland-en-turkije.html

 

I only can read it. I have a tough time understanding it spoken quickly lol. From what I've read, no one thinks what the Dutch did was wrong. Only fascist Erdogan is mad.

[AlphaMonster 1,806]

Just now, The Fame Joanne said:

Even if you say that the Netherlands shouldn't judge about the constitutional change, they would stll be allowed to ban the promo for it. The German Constitutional Court said, that international law gives foreign governments no right to go to different countries for official causes. And they probably know a thing or two more about international law than you

That's all about how they interpret the laws. I am not defending Turkey's stance, I am only against any sort of fanaticism so I provided how Turkey approached. 

It all action - reaction. It is equally dumb to portray any of the countries as the devil or the angel, what has been done in this thread.

[ezrajones 587]

2 minutes ago, The Fame Joanne said:

Even if you say that the Netherlands shouldn't judge about the constitutional change, they would stll be allowed to ban the promo for it. The German Constitutional Court said, that international law gives foreign governments no right to go to different countries for official causes. And they probably know a thing or two more about international law than you

The Netherlands even said if the sanctions didn't happen they probably wouldn't have cared. Instead, Erdogan wanted to make it seem like he runs the Netherlands and can do as he pleases by sending his ministers despite being told not to. It put the Dutch in a position to look weak or to look strong against Turkey. They chose option 2.

[The Fame Joanne 5,985]

6 minutes ago, AlphaMonster said:

That's all about how they interpret the laws. I am not defending Turkey's stance, I am only against any sort of fanaticism so I provided how Turkey approached. 

It all action - reaction. It is equally dumb to portray any of the countries as the devil or the angel, what has been done in this thread.

The EU has been nice to Erdogan for long enough now. We can't let them get away with everything. It's not against Turkey or turkish people in general, but against their government

And the judges at the Constitutional Court probably interpreted the laws very reasonably. They are experts 

[AlphaMonster 1,806]

Just now, The Fame Joanne said:

The EU has been nice to Erdogan for long enough now. We can't let them get away with everything. It's not against Turkey or turkish people in general, but against their government

This is the same narrative again. From another perspective, Erdogan has been nice to EU enough, he should have let willing Syrian Refugees to EU via Greek Islands. Nothing against EU, or EU citizens, only against their government.  Same story. 

[The Fame Joanne 5,985]

1 minute ago, AlphaMonster said:

This is the same narrative again. From another perspective, Erdogan has been nice to EU enough, he should have let willing Syrian Refugees to EU via Greek Islands. Nothing against EU, or EU citizens, only against their government.  Same story. 

Almost. The EU didn't act in an uneccaptably undemocratic way and threw people into prison without any reason

[AlphaMonster 1,806]

Just now, The Fame Joanne said:

Almost. The EU didn't act in an uneccaptably undemocratic way and threw people into prison without any reason

Turkey provides totally bs reasons just like The Netherlands' bs reason to block the diplomatic rights of Turkey. 

[The Fame Joanne 5,985]

2 minutes ago, AlphaMonster said:

Turkey provides totally bs reasons just like The Netherlands' bs reason to block the diplomatic rights of Turkey. 

This has nothing to do with the topic we were discussing. The EU has totally valid reasons to say that they have enough of Turkey's behavior, whereas Turkey has no reason to think the same way. So the "you could turn the narrativ around" argument you used, doesn't work 

[Luc 4,776]

I'm happy you no longer think it's a breach of international law (because it's not). And no, ~600 Turks protesting (though they were given a different location to protest, hence the police involvement) is not at all a big number. I live 8km from where the protests took place, and 2km from here there's a neighbourhood of 15k people with 5k Dutch Turks (not counting third generation, those are considered Dutch). There's hundreds of thousands of Turks who live less than an hour away from where the protests took place, so 600 people isn't that much.

 

It's weird to think that people who were born in the Netherlands, have their parents born in the Netherlands and who grew up in the Netherlands feel more attached to Turkish culture. They support Turkish politicians in both the Netherlands and Turkey, they support Turkish football teams, they watch Turkish state TV, listen to Turkish songs, wave Turkish flags, vote Turkey Turkey Turkey (x20) in Eurovision, speak Turkish to their Turkish friends (alienating themselves, usually only becoming friends with other Turks and muslims), watch Turkish soaps, join Turkish military, etc.

I don't see that in for example the US. People should get to keep their own culture, but they should put their loyalty where they live: they're Dutch people with a Dutch passport and millions of Dutch people ready for them to join the 'real' society rather than their own alternative community. Many Turks are assimilated and many are integrated, but too many aren't. I think the protests saturday show that.

 

P.S. no, the VVD (ruling party) is not scared of losing votes to the PVV. Their strategy this election was actually to get more people to vote PVV, so that people from centrist parties would vote VVD to prevent the PVV from becoming biggest. That makes your whole argument flawed.

[Morphine Prince 109,958]

This thread blew up  

[AlphaMonster 1,806]

26 minutes ago, Luc said:

I'm happy you no longer think it's a breach of international law (because it's not). And no, ~600 Turks protesting (though they were given a different location to protest, hence the police involvement) is not at all a big number.

I think it is breach of an international law because provided excuse is total bs. Just like Turkey jailing reporters with bs excuses. 

 

26 minutes ago, Luc said:

It's weird to think that people who were born in the Netherlands, have their parents born in the Netherlands and who grew up in the Netherlands feel more attached to Turkish culture. They support Turkish politicians in both the Netherlands and Turkey, they support Turkish football teams, they watch Turkish state TV, listen to Turkish songs, wave Turkish flags, vote Turkey Turkey Turkey (x20) in Eurovision, speak Turkish to their Turkish friends (alienating themselves, usually only becoming friends with other Turks and muslims), watch Turkish soaps, join Turkish military, etc.

I don't see that in for example the US. People should get to keep their own culture, but they should put their loyalty where they live: they're Dutch people with a Dutch passport and millions of Dutch people ready for them to join the 'real' society rather than their own alternative community. Many Turks are assimilated and many are integrated, but too many aren't. I think the protests saturday show that.

Well I can explain that in 2 parts. 

1- US is not a nation state, you can become American. But European countries are nation states. A Turk cannot become a Frenchman or a German, no matter what, they will still be a Turk. 

2- Now read this topic from start to end. Turks have historically been enemy of the Europe, whether it is admitted or not; you will see that even in this topic. Human rights in Turkey are better than Armenia, have you heard anyone on this forum criticizing dictatorship of Armenia ? No ! Exactly, my point. Or have you seen people criticizing Azerbaijan in that sense ? No ! (If you think they are too small to compare, Russia and China work too)

There is an antipathy towards Turkey and Turks stemming from historical fear of Turkish Empire, whether you say it out loud or not, people act upon it, notice it subconsciously. 

Noticing this leads to feeling of alienation. Those are also the factors why Turks are super nationalistic, therefore emigre turks stay loyal to Turkey instead of their host country. You can alienate people and expect them to assimilate. They read newspapers and constantly see Turkey being alienated but human psychology isn't so simple. If I say bad things about Gaga here, people will defend her more fervently, that's the case with Turks and Turkey. 

Also Turkish immigrants did not spend helluva effort to come Central Europe or anything, all those countries had booming economies but insufficient work force so they come with their work permits already ready. They did not have to put effort into assimilating to fit in. 

[Chromatislaps 34,854]

54 minutes ago, AlphaMonster said:

I see. I personally think Erdogan sent the minister, specifically a female one, to create drama and use it in his own favour by portraying Turkey as the betrayed ally of Europe again. That's how he pushes average Joes to fall in love with Ottoman Ideal. 

Don't get me wrong, I am neither objectively defending Erdogan nor pro-Erdogan but some comments in this topic were as fanatic as Erdogan himself only from a different perspective. 

There are many ways to provide excuses to breach international laws, Erdogan does this all the time to block people from gathering in Turkey. 

2. In the same vein, I do think that Netherlands citing security as a concern in a type of event that happened many times before is unsubstantiated rationally other than them posing as titans of Europe against the Lord of the East in attempt to not lose votes to PVV. 

 1. By the way, I wonder why you think this even will not shift votes to PVV ? I didn't know protests were small scale, people online made them seem like they were big deal but I thought this would help PVV regardless. Thinking that far right parties attract votes from fear of losing stability, becoming alienated in different ways, I thought turkish immigrants rioting/protesting would benefit PVV. 

1.

At the moment, all rivals to the current prime minister from both the right and left wing parties praise the Prime Minister for these actions. They all agree that this was the right choice. There is a good chance the Turks in the Netherlands will vote for fairly left-wing parties like Groenlinks (Greenleft), DENK (literally: THINK) and Art1kel, also the polls fluctuate a lot, one day the VVD (the current ruling party) is on top of the polls, the other day PVV is on top, currently they both have an equal amount of seats if the elections were held today.

Both VVD and PVV have a fair chance of winning the elections, but for them it's important they have a 2-4 parties to co-rule with. A lot of parties are very skeptic to to rule with PVV, a lot of parties have already said they don't wanna rule together with Wilders. Even if PVV wins, Wilders might not even become the prime minister, because in the end a majority of parties has to rule not the winning party perse (not one party like in the bi-partisan system of the US), even Wilders knows this, and if he wants to rule he will have to make compromises with the co-ruling parties in the final formation of the cabinet. 

2.

To be honest, what the Turkish goverment was doing was unprecedented, the Netherlands had very good relationships with Turkey for over 400 years, so this move by Turkey is pretty left field. Even if Turkey places sanctions on the Netherlands, they'll cut themselves economically, because a lot of investment into the economy of Turkey comes from the Netherlands.

the Netherlands always wants to secure the safety of citizens and maintain order before any big event takes place. After the terrorist attacks in Brussel and Paris, there has been increasingly more police in public transport, public spaces, more surveillance throughout cities and some towns to ensure safety and it seems to help very well. In order to maintain that security, the current parliament wants to ensure all public events are safe (such as political events, public events like Kingsday, big music festivals, etc).

The event that was to be held could have had disastrous consequences if there was no proper preparation. It could have either attracted right wing protests/attacks or even a terror attack from  "socalled religious" people. Before this escalation, while there were talks going on between the Turkish diplomats and the Dutch government and things were going into the right direction, the turkish government started threatening us with both economical and political sanctions... the Dutch government felt pressured by this move, to which our government decided to not allow the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affairs on our soil. To which Erdogan decided to call out the Netherlands as Nazi Fascists...which is pretty offensive, and particularly since the city, Rotterdam, where the speech would have been held, was flattened by nazi-bombs. It is a very insensitive thing to say.