P!nk normalises Domestic Violence

[Bebe 17,094]

3 minutes ago, SecretWeapon said:

Because your point is ridiculous and your argument about "yelling freedom of speech" applies to what you're doing as well lol. You can say its "problematic" or w.e. and you can even be right, but why does she need to behave differently? Should she spew bs just because it might "trigger" someone? The answer is no.

argument about "yelling freedom of speech" apply to me? It doesn't at all

Again she doesn't need to do anything, I'm not forcing her to do anything. I'm hoping she chooses to change the way she portrays domestic abuse because I think it's problematic, harmful and contributes to a culture that glamorises abuse. 

She shouldn't spew bs, but I happen to think that's what she is doing right now  

[Bebe 17,094]

6 minutes ago, Scarlet said:

She's not describing that the entire relationship is based off of them pissing her off 

Please don't nitpick one little line in my paragraph to deflect away from the conversation or my points. If you really want you can cut out that line and my point still stands. Make it:

"You can love someone despite them sometimes pissing you off, but the fact that they piss you off isn't evidence that your love is true."

She literally writes: "But I hate you, I really hate you, so much I think it must be True love.” 
The fact that you hate someone isn't evidence that your love is true. She offers her violent feelings and her hatred as proof that she loves someone. That's problematic.

The problem is P!nk directly associating her violent feelings with passion and love. The problem is that P!nk is portraying her hatred and her violent feelings as evidence of love. Hate =/= proof of love. Wanting to slap someone or choke someone =/= proof of love.

 

[Alcina Dimitrescu 1,156]

1 minute ago, Bebe said:

Again she doesn't need to do anything, I'm not forcing her to do anything. I'm hoping she chooses to change the way she portrays domestic abuse because I think it's problematic, harmful and contributes to a culture that glamorises abuse. 

"I'm within my right to criticize her! freedom of speech!"

I for one, hope she or anyone else changes or compromises their artistry for political correctness sake  spewing bs would be singing things she doesnt feel. 

[Bebe 17,094]

Just now, SecretWeapon said:

"I'm within my right to criticize her! freedom of speech!"

I for one, hope she or anyone else changes or compromises their artistry for political correctness sake  spewing bs would be singing things she doesnt feel. 

You have misinterpreted my argument if you think that's what my argument was  It's a false equivalency. 

Your original quote was: "So? Its her music, she can write/sing about whetever she wants" This implies that any critique is irrelevant because she can do and say whatever.

My reply was "She has the right to sing and write about whatever she wants, and people have the right to criticise her work when it seems problematic" That implies that we are both free to voice our opinions and does not imply that others cannot criticise me or my opinion. It doesn't imply that any critique of my critique is irrelevant

If my argument was "You can't critique my critique of P!nk!! I have every right to critique her!" then you would make sense.

I absolutely hope she doesn't compromise her artistry or sing about things she doesn't feel  It would be nice if she thought about the messages sent in her music and videos and decided that didn't reflect her values and how she feels though

[imwoahvicky 4,248]

3 minutes ago, Bebe said:

Please don't nitpick one little line in my paragraph to deflect away from the conversation or my points. If you really want you can cut out that line and my point still stands. Make it:

"You can love someone despite them sometimes pissing you off, but the fact that they piss you off isn't evidence that your love is true."

She literally writes: "But I hate you, I really hate you, so much I think it must be True love.” 
The fact that you hate someone isn't evidence that your love is true. She offers her violent feelings and her hatred as proof that she loves someone. That's problematic.

The problem is P!nk directly associating her violent feelings with passion and love. The problem is that P!nk is portraying her hatred and her violent feelings as evidence of love. Hate =/= proof of love. Wanting to slap someone or choke someone =/= proof of love.

 

You're still missing the point of the entire song though 

This is what Pink has said: "I figured out that no one can push your buttons like your mother or your partner. I have a tattoo on my wrist that says 'True Love' with Carey's name under it. I think lyrically its really funny and really honest."

Like I stated time and time again, she is literally just talking about how sometimes she just really, really hates Carey sometimes and just wants to punch him in the face because he just knows how to push her buttons or he upsets her sometimes. 

In the end, she knows that no relationship is perfect and no matter how much your significant other irritates, you will always still love them.

That's true love. 

[Bebe 17,094]

Just now, Scarlet said:

You're still missing the point of the entire song though 

This is what Pink has said: "I figured out that no one can push your buttons like your mother or your partner. I have a tattoo on my wrist that says 'True Love' with Carey's name under it. I think lyrically its really funny and really honest."

Like I stated time and time again, she is literally just talking about how sometimes she just really, really hates Carey sometimes and just wants to punch him in the face because he just knows how to push her buttons or he upsets her sometimes. 

In the end, she knows that no relationship is perfect and no matter how much your significant other irritates, you will always still love them.

That's true love. 

What P!nk has said about the song and what you are saying about the song changes absolutely nothing though  I'm really not missing the point of the song, it's you that is missing my point.

I could re-write your point for days:

What Pink is talking about is that feeling you get in relationships, inevitably your partner is going to step on your toes and annoy you. You are going to get upset and angry at your partner sometimes! Sometimes you might feel like hurting them but that doesn't mean you will! Pink loves him no matter what and loves him no matter how much he might irritate her and push her buttons! That's what true love is!!

That is basically your point right? Am I missing anything?

Once again her expressing these frustrations is NOT the problem. The problem is that the only reasons she gives for loving him is that he irritates her and angers her so much. The only reasons she gives for loving him is that she wants to hurt him and that she really hates him.

"I really hate you, so much I think it must be True love.”

Throughout the song she conflates conflict with passion and she conflates violence and hatred with love.

If the song lyrics went something like "Sometimes you make me want to pull my hair out, sometimes you make me want to scream, but despite all this it's true love" then there would be no issue.

If the song lyrics went something like "Sometimes I want to slap you, sometimes I hate you, but you are always so sweet" then there would be less of an issue (i'd still take issue with the language concerning wanting to physically harm your partner, but it would be better).

[DrewStevens 5,249]

It's quite ridiculous to find a thread like this on GAGAdaily considering Gaga "normalizes" murder ALL the time.

Lyrics and music videos are not always supposed to be taken literally. And music is also not supposed to be politically correct or even correct.

[Bebe 17,094]

1 hour ago, DrewStevens said:

It's quite ridiculous to find a thread like this on GAGAdaily considering Gaga "normalizes" murder ALL the time.

Lyrics and music videos are not always supposed to be taken literally. And music is also not supposed to be politically correct or even correct.

I think murder is a separate issue, I don't know that you can really 'normalise' murder. Normalising gun violence maybe? But again I don't know that it's something that can be normalised to the same degree.

The heart of domestic abuse is a social/cultural issue that interlinks with gender, power imbalance and societies perception of women. I don't think that murder or gun violence generally works in the same way. I think there is a difference between domestic violence and other forms of violence because domestic violence is so hugely intertwined with cultural values.

In the same way that I say that I doubt P!nk is responsible in anyway for any sort of act of domestic violence, she isn't converting people to punch their partners, I don't think Gaga can be held responsible for any murders, I don't think she is encouraging anyone to kill.

What I am saying is that through the glamorisation of domestic violence or through the flippant portrayal of spousal violence P!nk is contributing to a culture that doesn't treat domestic violence seriously, she is contributing to a culture that tells abusers what they are doing is normal and she is contributing to a culture that tells those abused to keep on trying with the relationship in the hopes the abuser will change.

I think Gaga can be criticised for normalising or glamorising domestic abuse issues too though for the record, I think that's actually something that can be seen in a lot of her work. I don't see how that has anything to do with this topic or how it makes this topic ridiculous

Gaga has glamorised domestic violence in videos like Paparazzi for example. Vogue has photoshoots featuring battered female models, Eminem and Rihanna make songs and videos that romanticise domestic violence, Glee stars take 'edgy' photos with a black eye being tied up by the electrical cord of a an iron. A woman like Amber Heard claims she has been abused and articles and comments flood the internet questioning her credibility. Books like Twilight portray and romanticise a relationship where the guy is a controlling, overly-jealous stalker who tells Bella that he might go out of control and kill her.

P!nk's lyrics and videos are just one small part of a culture that glamorises and normalises domestic violence, but I don't think that makes them any less relevant to talk about. I just noticed a pattern in her work and made a thread. I don't think it makes me a hypocrite or makes this thread ridiculous just because Gaga can also be problematic

Nobody has said lyrics and videos are supposed to be taken literally, nobody has said music has to be politically correct

[DrewStevens 5,249]

14 minutes ago, Bebe said:

I think murder is a separate issue, I don't know that you can really 'normalise' murder. Normalising gun violence maybe? But again I don't know that it's something that can be normalised to the same degree.

The heart of domestic abuse is a social/cultural issue that interlinks with gender, power imbalance and societies perception of women. I don't think that murder or gun violence generally works in the same way. I think there is a difference between domestic violence and other forms of violence because domestic violence is so hugely intertwined with cultural values.

In the same way that I say that I doubt P!nk is responsible in anyway for any sort of act of domestic violence, she isn't converting people to punch their partners, I don't think Gaga can be held responsible for any murders, I don't think she is encouraging anyone to kill.

What I am saying is that through the glamorisation of domestic violence or through the flippant portrayal of spousal violence P!nk is contributing to a culture that doesn't treat domestic violence seriously, she is contributing to a culture that tells abusers what they are doing is normal and she is contributing to a culture that tells those abused to keep on trying with the relationship in the hopes the abuser will change.

I think Gaga can be criticised for normalising or glamorising domestic abuse issues too though for the record, I think that's actually something that can be seen in a lot of her work. I don't see how that has anything to do with this topic or how it makes this topic ridiculous

Gaga has glamorised domestic violence in videos like Paparazzi for example. Vogue has photoshoots featuring battered female models, Eminem and Rihanna make songs and videos that romanticise domestic violence, Glee stars take 'edgy' photos with a black eye being tied up by the electrical cord of a an iron. P!nk's lyrics and videos are just one small part of a culture that glamorises and normalises domestic violence, but I don't think that makes them any less relevant to talk about.

Nobody has said lyrics and videos are supposed to be taken literally, nobody has said music has to be correct or politically correct

To be honest I don't agree with your perception of how her lyrics and videos are normalizing abuse. I understand where you are coming from but I don't think it's an issue and I don't see how glamorizing murder and gun violence is less of an issue, specially in America where gun violence is such a big problem.

In my opinion these three songs do reference to violent thoughts and complicated/toxic relationships but these songs are not normalizing those things either. Just because someone sings about a certain topic it doesn't mean they are normalizing or glamorizing such thing and it this case I don't think any of these songs actually says real abuse is normal or tolerable.

Of course a person who is in an abusive relationship can relate to her songs and think that abuse is normal because of what her songs say but that doesn't mean the song is directly related to the violence.

So I honestly don't think she is glamorizing or romanticizing domestic violence unlike Emienm and Rihanna did with Love The Way You Lie. She does sing about toxic and complicated relationships but she never actually says it's ok to be violent against your partner or that you should stay in an actual abusive relationship.

[Bebe 17,094]

Just now, DrewStevens said:

To be honest I don't agree with your perception of how her lyrics and videos are normalizing abuse. I understand where you are coming from but I don't think it's an issue and I don't see how glamorizing murder and gun violence is less of an issue, specially in America where gun violence is such a big problem.

In my opinion these three songs do reference to violent thoughts and complicated/toxic relationships but these songs are not normalizing those things either. Just because someone sings about a certain topic it doesn't mean they are normalizing or glamorizing such thing and it this case I don't think any of these songs actually says real abuse is normal or tolerable.

Of course a person who is in an abusive relationship can relate to her songs and think that abuse is normal because of what her songs say but that doesn't mean the song is directly related to the violence.

So I honestly don't think she is glamorizing or romanticizing domestic violence unlike Emienm and Rihanna did with Love The Way You Lie. She does sing about toxic and complicated relationships but she never actually says it's ok to be violent against your partner or that you should stay in an actual abusive relationship.

"Just because someone sings about a certain topic it doesn't mean they are normalizing or glamorizing such thing"

I agree with this completely, what I disagree with is

"and in this case I don't think any of these songs actually says real abuse is normal or tolerable."


In the video for Please Don't Leave me she is making a parody out of Misery, in the video she is portraying the abuse of her partner as something funny and comical. That downplays the seriousness of domestic violence. After breaking his legs she asks "What is it with you that makes me act like this? I've never been this nasty" blaming him for her nastiness and her abuse.

In the video for Try she sings about getting hurt and burned and having to get back up and try while she performs a beautiful dance routine that happens to also show her being punched, choked, kicked, thrown to the floor and dragged around the house. The end has the two running together to embrace, in her performances of this song it ends with her partner lifting her up. This sends a message to abuse victims that, like P!nk, despite being punched, kicked and choked you have to get back up and keep trying at the relationship.

The lyrics for True Love have her describing her violent feelings and her hatred as evidence of true love. She conflates love and passion with conflict and violence.  The only evidence she gives for why it's true love is how much she hates him or how much conflict there is and how much he pushes her buttons.

"I really hate you, so much, I think it must be true love.”

But Hate =/= proof of love. Wanting to slap someone or choke someone =/= proof of love.

I swear, this is like verbatim what an abuser would say. That their violence is proof of love. Those in an abusive relationship would confuse violence and conflict with love and passion.

[Bebe 17,094]

5 hours ago, teo said:

I'm sorry no. Everyone knows domestic violence is wrong. Nothing can possibly "normalize" it. No sane person will be like "Pink did whatever so why can't I". Of course there are concepts, visuals and aesthetics in every form of art like photography, music, film, books, ect that might not be everyone's cup of tea, some might even find them offensive, wrong, hurtful. If that's the case than you are free to choose not to watch/read it and avoid it. I think it's very dangerous that lately we as a society want to come for every single thing we might not like for some questionable reasons and ask to ban it instead of ignoring it. I'm not saying that the OP is doing this of course, but it's in the same spirit. And there are exceptions to what I am saying, but usually when something is truly "wrong" there is some sort of a general consensus among the public. 

Your claim that 'Everyone knows domestic violence is wrong" is clearly false as domestic violence is still a huge problem. I have never said it will encourage people to engage in domestic abuse, but such lyrics and videos certainly normalise relationships like that to the people living in such relationships. It only reinforces to the abuser that their behaviour is normal and only reinforces to those being abused that their situation is normal and that they can't expect and don't deserve any better.

I also find it ludicrous that you would say:

"I think it's very dangerous that lately we as a society want to come for every single thing we might not like for some questionable reasons and ask to ban it instead of ignoring it. I'm not saying that the OP is doing this of course, but it's in the same spirit."

How is what I am doing in any way similar to asking for a ban? That is ridiculous. When people spew this sort of crap it's just a way to prevent any conversation from happening. Nobody can criticise things they find questionable? I'm not allowed to criticise the way a music video portrays domestic abuse? How absurd.

It's quotes like that and " when something is truly "wrong" there is some sort of a general consensus among the public." that I find truly dangerous. The public is always shifting and changing in what it finds morally acceptable or unacceptable. It was only very recently that there was a general consensus that incarcerating people or institutionalising people for being gay is wrong.

I am not the one here who is trying to censor or stop dialogue, although I disagree with it's content, I'm completely fine with artists releasing music and videos like P!nk has. I just think I also have the right to criticise it.  It seems like you are the only one who is showing any disapproval at the thought of someone voicing a critique or starting a conversation. You are implying that conversations like the one I'm facilitating here shouldn't be happening because they are 'dangerous' and are in the same spirit of banning art. When you say " when something is truly"wrong" there is some sort of a general consensus among the public." you are telling people not to challenge the status quo and dismissing any such critiques as harmful.

I'm all for freedom of speech and freedom of ideas. I don't want anybody to stop anyone from making videos like these, I don't want anyone to stop me from critiquing videos like these and I don't want to stop anyone from critiquing my critiques of videos like these.

I'm all for conversation and dialogue. I hope this conversation will change opinions, I hope that if P!nk ever read this she would decide that her songs and videos don't truly reflect how she feels and make a change. That is not the same as trying to ban P!nk songs or stopping her from making music or videos like this.

[mucinex 4,260]

13 hours ago, Bebe said:

I can very easily separate music, movies and shows from reality  Nobody is saying it's reality? 

It's normalising domestic abuse when you write a song and create a video that romanticises violence in relationships or treats it as something flippant or humerous. If the genders of these videos were flipped and it was a male beating his wife while singing about how he could "cut her into pieces" and how it's something about her that makes him act like this it would be widely condemned. If it was a male singing about how it must be true love because he just wants to punch and choke  his wife it would be criticised.

Nobody is asking for P!nk's songs to be banned, so that Betty Boop comparison makes no sense.

The point isn't to end her career or even get her to apologise, it's to create conversation about how our culture depicts and normalises domestic abuse. Such criticism would also hopefully encourage a change in the way P!nk depicts love and relationships. There are people dying out there, like, actually dying from domestic abuse relationships. Messages like the ones sent out in P!nk's work are important whether you or she knows it

rap 'legend' eminem uses violence against women in his music all the time & he is still considered one of the greatest rappers so stop acting like it's a double standard, it happens on both spectrums. i do hope p!nk doesn't do the same type thing in the future, but i enjoy the songs where she does, it's a piece of art that is not a documentary, it's comical. and yes, even though it's very violent, i think even with harsh criticism a person who looks passed all that can enjoy it as much as the person who has not clue about it at all.

[Antoni 5,332]

Compared to how "normal" abuse actually is in real life, P!nk hasn't done anything to compare. I appreciate these references because they are honest, they depict things that really happen and don't sugarcoat it.

[teo 609]

13 hours ago, Bebe said:

Your claim that 'Everyone knows domestic violence is wrong" is clearly false as domestic violence is still a huge problem. I have never said it will encourage people to engage in domestic abuse, but such lyrics and videos certainly normalise relationships like that to the people living in such relationships. It only reinforces to the abuser that their behaviour is normal and only reinforces to those being abused that their situation is normal and that they can't expect and don't deserve any better.

I also find it ludicrous that you would say:

"I think it's very dangerous that lately we as a society want to come for every single thing we might not like for some questionable reasons and ask to ban it instead of ignoring it. I'm not saying that the OP is doing this of course, but it's in the same spirit."

How is what I am doing in any way similar to asking for a ban? That is ridiculous. When people spew this sort of crap it's just a way to prevent any conversation from happening. Nobody can criticise things they find questionable? I'm not allowed to criticise the way a music video portrays domestic abuse? How absurd.

It's quotes like that and " when something is truly "wrong" there is some sort of a general consensus among the public." that I find truly dangerous. The public is always shifting and changing in what it finds morally acceptable or unacceptable. It was only very recently that there was a general consensus that incarcerating people or institutionalising people for being gay is wrong.

I am not the one here who is trying to censor or stop dialogue, although I disagree with it's content, I'm completely fine with artists releasing music and videos like P!nk has. I just think I also have the right to criticise it.  It seems like you are the only one who is showing any disapproval at the thought of someone voicing a critique or starting a conversation. You are implying that conversations like the one I'm facilitating here shouldn't be happening because they are 'dangerous' and are in the same spirit of banning art. When you say " when something is truly"wrong" there is some sort of a general consensus among the public." you are telling people not to challenge the status quo and dismissing any such critiques as harmful.

I'm all for freedom of speech and freedom of ideas. I don't want anybody to stop anyone from making videos like these, I don't want anyone to stop me from critiquing videos like these and I don't want to stop anyone from critiquing my critiques of videos like these.

I'm all for conversation and dialogue. I hope this conversation will change opinions, I hope that if P!nk ever read this she would decide that her songs and videos don't truly reflect how she feels and make a change. That is not the same as trying to ban P!nk songs or stopping her from making music or videos like this.

I never said you shouldn't voice your opinion, I'm all for freedom of expression. What I think is "dangerous" is that current trend of trying censor things using some big issues as an excuse just for the sake of it. I even said that I don't think that this is the case with what you wrote.
Btw using gay rights as a token argument is very tacky and in my expirience people try to work it in when they can't prove their claims so they resort to ridiculous analogies. You are the one who started this conversation and since you can't really provide any proof of your very serious claim that Pink perpetuates domestic violence you decided to make your reply all about twisting my words in you favour. 
 I actually take the issue of domestic violence very very seriously because I was in an abusive relationship and also one of my best friends is in one right now and we've been trying to help her for more than a year with no luck to this day. This is why I don't like trivialising the issue, cause I know first hand it has nothing to do with choreographies, music videos and lyrics. Back in the days when domestic violence was a non issue there were still abusive and normal relationships. My guess is you made this thread cause you care about these issues too and that's great, but I still think you're wrong. And that's ok.

[Bebe 17,094]

15 hours ago, Matt Amor said:

rap 'legend' eminem uses violence against women in his music all the time & he is still considered one of the greatest rappers so stop acting like it's a double standard, it happens on both spectrums. i do hope p!nk doesn't do the same type thing in the future, but i enjoy the songs where she does, it's a piece of art that is not a documentary, it's comical. and yes, even though it's very violent, i think even with harsh criticism a person who looks passed all that can enjoy it as much as the person who has not clue about it at all.

Eminem is highly criticised for his music and videos that glamorise and normalise domestic abuse . I don't see the same amount of uproar over P!nk, I don't see the social media uproar or the critical news articles. I only see sociology articles and articles from Domestic Abuse organisations talk about it (With the exception of one Huffington Post article from Shelby Knox - a relatively well known feminist). I do, however, think that if the video was flipped and P!nk was a male breaking the legs and beating up a woman to prevent her from leave (and doing so in a parody, comical fashion) people would be primed already to recognise that as domestic violence and would take it more seriously. I think there would be a larger uproar.

Domestic abuse is often a very gendered issue. Most victims are women, most perpetrators men. As a result discussion around domestic abuse has often been centered around female survivors. While this is completely fair, studies show time and time again that people react to domestic abuse towards men differently. It's funny that P!nk breaks his legs and beats him up, but it wouldn't be seen as funny in the slightest if the roles where reversed.

Nobody is saying this isn't art or that it isn't a documentary. Have you stopped to really think about what's funny in her first video though? Like really? I mean don't you find it even a little bit ****ed up that this man being beaten up and severely injured by his partner is being treated as something funny? I mean this is exactly what I mean when I say P!nk is contributing to a culture that normalises domestic violence.  You say you can look past it and enjoy it but that's missing the point and is just really disappointing imo. 

 

7 hours ago, teo said:

I never said you shouldn't voice your opinion, I'm all for freedom of expression. What I think is "dangerous" is that current trend of trying censor things using some big issues as an excuse just for the sake of it. I even said that I don't think that this is the case with what you wrote.
Btw using gay rights as a token argument is very tacky and in my expirience people try to work it in when they can't prove their claims so they resort to ridiculous analogies. You are the one who started this conversation and since you can't really provide any proof of your very serious claim that Pink perpetuates domestic violence you decided to make your reply all about twisting my words in you favour. 
 I actually take the issue of domestic violence very very seriously because I was in an abusive relationship and also one of my best friends is in one right now and we've been trying to help her for more than a year with no luck to this day. This is why I don't like trivialising the issue, cause I know first hand it has nothing to do with choreographies, music videos and lyrics. Back in the days when domestic violence was a non issue there were still abusive and normal relationships. My guess is you made this thread cause you care about these issues too and that's great, but I still think you're wrong. And that's ok.

You said very clearly that my criticism was "in the same spirit" as banning and trying to censor things.

I don't see how gay rights is a ridiculous analogy at all. Your statement that "when something is truly "wrong" there is some sort of a general consensus among the public"  is what seems ridiculous to me. I used the example of gay rights because it's one of the most recent examples of a shift in what the public believes is wrong/right but you can apply it to almost every moral issue you can think of. Just because there isn't a general consensus that something is wrong doesn't mean it's right  Every decade the public has different values, what everyone thought was okay 10, 20, 30 years ago is not okay now because we know better. To say, just because there isn't a general consensus that something is wrong, that there must be nothing wrong with it is deepy ignorant.

"you can't really provide any proof of your very serious claim that Pink perpetuates domestic violence you decided to make your reply all about twisting my words in you favour. " That's a load of ass though, all I've done in this thread is provide evidence that P!nk is normalising and glamorising domestic abuse.

This might seem trivial to you but, it's really not  in the bigger picture P!nk is one of many figures that contribute to the normalisation and glamorisation of domestic abuse.