P!nk normalises Domestic Violence

[Bebe 16,562]

1 hour ago, faysalaaa1 said:

The reason why this conversation keeps going in circle is because you are not making sense, I told you it was not P!nks intentions or message that she wanted to send and then you said that you knew that.. then I told you that the message that is none violence is obvious to the majority of people and then said you knew that.. so I then asked you that maybe you meant some people might get the wrong message and interpret it the wrong way and you said no and replied with this long comment!

If you know that Pinks intentions was not to support abuse and that people got the real intentions of pink behind her work and did not interpret it as normalizing abuse, then whats your problem?

You're right about one thing. We are going in circles.

Since OP, I have said that I don't think it's P!nk's intentions to send a message that glorifies or normalises domestic abuse but she does  I don't think she saw anything wrong with treating the abuse of a man as something funny, I don't think she found anything wrong with Try or the lyrics to True Love. But there IS something wrong with these things. Like I keep saying, her intentions are completely irrelevant to the conversation. When you keep bringing them up it means you keep ignoring what the conversation is about

You're not thinking in depth enough about the messages this is sending about abuse. I don't think anyone, including me, is watching this thinking "Oh wow domestic violence is funny, beautiful, glamorous". Have you ever analysed any texts before? Books, movies, songs? The subtle messages they contain go beyond the main plot of the text  

While most people are watching these videos going "Haha, the first video is funny - she is so crazy", "Wow that dance is beautiful, what a tragic and beautiful story" and "Haha it's so true! I relate to those lyrics! Sometimes I get so frustrated with my lover!" they are ALSO receiving messages on how to respond to abuse.

While watching the first video one of the messages they are receiving is "The abuse of men isn't serious, it's funny" whether they are aware of this or not... It's not just because of P!nk, there are many sources in the media that either outright or subtly send the same message. If you are not thinking about domestic abuse while watching those videos then it's even worse - because you are not aware of the messages you are being shown.

You view this and think of it as a funny story where P!nk is psychotic

You might view this and think Kim hitting Humphries out of anger is okay because he is smiling

 

You might view this and think it's funny that Lois hit Peter with a Frying Pan because he was being obnoxious and because she is so small and he is so big.

But in all these cases behind the humor, behind the basic plot, regardless of intention, certain ideas are being presented to us about domestic violence. This is Sociology 101.

When the main message about domestic violence against men that we are exposed to in media and art is that domestic violence against men is funny or not serious, that idea seeps into our culture and defines how our society treats domestic violence against men.

People laugh when they see a man getting abused by a women, in that video I've linked to you, because they have the idea in their head that such violence against men is not serious. They have that idea in their heads because of our culture. P!nk contributes to our culture with her popular songs and videos.

I'll link it to you again because I don't think you have watched it tbh

Real people laughing at what is domestic abuse against men. Nobody intervenes like they do with the woman. That comes from the subtle messages our culture sends about domestic abuse against men - that's the impact videos like P!nk's have.

It's not P!nk alone, but she is included in the problem.

[Wixson 4,900]

oh please

[mmm 879]

26 minutes ago, Bebe said:

You're right about one thing. We are going in circles.

Since OP, I have said that I don't think it's P!nk's intentions to send a message that glorifies or normalises domestic abuse but she does  I don't think she saw anything wrong with treating the abuse of a man as something funny, I don't think she found anything wrong with Try or the lyrics to True Love. But there IS something wrong with these things. Like I keep saying, her intentions are completely irrelevant to the conversation. When you keep bringing them up it means you keep ignoring what the conversation is about

You're not thinking in depth enough about the messages this is sending about abuse. I don't think anyone, including me, is watching this thinking "Oh wow domestic violence is funny, beautiful, glamorous". Have you ever analysed any texts before? Books, movies, songs? The subtle messages they contain go beyond the main plot of the text  

While most people are watching these videos going "Haha, the first video is funny - she is so crazy", "Wow that dance is beautiful, what a tragic and beautiful story" and "Haha it's so true! I relate to those lyrics! Sometimes I get so frustrated with my lover!" they are ALSO receiving messages on how to respond to abuse.

While watching the first video one of the messages they are receiving is "The abuse of men isn't serious, it's funny" whether they are aware of this or not... It's not just because of P!nk, there are many sources in the media that either outright or subtly send the same message. If you are not thinking about domestic abuse while watching those videos then it's even worse - because you are not aware of the messages you are being shown.

You view this and think of it as a funny story where P!nk is psychotic

You might view this and think Kim hitting Humphries out of anger is okay because he is smiling

 

You might view this and think it's funny that Lois hit Peter with a Frying Pan because he was being obnoxious and because she is so small and he is so big.

But in all these cases behind the humor, behind the basic plot, regardless of intention, certain ideas are being presented to us about domestic violence. This is Sociology 101. 

When the main message about domestic violence against men that we are exposed to in media and art is that domestic violence against men is funny or not serious, that idea seeps into our culture and defines how our society treats domestic violence against men.

People laugh when they see a man getting abused by a women, in that video I've linked to you, because they have the idea in their head that such violence against men is not serious. They have that idea in their heads because of our culture and P!nk contributes to our culture with her popular songs and videos.

I'll link it to you again because I don't think you have watched it tbh

Real people laughing at what is domestic abuse against men. Nobody intervenes like they do with the woman. That comes from the subtle messages our culture sends about domestic abuse against men - that's the impact videos like P!nk's have.

Again, I talked about pink intentions but thats not the only think I talked about.. I talked about the content itself and the way people received her work I showed you how it has nothing to do with violence or abuse. The first video is about a fantasy after being angry or needy of someone who will leave you and the second video is about making it work and trying even if the relationship is not compatible witch none promotes abuse! If you agree that pinks intentions AND CONTECT AND THE WAY PEOPLE INTERPRET HER WORK does not normalize abuse, what is your problem exactly? This is my last comment if your next comment will be the exact same thing.

Also, you can easily make your comments way shorter than this.

[Dominic 11,922]

What a great discussion point. I didn't agree at first but the more I read of your posts the more I did. Society has such a massive bias when it comes to domestic violence and it's examples like these that enforce those beliefs. 

If the roles were reversed it would be seen as promoting domestic abuse against women and there would be a massive uproar. It's largely societies attitudes that 'men should be men' thay stops male victims speaking out in fear of looking weak. 

Switch the roles and I guarantee a majority would cry out that it would be normalising and glamorising domestic violence. 

[Kermit 15,807]

I have always been immune to her lyrical manner. I thought it went with the whole raging lesbian, who rides a Harley and chews tobacco theme. 

[Bebe 16,562]

1 hour ago, faysalaaa1 said:

Again, I talked about pink intentions but thats not the only think I talked about.. I talked about the content itself and the way people received her work I showed you how it has nothing to do with violence or abuse. The first video is about a fantasy after being angry or needy of someone who will leave you and the second video is about making it work and trying even if the relationship is not compatible witch none promotes abuse! If you agree that pinks intentions AND CONTECT AND THE WAY PEOPLE INTERPRET HER WORK does not normalize abuse, what is your problem exactly? This is my last comment if your next comment will be the exact same thing.

Also, you can easily make your comments way shorter than this.

Yes, but as I keep trying to explain to you about the content itself and how people are viewing it: Just because people aren't viewing that work and thinking about domestic abuse and violence doesn't mean that the work isn't sending those people messages about domestic abuse and violence.

People can watch the first video and see it as "a fantasy after being angry or needy of someone who will leave you " as you describe it. People can watch  Try and see it as being about "making it work and trying even if the relationship is not compatible" and still they are receiving messages, whether they are aware or not, about domestic abuse  People watch Try and they know the story is about trying to make a relationship work even when it is not compatible, at the same time through the depictions of domestic violence in the choreography and they are being sent a certain message about domestic abuse.

People are seeing Please Don't Leave me as a humerous, funny video that is fantasy. We both know this. BUT domestic abuse is still being portrayed in that video and it's still sending a message to the audience about how we should think about and treat domestic abuse - you might not even be aware that you are getting these messages, but they are clearly there within the work through her depictions of domestic violence.

My posts are long, but it's only because it feels like you lack so much background information that I need to explain every little detail. Please actually read what I am writing to you, because I keep telling you how P!nk's intentions and how people are viewing each video on a surface level is completely irrelevant to the argument I am making.

[mmm 879]

4 minutes ago, Bebe said:

Yes, but as I keep trying to explain to you about the content itself and how people are viewing it: Just because people aren't viewing that work and thinking about domestic abuse and violence doesn't mean that the work isn't sending those people messages about domestic abuse and violence.

People can watch the first video and see it as "a fantasy after being angry or needy of someone who will leave you " as you describe it. People can watch  Try and see it as being about "making it work and trying even if the relationship is not compatible" and still they are receiving messages, whether they are aware or not, about domestic abuse  People watch Try and they know the story is about trying to make a relationship work even when it is not compatible, at the same time through the depictions of domestic violence in the choreography and they are being sent a certain message about domestic abuse.

People are seeing Please Don't Leave me as a humerous, funny video that is fantasy. We both know this. BUT domestic abuse is still being portrayed in that video and it's still sending a message to the audience about how we should think about and treat domestic abuse - you might not even be aware that you are getting these messages, but they are clearly there within the work through her depictions of domestic violence.

My posts are long, but it's only because it feels like you lack so much background information that I need to explain every little detail. Please actually read what I am writing to you, because I keep telling you how P!nk's intentions and how people are viewing each video on a surface level is completely irrelevant to the argument I am making.

Ok now you make your point clear.. everything you said though have no evidence.. you can take out anything from any work that exist and turn it in a negative way saying its sending this or that message. I can easily take any of Gagas work and say the same thing or worse.

[Bebe 16,562]

Just now, faysalaaa1 said:

Ok now you make your point clear.. everything you said though have no evidence.. you can take out anything from any work that exist and turn it in a negative way saying its sending this or that message. I can easily take any of Gagas work and say the same thing or worse.

Again though, I promise that if you read my posts I do provide evidence. There is clear evidence, from the video, that Please Don't Leave Me portrays domestic violence against men as something non-serious, flippant or funny.

I provide evidence that this message (domestic violence against men isn't serious and is funny) is common within other forms of media too (such as Family Guy) and I have posted a video that shows real people laughing at real cases of domestic abuse against men - so you can see that this cultural message is something serious which has real world consequences.

[mmm 879]

24 minutes ago, Bebe said:

Again though, I promise that if you read my posts I do provide evidence. There is clear evidence, from the video, that Please Don't Leave Me portrays domestic violence against men as something non-serious, flippant or funny.

I provide evidence that this message (domestic violence against men isn't serious and is funny) is common within other forms of media too (such as Family Guy) and I have posted a video that shows real people laughing at real cases of domestic abuse against men - so you can see that this cultural message is something serious which has real world consequences.

Yes violence against men is a real problem and nobody takes it seriously because society views men as disposables but this does not mean I cant make a video abusing a man even if it contributes to society normalizing male abuse because thats their problem, not mine. Like I said, you can find anything in any work and complain about it linking it to society cultural problem but you can hold these things responsible. Please we dont need feminists to defend and fight for men..

[Bebe 16,562]

21 minutes ago, faysalaaa1 said:

Yes violence against men is a real problem and nobody takes it seriously because society views men as disposables but this does not mean I cant make a video abusing a man even if it contributes to society normalizing male abuse because thats their problem, not mine. Like I said, you can find anything in any work and complain about it linking it to society cultural problem but you can hold these things responsible. Please we dont need feminists to defend and fight for men..

"Yes violence against men is a real problem and nobody takes it seriously because society views men as disposables but this does not mean I cant make a video abusing a man even if it contributes to society normalizing male abuse"

Firstly, I am not at all suggesting P!nk can't or shouldn't be able to make songs and videos like this - she is absolutely free to do so and I am free to criticise the songs and videos and the songs. Secondly, despite being free to do so, I think it's irresponsible to create a video that normalises domestic violence. You can create videos that send positive messages about how domestic abuse or you can create videos that are insensitive to the issue and send negative messages about domestic abuse.

I for one would never knowingly create a video that normalises domestic abuse because I wouldn't want to send that message. It's not consistent with my values, my morals and what I believe. You do realise that society doesn't take violence against men seriously because we recieve messages like these It's a cultural problem.

I don't think you can find anything in any work and link it to societies cultural problems  At least not in such a brazen way. These videos and songs portray domestic violence in some fashion and it's fair to critique how this violence is being portrayed and how it adds to the cultural perception of domestic violence.

"We don't need feminists to defend and fight for men" 

Either you see this as a feminist issue or you don't  Either way it doesn't make the problem of domestic abuse against men unimportant. I support violence against women campaigns, when the focus is on women (who are still hugely disproportionately affected by domestic abuse) I don't derail the conversation by talking about male victims... I see the importance of treating domestic abuse as a gendered issue due to the fact that women are so disproportionately affected. Doesn't mean we can't ever also criticise abuse against men though. It doesn't make abuse against men a non-issue. There are spaces where domestic violence against men can be talked about and it doesn't have to overshadow the huge problem with domestic violence that so many women face.

I only used the example for Please Don't Leave me as you were complaining that my posts are too long, but videos like Try are problematic more for female victims of domestic abuse. It just so happens that her first video deals with domestic abuse against men.

[mmm 879]

15 minutes ago, Bebe said:

"Yes violence against men is a real problem and nobody takes it seriously because society views men as disposables but this does not mean I cant make a video abusing a man even if it contributes to society normalizing male abuse"

Firstly, I am not at all suggesting P!nk can't or shouldn't be able to make songs and videos like this - she is absolutely free to do so and I am free to criticise the songs and videos and the songs. Secondly, despite being free to do so, I think it's irresponsible to create a video that normalises domestic violence. You can create videos that send positive messages about how domestic abuse or you can create videos that are insensitive to the issue and send negative messages about domestic abuse.

I for one would never knowingly create a video that normalises domestic abuse because I wouldn't want to send that message. It's not consistent with my values, my morals and what I believe. You do realise that society doesn't take violence against men seriously because we recieve messages like these It's a cultural problem.

I don't think you can find anything in any work and link it to societies cultural problems  At least not in such a brazen way. These videos and songs portray domestic violence in some fashion and it's fair to critique how this violence is being portrayed and how it adds to the cultural perception of domestic violence.

"We don't need feminists to defend and fight for men" 

Either you see this as a feminist issue or you don't  Either way it doesn't make the problem of domestic abuse against men unimportant. I support violence against women campaigns, when the focus is on women (who are still hugely disproportionately affected by domestic abuse) I don't derail the conversation by talking about male victims... I see the importance of treating domestic abuse as a gendered issue due to the fact that women are so disproportionately affected. Doesn't mean we can't ever also criticise abuse against men though. It doesn't make abuse against men a non-issue. There are spaces where domestic violence against men can be talked about and it doesn't have to overshadow the huge problem with domestic violence that so many women face.

I only used the example for Please Don't Leave me as you were complaining that my posts are too long, but videos like Try are problematic more for female victims of domestic abuse. It just so happens that her first video deals with domestic abuse against men.

How boring would it be to do a video against domestic abuse? there is many videos about that but art is about expressing your desires and dark thoughts even if its bad and while yes you are not telling her she should not be allowed to do so, you are creating this PC culture that is offended and triggered by everything and that will ruin education and art. Yes you can get any work and claim it contributes to something negative.. Almost all of Gagas videos are about her going on a mission to killing her boyfriend.

No people dont take male abuse seriously not because of messages like these, these messages exist because people already have this idea of men and it is portrayed through the media.. the reason people view men as something disposable is because the state have used men as one to protect the country and family since the beginning of time and when someone like Hilary says the real victim of wars are women! Also because government has taken the place of men and replaced them so women would depend on the government and treat men as something they dont need or care for because she is an independent woman or whatever she thinks she is.

I never said you shouldnt talk about male victims, actually there is many studies that shows men are abused as much as women but I dont want it to be a feminist issue because they will turn our issues into theirs and blame it on masculinity and the patriarchy.

[Bebe 16,562]

Just now, faysalaaa1 said:

How boring would it be to do a video against domestic abuse? there is many videos about that but art is about expressing your desires and dark thoughts even if its bad and while yes you are not telling her she should not be allowed to do so, you are creating this PC culture that is offended and triggered by everything and that will ruin education and art. Yes you can get any work and claim it contributes to something negative.. Almost all of Gagas videos are about her going on a mission to killing her boyfriend.

No people dont take male abuse seriously not because of messages like these, these messages exist because people already have this idea of men and it is portrayed through the media.. the reason people view men as something disposable is because the state have used men as one to protect the country and family since the beginning of time and when someone like Hilary says the real victim of wars are women! Also because government has taken the place of men and replaced them so women would depend on the government and treat men as something they dont need or care for because she is an independent woman or whatever she thinks she is.

I never said you shouldnt talk about male victims, actually there is many studies that shows men are abused as much as women but I dont want it to be a feminist issue because they will turn our issues into theirs and blame it on masculinity and the patriarchy.

You can tell a beautiful, intriguing, powerful video that can send a positive message about domestic abuse. 
There is no reason why you should think it's a bad thing to critique art and discuss how it is affecting our culture. Art isn't meaningless, let's not talk about it like it is.

"No people dont take male abuse seriously not because of messages like these, these messages exist because people already have this idea of men and it is portrayed through the media"

It works both ways  P!nk has these ideas about violence that she doesn't realise are problematic, she puts it in her video, she helps continues the cycle.

" I dont want it to be a feminist issue because they will turn our issues into theirs and blame it on masculinity and the patriarchy."  Whatever. It isn't what we are discussing anyway.

[mmm 879]

3 minutes ago, Bebe said:

You can tell a beautiful, intriguing, powerful video that can send a positive message about domestic abuse. 
There is no reason why you should think it's a bad thing to critique art and discuss how it is affecting our culture. Art isn't meaningless, let's not talk about it like it is.

Criticizing something is fine but making everything PC just to not trigger someone or contribute to something by mistake will ruin art.. you are not criticizing art, you are criticizing its effect on society witch should never change an artistic expression.

[Bebe 16,562]

9 minutes ago, faysalaaa1 said:

Criticizing something is fine but making everything PC just to not trigger someone or contribute to something by mistake will ruin art.. you are not criticizing art, you are criticizing its effect on society witch should never change an artistic expression.

I'm not making everything PC  
You are underestimating the importance of the media and art in our culture. You are underestimating how much it influences our culture. It is integral to question and criticise the messages we receive in art and media.

As an artist, you have a message you want to portray. As someone who is a director, as someone who makes short films, I have to make sure the message I am sending in my work is clear and representative of what I believe.

I don't think that P!nk would want to create a video like Please Don't Leave Me if she thought about the message she was sending with that video. As a creator you want to have a message and you have to think about the messages you are sending. As someone who is inundated with media everywhere I go, I have to be aware of the messages being sent in the media and art I am exposed too.

[mmm 879]

29 minutes ago, Bebe said:

I'm not making everything PC  
You are underestimating the importance of the media and art in our culture. You are underestimating how much it influences our culture. It is integral to question and criticise the messages we receive in art and media.

As an artist, you have a message you want to portray. As someone who is a director, as someone who makes short films, I have to make sure the message I am sending in my work is clear and representative of what I believe.

I don't think that P!nk would want to create a video like Please Don't Leave Me if she thought about the message she was sending with that video. As a creator you want to have a message and you have to think about the messages you are sending. As someone who is inundated with media everywhere I go, I have to be aware of the messages being sent in the media and art I am exposed too.

I do underestimate the importance and effect of art and the media in our culture but that would never make me want to change or repress an artistic expression.. Art and culture both mirror each other and sometimes art make us look at our true ugly self. What I would have a problem with is art and media that is driven by propaganda to create certain things but free art should always be left the way it is regardless of its effect on culture.

An artist should not think about the message they will send, an artist should only express their own feelings without thinking no matter how ugly they are or how other perceive them or the effect it will have. We should learn from art and try to understand why an individual, a group of people or society would have these artistic expression but we should never follow what art tells us.

You cant blame everything on culture.. absence family and a father figures for example is what creates horrible things in society and makes young girls easily effected by something like Pinks video and seeing violence as something normal.