Armed police remove woman's clothes at beach in France

[River 127,416]

32 minutes ago, Redstreak said:

Stop

****ing

infantilizing 

women

 

You're so wrapped up in some savior complex you can't even fathom you're own hypocrisy. "Women should be empowered to make their own choices as long as I agree with the choice she's making! I also somehow know her better than she does  and have determined she is trapped under an oppressive regime just by her clothing style!"

 

And then what happens when you fight and "enlighten" these women (because apparently they aren't smart enough without your help) and they continue to want to dress like that? Do you concede that it's their choice by design or do you simply scapegoat to some different form of covert theocracy?

 

Maybe instead of trying to assume you know what's best for these women, you behave in the same way you claim to want the "authoritative male/religion in her life" to behave, by not trying to have a hand in how these women carry themselves; too modest for you or not

 

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/modesty-misogyny

stop going personal and keep the discussion clean and mature, thank you.

just for the record, we both thinks what it's best for woman, just in a different point of view.

And it seems that you don't understand me, I'm against the modesty laws and burkini is a solution for those laws. as long as they are exist, women has no choice.

and as long as you are fighting against my point of view and trying so hard to keep those laws, you are oppressing women.

Why do you assume that I think they are not smart enough? it's your words, not mine, so maybe you assume that...

wow, I'm really shocked by your post...

cancel the modesty laws and I'll have no problem at all - that's it, please understand that and it's not only to woman, it's even for man and kids.

 

25 minutes ago, Nicole said:

On naming it the "burkini": "When I named it the burkini I didn’t really think it was a burqa for the beach. Burqa was just a word for me – I’d been brought up in Australia all my life, and I’d designed this swimsuit and I had to call it something quickly. It was the combination of two cultures – we’re Australians but we are also Muslim by choice. The burqa doesn’t symbolise anything here, and it’s not mentioned in the Qur’an and our religion does not ask us to cover our faces, it’s the wearer’s choice to do so. Burqa is nowhere in any Islamic text. I had to look the word up, and it was described as a kind of coat and cover-all, and at the other end you had the bikini, so I combined the two."

About the background you're saying you disagree with - the "control" that so many people seem to be worried about isn't as concerning as people make it out to be, among most Muslim communities anyway (talking about Westernised countries). I live in a predominately Arab/Middle-Eastern populated suburb, officially, Islam is the predominating religion in my suburb. I have friends who have celebrated the day where they see themselves ready to start wearing the hijab. They're proud to wear it. They'd never, ever been forced. To many, it's a journey. One of my friends personally refuses to wear one because she knows she's not ready for the commitment. Her finance has no problem with it. Many older Muslim women I know in my community have even taken theirs off, their husbands have had no problem with it. I'm not saying their aren't some men who may insist women wear it - I've seen them too - but people spend far too much time nitpicking Muslim women with some idea that every one of them need saving when in fact majority are quite happy the way they are living, probably more happy than the people that spend every minute of their time trying to find reasons to oppress them.

Until they - or anyone in any religion - say they need "help", people should stop trying to save them. 

"Muslim by choice" you are not choosing your religion, you are born into this.. very few are converting to another religion and in this case it's a choice.

The Islam like the Jewism is asking the women to cover themselves, not by the books but by the Rabbis or Imams which are men.

I didn't choose to be jewish and I didn't chose to be circumcised when I was 8 days old.

But this community is not representing all the Islam, here in my neighborhood, in France, I saw a husband hitting his wife on the street because she took off her hijab.

It's 50/50, some are happy, some are not and if there are some that not happy, so something is wrong..

[Redstreak 6,653]

16 minutes ago, River said:

stop going personal and keep the discussion clean and mature, thank you.

just for the record, we both thinks what it's best for woman, just in a different point of view.

And it seems that you don't understand me, I'm against the modesty laws and burkini is a solution for those laws. as long as they are exist, women has no choice.

and as long as you are fighting against my point of view and trying so hard to keep those laws, you are oppressing women.

Why do you assume that I think they are not smart enough? it's your words, not mine, so maybe you assume that...

wow, I'm really shocked by your post...

cancel the modesty laws and I'll have no problem at all - that's it, please understand that and it's not only to woman, it's even for man and kids.

Why do you assume these women are acting under some law? Have you talked to every Muslim woman on this planet and known for the fact that all of them who wear modesty clothing feel as if they're being forced to under their religion?

 

No, you haven't.

 

Christianity says don't lie, are you going to assume that every practicing Christian who doesn't tell a lie is simply doing it out of religious obligation and for no other reason? Or do you understand that some people can be religious and choose to do or not to do things of their own will regardless if the religion says it or not?

 

And no, I don't think I know what's best for women, hence my arguing that women should be allowed to choose which rules they wish to follow regardless if I personally agree with their context or not and as long as it doesn't endanger her life.

 

You assume that these women can't understand the choices they make. That the ONLY reason they would choose to dress the way they is because of a modesty law. That's why I assume you don't think they're smart enough. You're literally saying you don't think these women have the capacity to make these decisions of their own accord.

 

[River 127,416]

4 minutes ago, Redstreak said:

Why do you assume these women are acting under some law? Have you talked to every Muslim woman on this planet and known for the fact that all of them who wear modesty clothing feel as if they're being forced to under their religion?

 

No, you haven't.

 

Christianity says don't lie, are you going to assume that every practicing Christian who doesn't tell a lie is simply doing it out of religious obligation and for no other reason? Or do you understand that some people can be religious and choose to do or not to do things of their own will regardless if the religion says it or not?

 

And no, I don't think I know what's best for women, hence my arguing that women should be allowed to choose which rules they wish to follow regardless if I personally agree with their context or not and as long as it doesn't endanger her life.

 

You assume that these women can't understand the choices they make. That the ONLY reason they would choose to dress the way they is because of a modesty law. That's why I assume you don't think they're smart enough. You're literally saying you don't think these women have the capacity to make these decisions of their own accord.

 

Every religion have their own laws to keep everything in an order that they think it's correct and the first victim is the women, it's not an opinion, it's a fact.

Let's not pretend that the islam is not an oppressing religion just like the rest of the religions.. it's a dangerous thoughts.. do you really don't think that a religion is oppressing?

Do some research about the Islamic Feminism and you will understand better how they are oppressed and unfortunately they are a minority and the major reason is fear, the fear of joining them and saying your voice, I'm following them for a long time and I'm proud of them so much.

Also, do a research on ex-religious people and you will understand that "decision" "choices" it's not the same as you think, they clearly says that their decisions and choices didn't come from a free mind and they were educated that they need to be ashamed of their body and it's good for them to cover it, this is not a choice, it's an oppressed education that they didn't had the choice if they want it or not.

A choice is to be without religion by default and to wake up one day and say "I want to be part of x religion" and to follow it's rules and culture.

It's probably not easy to understand what I want to say or my point of view, because I believe in a world without religion and with 100% freedom and liberation and a world without borders and so on...

 

[Florian 20,017]

14 hours ago, TiphEret said:

I got super angry with that. Also I don't know if you guys understood but those decisions and "law" passed where done by mayor in some cities, so not all cities are doing this and that's why it had to stop because it was ruled as illegal. The ground to forbid someone of such clothing was not legitimate at all and honestly it's a shame that in France some mayor think that doing this is acceptable.

I could be a man going wearing a ski suit and a hat, would they undress me? No! it's clearly stigmatization and discrimination. It disgusts me and this under the disguise of the state of emergency for our own safety! I tell you what would make me feel safe: not corrupted politicians, stop creating wars and engage ind dialogue, respect the immigrants and their children that come to our country and respect their culture. Maybe they would be willing to integrate if we weren't condescending and spitting on them like we do now. 

That's not true. It has been stopped in only one city cause the decree wasn't justified. Burkini is still forbidden in Nice f. e.

[TiphEret 1,320]

5 hours ago, Florian said:

That's not true. It has been stopped in only one city cause the decree wasn't justified. Burkini is still forbidden in Nice f. e.

It's a decree though not a law passed in the whole country that was my point.

Sucks it's still in Nice. Honestly wtf is going on, I am just super angry!

[aaronyoji 2,064]

On August 26, 2016 at 11:51 AM, River said:

I would forbid all the religious symbols and clothes and turn all the synagogues, mosques and churches into museums, but oh well.. I can only dream..

I can't support this law but I can't support the burkini, the law is stupid and it's purpose is just to piss off the muslims and the easy target is a woman, instead of dealing with the extremists and jail them.....

but I can't support a cloth that covers the freedom of the woman, her body and her freedom to ****ing swim like a normal person, like how we're supposed to swim, with minimal clothes, especially to stay under the sun to tan our body.

Please, buy a burkini and spend one hour with it inside the water and outside under the sun to take some tan, if it's possible.. they choose it, of course, they don't have any other choice, because they can't wear a bikini, and of course they'll say that it's their choice, because it's risky to say that it's not.. and the most annoying thing is that their husbands are shirtless.. **** you to all those men, cover yourselves!!!

And it's not only muslims women, I see those Jewish orthodox women, swimming with full clothes, with long skirts inside the water, ffs, it's not normal, it's humiliating, it's brainwashing and needs to stop!!

"god" didn't say cover yourself when you go to the beach, but a man said that and this action is too extremists.

 

 

 

 

thats why its so hard being in between both arguments-their religion is inherently oppressive and no one wants to say it at risk of seeming racist, even though its a religion not a ****ing race. but on the other hand, even france can still be xenophobic and clearly target people for being muslim and have NOT handled it well in terms of regulating religious garments, because you know other religions don't get such harsh treatment. 

its such a conundrum. 

[aaronyoji 2,064]

12 hours ago, Redstreak said:

Why do you assume these women are acting under some law? Have you talked to every Muslim woman on this planet and known for the fact that all of them who wear modesty clothing feel as if they're being forced to under their religion?

 

No, you haven't.

 

Christianity says don't lie, are you going to assume that every practicing Christian who doesn't tell a lie is simply doing it out of religious obligation and for no other reason? Or do you understand that some people can be religious and choose to do or not to do things of their own will regardless if the religion says it or not?

 

And no, I don't think I know what's best for women, hence my arguing that women should be allowed to choose which rules they wish to follow regardless if I personally agree with their context or not and as long as it doesn't endanger her life.

 

You assume that these women can't understand the choices they make. That the ONLY reason they would choose to dress the way they is because of a modesty law. That's why I assume you don't think they're smart enough. You're literally saying you don't think these women have the capacity to make these decisions of their own accord.

 

so you're equating basic moral values like not lying, something that is beyond just a set of beliefs, to being 

coerced into body shaming religious garments that "protect" the "purity" of these "tempting" women?? no. its not the same.  

there is nothing inherent about a woman wanting to express modesty in these particular garments. you don't wanna wear a midriff or tank top? wear a sweater or long sleeve. that is modesty, a burqa is oppressive and was created out of an oppressive nature. this re-assigning to what the burqa actually is isn't feminist, its fear. they're still abiding to a male perspective-be it their god, or his followers- about what is right for them to wear, and show. 

[Redstreak 6,653]

46 minutes ago, aaronyoji said:

so you're equating basic moral values like not lying, something that is beyond just a set of beliefs, to being 

coerced into body shaming religious garments that "protect" the "purity" of these "tempting" women?? no. its not the same.  

there is nothing inherent about a woman wanting to express modesty in these particular garments. you don't wanna wear a midriff or tank top? wear a sweater or long sleeve. that is modesty, a burqa is oppressive and was created out of an oppressive nature. this re-assigning to what the burqa actually is isn't feminist, its fear. they're still abiding to a male perspective-be it their god, or his followers- about what is right for them to wear, and show. 

Like, we get it, y'all have a knee jerk reaction to anything having even the slightest relation to Islam, but stop pretending to act like you know how all these women operate. You can't be pro choice for only when women make decisions that reach your standard of pure secularism. It's not feminist. And I get it, I used to be immediately negative towards anything religious too but I mellowed out. These are westernized nations so the pressure is just not there. For you to say she only wore her clothing because of coercion is just gross and in some sense you are no better

[Economy 52,845]

On August 24, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Simon said:

Please, France is now Europes Saudi Arabia!

France just seems to hate on religion in general

 

Wasnt it also France that came up with some resiculous tax regime a few years agi for Jehovas Witnesses specifically that the EU Supreme Court decided was discriminatory and unconstitutional and so they had to scrap it?

[Economy 52,845]

4 hours ago, aaronyoji said:

so you're equating basic moral values like not lying, something that is beyond just a set of beliefs, to being 

coerced into body shaming religious garments that "protect" the "purity" of these "tempting" women?? no. its not the same.  

there is nothing inherent about a woman wanting to express modesty in these particular garments. you don't wanna wear a midriff or tank top? wear a sweater or long sleeve. that is modesty, a burqa is oppressive and was created out of an oppressive nature. this re-assigning to what the burqa actually is isn't feminist, its fear. they're still abiding to a male perspective-be it their god, or his followers- about what is right for them to wear, and show. 

A sweater is man made and invented by man. Just as a burqua was etc

 

your putting a sweater into a category of modesty by western culture values

 

 Modesty is subjective. Theres no specific fine line that says a sweater is and that other thing isnt

 

you dont have to agree with their culture or beliefs. But they should be respected

 

I live in a city near Toronto called "Brampton" and our muslim comunity is huge. They are quite happy people

 

Here antimuslim sentiment is minimal because we have so many we are accustomed to them. And you know what? They are happy and respectful people back

 

And they havent posed any security problems as a result of these dresses. In fact the very few muslims that have tried anything were men who obviously didnt wear their stuff

 

I just went to paramount for dinner tonight, a middle eastern chain restaurant thats quite popular in the Toronto area. Most waitresses wear head scarfs

 

They were so friendly and engaging and I talked to one of them. Didnt look opressed in the slightest!!!

[socotra 3,357]

I think this is awful. There are two questions I try to ask myself in determining if something is just or unjust: "Does this help anybody?" and "Does this hurt anybody?" Sure as hell isn't hurting anybody. The government should have absolutely no place in the practice of religion unless it harms someone else, and this harms not another soul.