Netherlands to ban Burqa in public spaces

[ItsTommyBitch 12,640]

1 hour ago, Reala said:

I personally find it much more disturbing that western feminists are fetishizing the veil in order to make a point about 'women's choice'. Women in the 21st century are actually being killed and having acid thrown in their faces for not wearing the veil; they don't wear it because they want to: it is nothing more than a symbol of the repression of women, and doesn't have any place in 21st century liberal democracies. 

The soft bigotry of low expectations that is expressed by those on the left in regards to Islam is becoming increasingly problematic. There are women around the world fighting tooth and nail not to be veiled, and my solidarity stands completely with them. 

Also, Islamophobia doesn't exist. It is perfectly rational to fear an ideology that teaches its adherents to hate Jews and Christians, to kill homosexuals and apostates, and to stone adulterers to death, especially when a majority of those adherents are in total agreement with that ideology.

Incoming essay warning  I'll just put it in the spoiler.

 

Spoiler

 

Speaking as a western feminist, or at least an ally, this is a common and partly valid criticism,  but I think you are missing the point... I don't think first of all that feminists are the ones fetishizing the veil, I would posit that some are just rather accurately reporting on the fact that not all Muslim women view it and see the veil as that (also, some feminists are Muslim Women  )

Maybe that's a bit of white/western savior complex speaking, but I think people are assigning the blame to feminists as if its their fault that some people do not see the veil as an oppressive symbol; some use it for subversive reasons. What's more accurate is that feminists refuse to blanket marginalize or question these women who do not see the veil as oppressive because to them it is just another example of society policing women's choices. It's a complicated issue  

~~~

Disclaimer: I'm not a liberal feminist, I'm probably more of a rad fem (but not a TERF/SWERF  ) ideologically, and I see the points on both sides. Feminists (And liberals in general) who are wary of outright dismissing and admonishing the veil and the practice are doing so out of respect for those people who are not oppressed by it. Obviously, everyone in this conversation agrees that forcing women to wear this, as well as the history behind the article of clothing are both acts of sexism and are oppressive... but current reality is a bit more nuanced than that.

People are saying that its objectively more important in every way to get rid of the veil to the point of preventing people from wearing it. I get that, and I partly agree about "importance",  but I also as a feminist and just a social justice minded person realize that there is power in subversion and importance in understanding and recognizing the nuance in situations.

I can't say as a rad fem that I believe these things are anything more than band-aids used to cover gun shot wounds, but I can still respect it.

That being said, I also am not so blinded by this one issue that I don't realize that there are reasons people and governments don't want people wearing the veil that are NOT "out of solidarity for women oppressed by it". I think its naive to think so in fact

This is where I get to your next point about Islamophobia. It definitely exists, but its not what you are describing. It is rational to be fearful of a powerful ideology that has potential to do harm, but it is irrational to take prejudicial action or hold stereotypical thoughts or beliefs towards all or even most people who follow the religion  THIS is what's happening in America and in several countries around the world  This is Islamophobia and it is spreading like wildfire because as humans we like to churn out simplistic narratives whenever we are faced with complicated threats. It is easy to be tribalistic, think in binaries (good/bad, white/black, etc.) and harder to recognize all of the variety in the world.

When people talk about history repeating itself, its in situations like these where we are faced with adversity and still choose to take the low, easy road (pass discriminatory laws, judge people based on their skin color or religion or gender, whatever; use fearmongering and demagoguery to gain political power, etc.) where we are failing  

 

TL;DR, you're misunderstanding the meaning behind feminists "Defending" the veil; It's about nuance in oppression and recognizing the importance of subversion, also Islamophobia exists but it's not exactly what you implied it is. And finally, I'm playing advocate for the liberal feminist's academic point of view, My own beliefs are a bit more radical  

 

 

[jojuun 4,159]

6 hours ago, arctikstorm said:

I will never understand this idea that image (including clothing) has anything to do with what people actually do. Do you think a terrorist will only blow herself up if she uses a burqa? Or a doctor can only perform surgery if he's not tattooed? Or a bank employee can only do his job if he shaves and wears a suit and tie? Or a man can only be masculine if he doesn't wear a dress?

It's ridiculous! How about using those resources to actually control the security of the country instead of telling people what to wear or do with their bodies?

Never change.

[Luc 4,776]

5 hours ago, Whispering said:

I just saw a special on this, how Brexit and Trump are evidence of a growing movement that will continue to spread. I wouldn't have thought this trend would continue in parts of Europe. Do you really think the more conservative candidates have a chance to win in the more liberal areas of Europe? 

Due to the Dutch electoral systems where a party only needs 0.7% of votes to be represented in parliament, there's already been far right parties since the 80s with significant media exposure. Same with Austria, Belgium and France. No worries though, the Dutch system makes it impossible for a far right majority: even at the peak of the refugee crisis only 25% of Dutch citizens polled said they were planning to vote far right, and there's a cordon sanitaire (look it up) against the far right here, making them unable to get any kind of power.

 

 

I don't know if I agree or disagree with this. I guess that it's not really relevant. There's 200 people in the Netherlands who wear a burqa, I personally see one maybe twice a year. Never seen one in a public building. This proposal is just to get a few extra seats from the far-right, which, in the long term, will be better for all muslims in the Netherlands.

I don't think it's a bad form of discrimination either - it's just as much discrimination as the ban on nudity. No religion promotes burqas. I would love to be able to walk around naked, but the ban on nudity is not discriminatory either.

I do still think burqas are, in a weird way, fabulous, however

 

[Eighteen 5,430]

6 hours ago, arctikstorm said:

I will never understand this idea that image (including clothing) has anything to do with what people actually do. Do you think a terrorist will only blow herself up if she uses a burqa? Or a doctor can only perform surgery if he's not tattooed? Or a bank employee can only do his job if he shaves and wears a suit and tie? Or a man can only be masculine if he doesn't wear a dress?

It's ridiculous! How about using those resources to actually control the security of the country instead of telling people what to wear or do with their bodies?

i understand what you're saying but i can also understand the security concerns regarding the burqa and perhaps even the niqab because it totally obscures one's identity, a man could wear a burqa and the difference could hardly be known. 

[MonsterPaws 2,745]

I'm a Muslim and I kind of agree with this. I don't like how you can clearly tell the target is on women who wear burqas but oh well. An incident of a woman who got stabbed by another in a burqa happened a couple of years ago and it took time to catch her since the security cameras couldn't identify her.

But I just hope this doesn't extend to the hijab which doesn't cover the face only the hair. Because then this would be religious discrimination, as burqas are more culturally rather than religiously required.

[Furrrealzjuan 137]

5 hours ago, kyanewest said:

In some countries it's compulsory to hide your face, and body, or just hair, yet nobody says anything. But when an European doesn't want to accept it according to THEIR culture, it's "racist". We have to accept and respect different cultures in different countries according to their beliefs and their values, if an European country doesn't fck with the concept of a woman hiding herself then it is what it is. Just like in some muslim countries you just cannot be a woman and wear normal clothes, it is what it is

I've been to Iraq and there are women who wear what they want. Just because you've seen some people from certain backgrounds do something, it doesn't mean the rest of them do 

 

.... And it is "normal clothes" to X individual 

[Guest]

Their (Dutch govmnt) intention is islamophobic and not feminist that's why I'm against that!

[Omar Vela 2,745]

It's just because you have to be easy to identify on security cameras, that's all!!!. The SJWs in this topic are cringe worthy...

[Omar Vela 2,745]

You know that if they allow burqas in places like government buildings or banks someone who isn't even a muslim (or even a woman) could easily put on a burqa, walk inside the place ...and since nobody can't tell her/him to show his face he can commit a crime and get away easily?

Some of you need to learn about possibilities and real life

[Dayum 240]

12 hours ago, Americano said:

Clearly targeting burqas regardless 

 

12 hours ago, Americano said:

Horrible and discriminatory 

 

So what? People always assume that any sort of discrimination is wrong inherently, and a piece of cloth which is not one of the main pillars of a religion must be upheld regardless of anything.

[Melech 9,900]

9 hours ago, Nicole said:

Disgusting. Some people may "get it" but it doesn't make it okay. how can these women do something as simple as taking their child to school, watching a school play or see their children get awards if they're not allowed in the school because of a religious headpiece they choose to wear? If identification was truely an issue for things like licenses or actually identifying the person - there are ways to actually go about that issue without humiliating them or introducing a law that disproportionately affects them and their freedom. 

Okay,tell me the other solutions.

And are you okay with people wearing clown maskets ?

Or that in countries like Saudi Arabia it is forced to wear a veil?

 

[Dayum 240]

12 hours ago, arctikstorm said:

I will never understand this idea that image (including clothing) has anything to do with what people actually do. Do you think a terrorist will only blow herself up if she uses a burqa? Or a doctor can only perform surgery if he's not tattooed? Or a bank employee can only do his job if he shaves and wears a suit and tie? Or a man can only be masculine if he doesn't wear a dress?

It's ridiculous! How about using those resources to actually control the security of the country instead of telling people what to wear or do with their bodies?

Although I agree that looks does not to any extent signify the talent of a person in any trade, but a business has a reputation to protect, and hiring someone who is looks slovenly at work is not a good sign for its customers. A terrorist will blow themselves up, but a burqa greatly increases the chances of them in succeeding because they are able to hide easily.

 

If a surgeon came in beggar's clothes or does not take a shower beforehand, or wears some fancy headgear or eyepiece, would the customer feel safe having him to operate on his body? If a man with an unkempt beard were to be the banker would the client trust him to be meticulous in his due diligence or would they think he would be as careless as he keeps his hygiene?

 

Prima facie a man in a dress cannot be masculine, and the only way they counter the femininity of the dress (by the way a dress is design so that a woman can look feminine, in case you are not aware of that) is by having a thick facial hair, or have muscular body, and short hair. If a guy decides to grow long hair, and keep a smooth skin throughout his face and body, wears a bra and dress and a pair of high heels, this is objectively a woman's look. Anyone would think he's a woman before he opens his mouth.

 

I feel like you want to go deeper than the looks, but I think this is just futile. For these instances, you should judge the book by its cover, which is obviously open to be rebutted. But everyone is entitled to their prima facie opinion of things.

[Melech 9,900]

7 hours ago, RichAssPiss said:

This argument is also used to discriminate against trans people, claiming they are not "identifiable" as their gender identity if it does not correlate with a birth certificate. It's bigoted rhetoric pretending to be non-biased. It is not about safety. It is about discrimination.

This is not comparable because those are two different pair of shoes. You can't chose your gender what you are feeling in. 

You can chose though to wear the veil. 

This comparison is transphobia at its finest.

[Dayum 240]

12 hours ago, The Fame Joanne said:

 I know some of them say they do, but if their society wouldn't have brainwashed them into "liking" to wear them they wouldn't.

I don't understand if they like to wear them, and we don't like them to wear them, why should we give way and not them? Especially on our own soil.

[Dayum 240]

12 hours ago, arctikstorm said:

The problem is the xenophobic thinking behind it. What if it's cold and I want to wear my scarf around my face because of it, what will happen then? I'll tell you: nothing because I don't "look muslim".

I think this type of thinking is the problem. Liberals try to shove every phobia into a cramped heart and pray that the door does not burst. You suppress suppress and suppress these feelings and one day it will erupt like Pandora's box. A better solution is to embrace this feeling and find ways to cure this feeling instead of verbally oppressing others for having such an opinion.

 

PS: Wearing a scarf provides warmth but a burqa does not have such a use.