Why are female artists so sexualised?

[RadioIsOurs 13,835]

2 minutes ago, TheLucifer said:

so actually you are mad because male artists are not as sexual as female ones?

#mess

utopia

juːˈtəʊpɪə/

noun

noun: utopia; plural noun: utopias

an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect.

synonyms:ideal place, paradise, heaven, heaven on earth, Eden, Garden of Eden, Shangri-La,Elysium, the Elysian Fields, Happy Valley, seventh heaven, idyll, nirvana, bliss; More

antonyms:hell on earth

           also

delusion

dɪˈl(j)uːʒ(ə)n/

noun

noun: delusion; plural noun: delusions

an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

"the delusion of being watched"

synonyms:misapprehension, mistaken impression, false impression, mistaken belief,misconception, misunderstanding, mistake, error, misinterpretation, misconstruction,misbelief; More

the action of deluding or the state of being deluded.

"what a capacity television has for delusion"

synonyms:deception, misleading, deluding, fooling, tricking, trickery, duping

"a web of delusion"

I'm mad because people like you are contributing to how society views sexuality among women, the notion that what they are doing is unacceptable among men, which makes women look even more inferior...

[RadioIsOurs 13,835]

****ing hell I already lost my own point somewhere among there...

[Bebe 16,811]

Just now, PotatoBanks said:

but it's clearly on Jay Z's (and the patriarchy as a whole)'s terms  her career depends on her being sexy, that's not fair to her or any other woman. 

I don't think that's a fair statement to make, I mean firstly what's so sexual about a damn leotard?

Secondly, I don't think Beyonce's career depends on her being sexy...

In the MV for her breakout hit with Destiny's Child 'No, No, No' Beyonce is wearing a jacket a crop top and shorts. In Destiny Child's biggest hit Say My Name she is wearing a crop top and long pants.

For her first solo hit Crazy In Love she wears a singlet and shorts.

In her most iconic VMA performance she is fully covered

She generally wears a leotard when performing... Which I really don't see as that sexual.

I mean Beyonce is extremely beautiful and is a sexy woman, but like... She is a famous celebrity. You could say that about most men in the industry too...

[PG lol 277]

Just now, RainbowBlonde said:

Yeah that's kinda true. Sex sells. Beyonce wouldn't be where she is now if she didn't show her butt. But then it has gotten to a point where it becomes 'empowering' to show your butt. Which I guess is fine except for the fact that most of your male counterparts wouldn't have to do all the same things to feel just as empowered... 

I still don't think it's empowering at all, and I think it's part of the greater issue that women HAVE to look better for men generally, like it;s an expectation. I was just thinking, that the least stereotypical woman in the pop sphere might be Adele (if you can think of any others please do bring them pls lol), Adele at first was breaking expectations, she wasn't slim, and that was her USP. Now though, she's slimmed down massively (no shade on her for that though) and seems to more closely meet societies expectations of beauty. It;s weird but Adele is still crazily beautiful and attractive. Whereas there are many male artists who aren't particularly pleasing to the eye, and yet their success is not hindered by this (no problem with this, if only the same courtesy would be extended to women). 

But then again beauty is in the eye of the beholder so maybe some people do find them attractive

 

 

[DAVID VOGUER 1,903]

10 minutes ago, RainbowBlonde said:

Isn't that a stubborn POV? Why do they have need to have your permission? Just like how women can be sexual on their own terms, it should also be the same for men. If they a guy wants to be sexual like women, he should be able to do so without having you judge him for it. 

you are looking too close at it... you can't see the forest for the trees... 

it's like saying, gaga is doing the same exact thing and they you remember that she was a straight male italian at one point and people didn't mock her for doing that

also, 

George Michael? (just an example... a good one)

...

 

 

or maybe it's just me not being interested in twinks or butcher girls

 

[RadioIsOurs 13,835]

6 minutes ago, Bebe said:

I don't think that's a fair statement to make, I mean firstly what's so sexual about a damn leotard?

Secondly, I don't think Beyonce's career depends on her being sexy...

In the MV for her breakout hit with Destiny's Child 'No, No, No' Beyonce is wearing a jacket a crop top and shorts. In Destiny Child's biggest hit Say My Name she is wearing a crop top and long pants.

For her first solo hit Crazy In Love she wears a singlet and shorts.

In her most iconic VMA performance she is fully covered

She generally wears a leotard when performing... Which I really don't see as that sexual.

I mean Beyonce is extremely beautiful and is a sexy woman, but like... She is a famous celebrity. You could say that about most men in the industry too...

But then all her dance moves... Idk there's something about the dance moves that almost feel stripper-like. That's the thing though. Men are encouraged not to be sexual that way because it's seen as degrading... It's all very conflicting... It has to be one way or the other in order to be equal, you get what I mean?

[Kayla 7,595]

1 hour ago, RF said:

 

Of couse! Youre both right but then again women complain men sexualize them

 That's not true (partially), most of this sexualization process is made by women themselves, yet the nazi feminists can't accept the truth.

Obviously this is a general statement, there are plenty of different cases etc

"nazi feminists"?   Please don't be so typical and dramatic with your insults. 

Most cases of sexualization that happen in our daily lives don't revolve around times when we sexualize ourselves. 
Examples would be: A girl who posted a picture of headphones, ONLY headphones, on snapchat and some dude responded with how he'd like to see her wearing only the headphones and nothing else (she was like 16 or 17), a weather reporter whose coworkers brought her a sweater because viewers found her dress inappropriate, a girl being kicked out of prom because her dress straps were less than 2inches wide, men driving past us and yelling as we walk down the street, etc. etc. 

I agree that when women dress scantily they shouldn't act so offended when people merely look at them, but they have every right to feel objectified when people inappropriately touch them, say crude things to them, and assume that their outfit indicates they want sexual advances. That's objectification, and it's wrong. 

 

1 hour ago, RainbowBlonde said:

I don't want to turn this into a heated argument, so please calm down and take a seat.

If I want to be offensive, I would be saying that women should all wear less clothes and act like a strippers around men, but my point is exactly the opposite. Men don't sell sex the same way women do. Let me just get straight to the point here. You cannot replace Beyonce with a male artist doing all the same moves in this video, wearing all the same type of clothes, and make him successful, because it wouldn't work. People would call him 'gay' and 'sissy'. They might be immature, but that's the type of mindset society have now, and it should change.

I actually agree with the concept you're outlining here and I think some people are missing certain parts of the point you are making. 

There IS a vast difference in how women are marketed, how they perform, and how they are represented in the media. 

Take for example the fact that we only have 30% of prominent roles in film but are nude in movies 200% as much in men. Hell, I was watching Furious 7 (don't judge me ) last night and they have so. many. shots of women's asses, talking about women's bodies, but the editors never made it a point to highlight the male features in the movie....And this is pretty typical- we always get the shots of women coming out of the pool, walking by where the camera focuses on their ass, but do the editors choose to highlight men in the same way for the sexual enjoyment of the women watching movies? Nope. 

So there is a level of inequality in the way that women are shown sexually, but I think we need to iron out how we view it. We need to think about where the power is.
When the woman makes the choice herself, does it for herself, and is in charge of how it is consumed, it's fine.
When someone forces her to do it, when she feels she HAS to in order to sell records, and when others take control of her sexuality either by objectification or profiting from it more than she does, then it's an issue. 

And of course, as others have done, to use G.U.Y. as an example it's like being sexually submissive. 
Doing it with a trusted partner who will stop when you ask them to puts the power in the submissives hands and is fine. 
Doing it with someone who is taking advantage of you and finding enjoyment while risking your well-being is an issue. 

[mic 1,415]

Coz it makes $$$$

/thread

[Bebe 16,811]

Just now, RainbowBlonde said:

But then all her dance moves... Idk there's something about the dance moves that almost feel stripper-like. That's the thing though. Men are encouraged not to be sexual that way because it's seen as degrading... It's all very conflicting... It has to be one way or the other in order to be equal, you get what I mean?

I disagree tbh. I mean... I don't see the choreo for Single Ladies to be stripper like or the video for Run The World or Formation or really any of her performances... Occasionally there is a little bit of a bum shake, but like she is dancing...

Even if she was dancing like a stripper, if it's on her own terms why does it matter?

Men are not encouraged to be sexy in that way because it's seen as feminine... Men are encouraged to be sexy in other ways that suit their gender norm. I don't think women have to stop expressing their sexuality in a certain way to be respected or seen as equal though.

Equal =/= same. Feminine expressions of sexuality should be regarded as equal as masculine expression of sexuality even if they are different. 

Like Nick Jonas is very sexual, Justin Bieber is very sexual, Adam Levine is very sexual, Miguel is very sexual, Chris Brown is sexual.

A woman wears a leotard and dances and she is seen as a stripper, a man takes his shirt off and grinds around and I don't see the same reaction.

To use Bieber as an example.

He is constantly stripping down on stage, grabbing his crotch, biting his lip and dancing. He is trying to look sexual, he is looking sexual. His dancing might be more masculine, his body might be different but the intention is the same. 

I don't see why Justin Bieber is off the hook, but Beyonce isn't  

[Kayla 7,595]

54 minutes ago, Bebe said:

But what Nino said is true? They express their sexuality differently because men and women are different.

The real question is why people see female expressions of sexuality as lesser or degrading. Justin Bieber can strip off whenever he feels, Nick Jonas can strip off and grab his crotch, Miguel can perform shirtless and rub his body, Zayne can go shirtless and lay down seductively, 5SOS can go naked, Adam Levine can strip naked with a female hand covering his crotch.

Looking at the VMA awards:

Beyonce wears a leotard, Britney wears a leotard, Nicki wears a leotard, Ariana wears a crop top with long pants, Hasely wears a crop top and long pants and Rihanna wore this

Like you have one gif of Beyonce dancing which is completely not reflective of the entire performance and have deemed that these women, dressing relatively normally are sexualising themselves and have described it as negative, demeaning and unnecessary. 

You made a good point. We have discussions and debates on women when they do something provocative, they lose their jobs when they're discovered to be involved in some form of nude or adult entertainment, we question if their actions are detrimental to the gender as a whole.

I don't see these same threads, articles, and debates happening when male artists grab their **** on stage or pose nude in a magazine, or shirtless and all oiled up. 

 

45 minutes ago, RainbowBlonde said:

Finally, a decent argument where I don't have to be called a ****ing misogynist.

I see your point. But then what I advocate for is to remove that 'difference'. I feel that men should be able to be sexual the same way women are, and still be seen as 'empowering'. Men should be able to twerk and dress revealingly without being judged. Then everything would actually be equal. 

Men don't need to use sexual expression to empower themselves because their sexual expression and gratification has not been stripped from them. Men have all the sexual empowerment they need. 

Ever notice how in high school we used to hear all about the GIRLS who slept around but the men who were sleeping with them magically never got called "sluts""?

Whenever stripping or ****ography comes up people also tend to focus on the women- how damaging it is, how they're using their bodies for bad things, etc. etc. So....if **** and stripping are so bad why is it only female strippers and female **** actors who get criticized for what they are doing? People don't see men in these sexual roles and view it as "degrading," but people view women being sexual as "degrading."

 

39 minutes ago, RainbowBlonde said:

Isn't that a stubborn POV? Why do they need to have your permission? Just like how women can be sexual on their own terms, it should also be the same for men. If a guy wants to be sexual like women, he should be able to do so without having you judge him for it. 

See my above comment. Men DO get sexual without judgment. 

Now, going on your point that men should be able to do the exact same thing as women, but would get **** for it if they did, I agree. If a man were to go on stage and twerk in a leotard, people would think it's gay, gross, etc. So in that sense, you are correct. 

But also consider the message it sends that when a man acts like a woman it's a bad thing, but when he shows sexuality in a masculine way it's apparently fine? The issue is that doing things like a woman is seen as degrading because people desperately try to degrade women, whether consciously or subconsciously. If we were to change how people perceived feminine forms of sexual expression we could make men expressing their sexuality in a feminine way an accepted thing. 

 

4 minutes ago, Bebe said:

I disagree tbh. I mean... I don't see the choreo for Single Ladies to be stripper like or the video for Run The World or Formation or really any of her performances... Occasionally there is a little bit of a bum shake, but like she is dancing...

Even if she was dancing like a stripper, if it's on her own terms why does it matter?

Men are not encouraged to be sexy in that way because it's seen as feminine... Men are encouraged to be sexy in other ways that suit their gender norm. I don't think women have to stop expressing their sexuality in a certain way to be respected or seen as equal though.

Equal =/= same. Feminine expressions of sexuality should be regarded as equal as masculine expression of sexuality even if they are different. 

Like Nick Jonas is very sexual, Justin Bieber is very sexual, Adam Levine is very sexual, Miguel is very sexual, Chris Brown is sexual.

A woman wears a leotard and dances and she is seen as a stripper, a man takes his shirt off and grinds around and I don't see the same reaction.

To use Bieber as an example.

He is constantly stripping down on stage, grabbing his crotch, biting his lip and dancing. He is trying to look sexual, he is looking sexual. His dancing might be more masculine, his body might be different but the intention is the same. 

I don't see why Justin Bieber is off the hook, but Beyonce isn't  

Men can literally go on stage in their undergarments and not have people calling them strippers, but a woman wears a leotard and all of a sudden she's compared to one. (no shade to strippers)

They can get all oiled up for photos, videos, and performances, but when women do people question whether or not they are setting our gender back a few decades by sexualizing ourselves. 

Now I would say women show their bodies WAY more and there's a certain inequality and underlying sexualization there (my movie stats posted in another comment, for example) that I think needs to be addressed and I DO think women need to think "Do I want to contribute to this statistic, and if so, how do I want it to be interpreted?" when doing things like this, but MORE importantly we need to help society agree that women are ALLOWED to be sexual beings. 

[RadioIsOurs 13,835]

4 minutes ago, Kayla said:

You made a good point. We have discussions and debates on women when they do something provocative, they lose their jobs when they're discovered to be involved in some form of nude or adult entertainment, we question if their actions are detrimental to the gender as a whole.

I don't see these same threads, articles, and debates happening when male artists grab their **** on stage or pose nude in a magazine, or shirtless and all oiled up. 

 

Men don't need to use sexual expression to empower themselves because their sexual expression and gratification has not been stripped from them. Men have all the sexual empowerment they need. 

Ever notice how in high school we used to hear all about the GIRLS who slept around but the men who were sleeping with them magically never got called "sluts""?

Whenever stripping or ****ography comes up people also tend to focus on the women- how damaging it is, how they're using their bodies for bad things, etc. etc. So....if **** and stripping are so bad why is it only female strippers and female **** actors who get criticized for what they are doing? People don't see men in these sexual roles and view it as "degrading," but people view women being sexual as "degrading."

 

See my above comment. Men DO get sexual without judgment. 

Now, going on your point that men should be able to do the exact same thing as women, but would get **** for it if they did, I agree. If a man were to go on stage and twerk in a leotard, people would think it's gay, gross, etc. So in that sense, you are correct. 

But also consider the message it sends that when a man acts like a woman it's a bad thing, but when he shows sexuality in a masculine way it's apparently fine? The issue is that doing things like a woman is seen as degrading because people desperately try to degrade women, whether consciously or subconsciously. If we were to change how people perceived feminine forms of sexual expression we could make men expressing their sexuality in a feminine way an accepted thing. 

 

Men can literally go on stage in their undergarments and not have people calling them strippers, but a woman wears a leotard and all of a sudden she's compared to one. (no shade to strippers)

They can get all oiled up for photos, videos, and performances, but when women do people question whether or not they are setting our gender back a few decades by sexualizing ourselves. 

Now I would say women show their bodies WAY more and there's a certain inequality and underlying sexualization there (my movie stats posted in another comment, for example) that I think needs to be addressed and I DO think women need to think "Do I want to contribute to this statistic, and if so, how do I want it to be interpreted?" when doing things like this, but MORE importantly we need to help society agree that women are ALLOWED to be sexual beings. 

I'm not worthy!

[MJHolland 12,723]

Because they realized if they don't have any talent, sex sells copies of their albums way easier than putting in hard work lol. 

[Bebe 16,811]

Just now, Kayla said:

Now I would say women show their bodies WAY more and there's a certain inequality and underlying sexualization there (my movie stats posted in another comment, for example) that I think needs to be addressed and I DO think women need to think "Do I want to contribute to this statistic, and if so, how do I want it to be interpreted?" when doing things like this, but MORE importantly we need to help society agree that women are ALLOWED to be sexual beings. 

This so much!

One thing that I do think is relevant to what @RainbowBlonde is saying and what you just mentioned is that often female performers are dressed or presented in a more sexualised way than their male counterparts even when performing together.

We saw it at the VMA awards with Britney and Eazy G

We see Rihanna twerk on Drake

We saw it when Miley twerked on Robin Thicke

We saw it with Nicki and Drake

It is very common and to me comes across in a way where women are overwhelmingly being presented as sexually submissive to men. It reads as these women being validated on some level by becoming attractive, desirable and maybe even unattainable. Men aren't often represented in the same way.

A lot of it is about context and power really and I agree that the most important thing is to allow women be sexual beings and express their sexuality.

 

[imnotyourbabe10 6,058]

Thank you so very much for this thread!  I wrestle with these ideas every day.  I believe gender and sexualities are socialized and constructed to a point of people accepting them as "real" when they are not---they are also commodified in order to sell "things" within our economic structure.  

A potential solution, in my view, is to eradicate our tendency towards binary thinking (ex: man/woman; masculine/feminine; good/bad)...we could also attempt to move towards an egalitarian, neutralization of gender and sexualities to foster an equality of human beings (perhaps we need to "de-sexualize" ourselves until we reach a more humane approach to sex).  Society does a good job of often times creating differences that are allegedly "real."  It seems that people do not want to accept that their gender is socialized/cultured/a performance and, subsequently subject to change.  

Here are some Wikipedia links to ideas that fall within this topic.  Sorry that they are only Wikipedia sources but the actual books are great reads.  Have a great day, all.  This thread makes me so happy to be a Little Monster and glad to have joined GGD! 

Some overall ideas about the biological/naturalization of gender and critiques of that thought: http://sociology.about.com/od/Sociological-Theory/a/Sociobiology.htm

My favorite feminist thinker, Gloria Steinem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloria_Steinem#****ography

A recent study, "Delusions of Gender: How Our Minds, Society and Neurosexism Create Difference" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusions_of_Gender    Also a video lecture from the author, Cordelia Fine: http://library.fora.tv/2010/10/02/Cordelia_Fine_Delusions_of_Gender

A classic from gender theorist Judith Butler: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Trouble

Robert Jensen (who does a lot of work with eradicating ****ography/masculinity and femininity).   [To be sure, this work is very graphic but important and I don't know how old everyone is on this forum]  Wikipedia Page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Jensen; Free PDF of his book: http://robertwjensen.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Getting-Off-by-Robert-Jensen.pdf.

Anyway, sorry for the super long post.  I know it comes off as vague but wanted to provide some interesting sources/a lens to look at the topic at hand.

 

[Iwontell 7,312]

Idk...you'll always hear the "they're taking control of their sexuality" line, but the opposite "if they're really in control they don't have to display themselves as something for man to fvck...where's JT performing in his undies...?" line is just as plausible...

In the end of the day, I think if comes down to (1) we're used to it - and going against the grain usually backfires - and (2) sex sells! I saw a lot of ppl commenting on what a great ass Beyoncé has or on how hot that woman in Kanye's video is...

I frankly don't condemn anybody for doing it...