Just Watched Lemonade and I Don't Think...

[Didymus 32,908]

@StrawberryBlond

I can only say I'd like to see you be equally critical about the person this forum is actually about: Lady Gaga. Most of the remarks you've made are applicable to her, in an equal if not greater degree, yet I never see them in that context, sadly.

[Boyboi12 2,125]

On May 28, 2016 at 8:48 AM, Pop said:

whoever says Lemonade is bad is either lying or didn't even take time to watch it. It's a masterpiece

I think you're using the word masterpiece lightly 

[StrawberryBlond 13,445]

34 minutes ago, Didymus said:

@StrawberryBlond

I can only say I'd like to see you be equally critical about the person this forum is actually about: Lady Gaga. Most of the remarks you've made are applicable to her, in an equal if not greater degree, yet I never see them in that context, sadly.

I am critical towards Gaga. But I think the critiques of her are different. I wouldn't be a fan of her if she had Beyonce's flaws. You've just not seen the critique because I've said it before, there's no appropriate topic available or because everyone's a bit critique-phobic right now considering that we're trying to boost Gaga up for a comeback. But honestly, one of the criitiques that at least match is this fascination with wanting to create a visual album. I'd rather she focused all her energy on the music and getting it out to us sooner. Music videos are nice but imagination exists for a reason. I hope this isn't the reason why she's taking so long with this album. But at least I don't have to be concerned about the music video making her songs better because they're already fine without them, although I think the Telephone video helps raise the quality of the very mediocre song highly. Videos like these are the epitome of distraction techniques to cover a below-par song. Beyonce has let it flow through her entire work now, unfortunately.

[Didymus 32,908]

1 minute ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I am critical towards Gaga. But I think the critiques of her are different. I wouldn't be a fan of her if she had Beyonce's flaws. You've just not seen the critique because I've said it before, there's no appropriate topic available or because everyone's a bit critique-phobic right now considering that we're trying to boost Gaga up for a comeback. But honestly, one of the criitiques that at least match is this fascination with wanting to create a visual album. I'd rather she focused all her energy on the music and getting it out to us sooner. Music videos are nice but imagination exists for a reason. I hope this isn't the reason why she's taking so long with this album. But at least I don't have to be concerned about the music video making her songs better because they're already fine without them, although I think the Telephone video helps raise the quality of the very mediocre song highly. Videos like these are the epitome of distraction techniques to cover a below-par song. Beyonce has let it flow through her entire work now, unfortunately.

Well, I can agree with the critique-phobia I'm not called a Gaga hater for nothing Though I obviously don't deserve it. I spend more time thinking about her work than the self-proclaimed stans here.

Anyway.

I agree about the visual argument to an extent, 'cause I think most of Beyoncé's singles are strong enough on their own but that's up to taste for sure. In fact I even thought the Beyoncé video's were a distraction from the power of the music That album was strong enough to stand on its own for me, the vids felt like a waste of money and, indeed, I didn't feel like the vids were as imaginative as the songs' productions which left me feeling like I was better off ignoring the vids and experiencing the songs my way where visual imagination was concerned.

I don't think Beyoncé has done the distraction thing more than any other artist though. Far less than the average pop star imo. And on Lemonade I think the film merges musical and visual imagination perfectly, without ruining the album experience as a solitary experience. Though I'm sure you'll disagree with that. Which is ok.

In the end I just feel, as you probably know, that you go very far to discredit Beyoncé when you can easily pull the same trick on every other pop star in the game. Gaga is not as involved in her work as most non-pop artists either, and even compared to some other pop artists (Grimes being the obvious example), yet people give her free passes all the time too, and you do as well. Beyoncé works pretty much the same as Gaga when the full package is considered. It's true that Gaga has more songwriting capability but then again, she rarely uses it to an admirable extent, the obvious example being that she's still relying a lot on co-writers and is still accepting full instrumentals from other producers, so in reality that really doesn't matter much imo.

[StrawberryBlond 13,445]

3 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Well, I can agree with the critique-phobia I'm not called a Gaga hater for nothing Though I obviously don't deserve it. I spend more time thinking about her work than the self-proclaimed stans here.

Anyway.

I agree about the visual argument to an extent, 'cause I think most of Beyoncé's singles are strong enough on their own but that's up to taste for sure. In fact I even thought the Beyoncé video's were a distraction from the power of the music That album was strong enough to stand on its own for me, the vids felt like a waste of money and, indeed, I didn't feel like the vids were as imaginative as the songs' productions which left me feeling like I was better off ignoring the vids and experiencing the songs my way where visual imagination was concerned.

I don't think Beyoncé has done the distraction thing more than any other artist though. Far less than the average pop star imo. And on Lemonade I think the film merges musical and visual imagination perfectly, without ruining the album experience as a solitary experience. Though I'm sure you'll disagree with that. Which is ok.

In the end I just feel, as you probably know, that you go very far to discredit Beyoncé when you can easily pull the same trick on every other pop star in the game. Gaga is not as involved in her work as most non-pop artists either, and even compared to some other pop artists (Grimes being the obvious example), yet people give her free passes all the time too, and you do as well. Beyoncé works pretty much the same as Gaga when the full package is considered. It's true that Gaga has more songwriting capability but then again, she rarely uses it to an admirable extent, the obvious example being that she's still relying a lot on co-writers and is still accepting full instrumentals from other producers, so in reality that really doesn't matter much imo.

Tell me about it. I could just throw up when considering all the "no online negativity" thing so many people here seem focused on, especially when it comes to Gaga. If we don't critique, we don't grow, we don't get better. It doesn't make you a horrible person because you don't think the sun shines out of everyone's backside. it makes you realistic.

I have to say, I really agree with you on the last album's videos. They were neither here nor there for me. Very boring and uneventful, just like the majority of her videos since day one. I don't know why she thought they were so good, they needed to be put out into the world. When I think of someone who needs to make a visual album, Beyonce would be right down near the bottom. And when I do hear a good Beyonce song, I've never needed a visual for it. One of the big exceptions to this was maybe Dance For You. That has to be one of her best videos ever, the cinematography is outstanding, the aura it gives off, everything enhances an already brilliant song. And to see her singing I Was Here at the UN with those astonishing backdrops provided an other-worldly air to an already brilliant song and made me want to cry (I know you don't like that one, though). But most of the time, what I imagine in my head is always better than what she actually delivers.

True, Beyonce has always relied on pure vocal talent more than anything, along with dancing. So, she's never really had to distract. But lately, I really feel like she has. i think she may be feeling insecure about getting older (she is old by popstar standards) and being a wife and mother. It's like she worries she'll be forgotten about now she's settled and fears that young stars like Rihanna will keep all the attention. So, she's got raunchier and started swearing in her songs and been more revealing about her personal life and is making huge album statements that make the world take notice. It all seems to be a big distraction for her insecurities and fear of failure. She got shook after 4 and has been worried that she might be losing her touch ever since, so she's determined to keep the public's interest by any means necessary. Just my interpretation.

I will criticise every other artist who uses this trick, it's not just Beyonce. I've been talking about this trick concerning every talentless pop puppet in existence before now because they're the ones who started it. Now even the talented ones are growing insecure and using it too. I think, on the contrary, Gaga is more control than people give her credit for. She's been granted a lot more than most due to being multi talented and proving she can crank out hits. We don't know the full extent of her involvement but we've seen how much freedom she is allowed.

I like it so much more when we talk like this. When you put me on your level and aren't being confrontational. It's so much easier to talk to you now. Why can't we always talk do this?

[Emigrante 9,350]

On 28.05.2016 at 3:35 PM, DemeLarell said:

I knew race was gonna show up eventually 

the race argument came up first from counter speaker. 

[Emigrante 9,350]

On 28.05.2016 at 6:00 PM, Daredevil said:

Girl, I've been a fan since her first the Dome show in 2008. I know what she did for the LGBT community, but I wasn't talking about that. Let's not make everything about us. LEMONADE is an album about the unapologetic black woman, who stands up for herself even though "she's the most disrespected person in America". That's what I mean with "Gaga could never make such a statement", because she simply can't. But it's okay, there are other issues.

What do you mean by that. Beyonce is like Mother Oxygen of America. 

[DemeLarell 931]

24 minutes ago, Emigrante said:

the race argument came up first from counter speaker. 

Like i said before. No shade. No malicious intent. It was just a comment. Lol.

[Didymus 32,908]

22 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

When I think of someone who needs to make a visual album, Beyonce would be right down near the bottom. And when I do hear a good Beyonce song, I've never needed a visual for it. [...] most of the time, what I imagine in my head is always better than what she actually delivers.

Actually, I find myself agreeing with this, even though I enjoy a lot of her video's. Especially during Sasha Fierce and 4 I found myself wishing she just didn't make them - I only really appreciated Single Ladies, Sweet Dreams and Why Don't You Love Me from both era's and as you'll notice there's none of 4 there Then again, like I said, I can easily say the same for 90% of other pop vids.

Lemonade is a step up though. Sure, there are some terrible bits (Sandcastles is a joke) but also easily some of the best visual ideas of her entire videography. I get that the length might scare people off and definitely doesn't help her from a commercial pov, but I guess that's why I appreciate it even more.

What I don't appreciate, however, is the "Jay cheated on me" buzz that's been created. The album and the short film were strong enough, probably a lot stronger, without that bs. So actually I'll use your distraction argument with thàt. It's really depressing that she felt she needed a lame controversy like that (undermining the themes in the album/film) to be talked about, which imo wasn't the case. Which leads me to this comment:

32 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

It's like she worries she'll be forgotten about now she's settled and fears that young stars like Rihanna will keep all the attention. So, she's got raunchier and started swearing in her songs and been more revealing about her personal life and is making huge album statements that make the world take notice. It all seems to be a big distraction for her insecurities and fear of failure. She got shook after 4 and has been worried that she might be losing her touch ever since, so she's determined to keep the public's interest by any means necessary. Just my interpretation.

I'm not sure if that's what's going on, but I don't disagree with it either. At the end of the day, I'm just happy she's actually delivering quality material instead of using a lame controversy like the cheating thing to disguise the fact that her products are terrible. You'll probably disagree with that because you do think the products are subpar, but again, that's up to taste.

Imo though it would be lame to deny that a lot of work is creeping into her projects and she is involved in a significant degree, as she has been. I do feel like you're downplaying it, especially when it seems you're singling her out as exceptionally uninvolved. As Sia revealed about the Beyoncé writing camp sessions, Beyoncé is extremely involved in what we eventually get to hear and see, to every little detail. That's admirable even when she's relying on a team of creative individuals. It's still her vision we're seeing, expressed through the co-operation of a whole team to be sure, but still unique that way.

Maybe if I may guess, I think you might be a bit harsh on her in these comments because you feel like there's a disproportionate thing going on when it comes to the praise she's been getting recently. I do agree it's delusional to praise solely Beyoncé for anything about her career, but I fear that's just how pop fanbases roll. I'm sure there are still Little Monsters around who feel compelled to praise Gaga for the designer dress she's wearing, just like Gaga haters feel compelled to call her out for copying other designer dresses instead of the designer/stylist.

39 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

I like it so much more when we talk like this. When you put me on your level and aren't being confrontational. It's so much easier to talk to you now. Why can't we always talk do this?

I am enjoying it actually We're getting arguments across a lot more fluently now and the conversation is moving along finally, even if we don't agree

Let's try to keep that going then

[Versace 7,486]

53 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Tell me about it. I could just throw up when considering all the "no online negativity" thing so many people here seem focused on, especially when it comes to Gaga. If we don't critique, we don't grow, we don't get better. It doesn't make you a horrible person because you don't think the sun shines out of everyone's backside. it makes you realistic.

I have to say, I really agree with you on the last album's videos. They were neither here nor there for me. Very boring and uneventful, just like the majority of her videos since day one. I don't know why she thought they were so good, they needed to be put out into the world. When I think of someone who needs to make a visual album, Beyonce would be right down near the bottom. And when I do hear a good Beyonce song, I've never needed a visual for it. One of the big exceptions to this was maybe Dance For You. That has to be one of her best videos ever, the cinematography is outstanding, the aura it gives off, everything enhances an already brilliant song. And to see her singing I Was Here at the UN with those astonishing backdrops provided an other-worldly air to an already brilliant song and made me want to cry (I know you don't like that one, though). But most of the time, what I imagine in my head is always better than what she actually delivers.

True, Beyonce has always relied on pure vocal talent more than anything, along with dancing. So, she's never really had to distract. But lately, I really feel like she has. i think she may be feeling insecure about getting older (she is old by popstar standards) and being a wife and mother. It's like she worries she'll be forgotten about now she's settled and fears that young stars like Rihanna will keep all the attention. So, she's got raunchier and started swearing in her songs and been more revealing about her personal life and is making huge album statements that make the world take notice. It all seems to be a big distraction for her insecurities and fear of failure. She got shook after 4 and has been worried that she might be losing her touch ever since, so she's determined to keep the public's interest by any means necessary. Just my interpretation.

I will criticise every other artist who uses this trick, it's not just Beyonce. I've been talking about this trick concerning every talentless pop puppet in existence before now because they're the ones who started it. Now even the talented ones are growing insecure and using it too. I think, on the contrary, Gaga is more control than people give her credit for. She's been granted a lot more than most due to being multi talented and proving she can crank out hits. We don't know the full extent of her involvement but we've seen how much freedom she is allowed.

I like it so much more when we talk like this. When you put me on your level and aren't being confrontational. It's so much easier to talk to you now. Why can't we always talk do this?

 

So the good sis Didymus has given you trouble before, not surprised 

[Chromatislaps 34,589]

On 28-5-2016 at 2:39 PM, Cheap thrills said:

 Lemonade

We'll Have to see about that AOTY

AOTY  will probably go to Blackstar by David Bowie, that album was such a multilayered experience, and it got an extra dimension/context when he died.  

[Dangerous Man 9,245]

Why would they give the AOTY to someone who is dead already? I hate it when people give honor to artist only on their death, they're kind of disrespectful. So you need to die first before getting recognition? Pathetic. I respect Bowie but what this ppl are doing to dead ones isn't cute at all.

The award will lost its meaning for they're only giving it because of artist's death and not because of album quality and success. 

[StrawberryBlond 13,445]

22 hours ago, Didymus said:

Actually, I find myself agreeing with this, even though I enjoy a lot of her video's. Especially during Sasha Fierce and 4 I found myself wishing she just didn't make them - I only really appreciated Single Ladies, Sweet Dreams and Why Don't You Love Me from both era's and as you'll notice there's none of 4 there Then again, like I said, I can easily say the same for 90% of other pop vids.

Lemonade is a step up though. Sure, there are some terrible bits (Sandcastles is a joke) but also easily some of the best visual ideas of her entire videography. I get that the length might scare people off and definitely doesn't help her from a commercial pov, but I guess that's why I appreciate it even more.

What I don't appreciate, however, is the "Jay cheated on me" buzz that's been created. The album and the short film were strong enough, probably a lot stronger, without that bs. So actually I'll use your distraction argument with thàt. It's really depressing that she felt she needed a lame controversy like that (undermining the themes in the album/film) to be talked about, which imo wasn't the case. Which leads me to this comment:

I'm not sure if that's what's going on, but I don't disagree with it either. At the end of the day, I'm just happy she's actually delivering quality material instead of using a lame controversy like the cheating thing to disguise the fact that her products are terrible. You'll probably disagree with that because you do think the products are subpar, but again, that's up to taste.

Imo though it would be lame to deny that a lot of work is creeping into her projects and she is involved in a significant degree, as she has been. I do feel like you're downplaying it, especially when it seems you're singling her out as exceptionally uninvolved. As Sia revealed about the Beyoncé writing camp sessions, Beyoncé is extremely involved in what we eventually get to hear and see, to every little detail. That's admirable even when she's relying on a team of creative individuals. It's still her vision we're seeing, expressed through the co-operation of a whole team to be sure, but still unique that way.

Maybe if I may guess, I think you might be a bit harsh on her in these comments because you feel like there's a disproportionate thing going on when it comes to the praise she's been getting recently. I do agree it's delusional to praise solely Beyoncé for anything about her career, but I fear that's just how pop fanbases roll. I'm sure there are still Little Monsters around who feel compelled to praise Gaga for the designer dress she's wearing, just like Gaga haters feel compelled to call her out for copying other designer dresses instead of the designer/stylist.

I am enjoying it actually We're getting arguments across a lot more fluently now and the conversation is moving along finally, even if we don't agree

Let's try to keep that going then

Yeah, most of her videos just consist of her dancing and not much else. Very little storyline or none at all. She put all the focus and effort into the dancing but not the rest. I also got so bored of the theme she started exhibiting from around Sasha Fierce and onwards of herself and 2 girls behind her dancing (Single Ladies, Diva, Sweet Dreams, Ego). Was it supposed to remind us of DC or what? But it got so predictable and we knew exactly what we were going to get when those 2 girls came on - nothing but a dance video. She did a re-hash of the same idea with more backing dancers/singers for Dance For You and Love On Top (the latter has to be the laziest video in her videography and I don't have a clue why it has so many views). Then you factor in her lovey dovey videos for Broken Hearted Girl, Halo and Best Thing I Never Had that all looked the same with lots of white, soft focus, smiling and not much else. At least she did a bit more in her early days with the likes of Crazy In Love, Naughty Girl, Deja Vu, Ring The Alarm, etc. They weren't exactly God's gift to videos either but at least they were a bit more entertaining. But the stuff she made in the years after that? What happened to the effort? As I'm someone who'd rather a good storyline over a dance number, a lot of her stuff does nothing for me. This is again what I'm talking about when I say distraction helps sell. By focusing on dancing, it disguises the fact that she has no creativity for anything else. Even her dancing was predictable and we knew exactly what we were going to get. People were so focused on how good a dancer she was that they never actually mentioned if the rest of the video was any good. For a singer, she sure focused on dancing a lot. I like how Gaga lets the dancing take second place in her videos - it's there and it's important to her, but it never overshadows the story or is submitted to take the place of a story. Because first and foremost, she's a singer/songwriter who wants to tell a story, and that's what the majority of her video will focus on. You're right, 90% of pop videos do suffer from boredom but that's an overall trend right now, across all genres but for popstars, especially, it's very tiring to see them have videos that are just "look how hot I am" *cough*Ariana*cough*. I hope we overcome it soon.

Yes, I do agree that the Lemonade videos were a step up from the Beyonce ones, especially as far as emotion and storytelling goes and there was more of a real overall vision, so props for that. I just think that making it all one big long movie was a mistake. I mean, she waited a year to put her last album's videos on Vevo and 9 out of 16 (including short interludes) of them have less than 20 million views because of it. This is why I'm surprised she's not putting the whole movie out there by now. To a fan, they might think the public are taking it in. They're not. They're really not. The views and likes of her self-titled albums videos are testament to that. If the public weren't all that interested in returning to watch them a year later, what does that say about how well they've been remembered?

What do you mean by you didn't like the infedelity buzz? Do you mean you think it was exaggerated or engineered? I've got theories about that but honestly, I think it did happen. But maybe how they recovered from it is a big exaggerated. If Jay was a part of it, they can't be on that bad terms, even if they just saw it as a money-spinner. I'm of the opposite opinion that it made her album stronger, actually. This was the realest she'd ever been. Up until her last album, she had kept so quiet about her relationship and always made it out to be lovey dovey perfect or just wrote break up songs to give the public what they want. But this time, she went for the jugular, accusing Jay of all sorts and even insulting him, saying he had a god complex. I have to give her props for finally dropping all the pretence and just saying exactly what was on her mind, even if it made her look angry or unlikeable. Whatever I think of the album, I can't deny that was a powerful artistic statement to make. Because I think the cheating thing was the biggest theme of the album, why would you think it undermined the other theme (race?) when it's clear the biggest theme of all is infidelity? I just wish she'd made it all about that from beginning to end. The race stuff, while powerful, would have been better suited on an political themed album, not as part of a body of work about tension in a marriage. That's what broke the album at the end for me - she should have picked one theme and seen it out until the end.

None of us can say exactly what's going on in her head, but she wouldn't be the first female singer to fear getting old, losing sales and being forgotten about (Madonna and Mariah suffered from this too). It's a shame how we place so much importance on a woman's age in music when men can continue to slay well into their 30's and 40's without comment and they'll even be called better with age. But we can't deny it does affect women. This is why so many of them get a premature midlife crisis around the age of 30-35 and start trying to make their music younger, more relevant, be more controversial. It was a shock to see Beyonce, who used to never speak about her private life, open up so explictly about marriage problems in her last two albums and have her never swear in her lyrics to throwing around f words with no qualms. So, naturally, I wonder, what's brought this on? What's with the change of heart and change of image? And all I can conclude is that she feels insecure about a lot of things, most obviously, dropping in success. 4's under-performance scared her so much that she basically threw the entire idea of singles out the window because no one can call her singles flops if she never releases them in the first place. But what she hadn't counted on was that people like me would now start accusing of no longer making memorable music anymore because she doesn't put out proper singles for the public's consumption, making her more liable to be glossed over if she's not on the radio. She doesn't even promote herself much now. You could count her UK promo performances since 2009 on one hand. I really think it's doing nothing for her relevancy to distance herself and make her work exclusive.

The reason why I think she must have minimal involvement is that she cranked out this album very fast, all things considered. To compose 12 tracks and film 12 music videos (plus lots of extras in a full-on movie) takes a hell of a lot of time when you're the only one creating it. The amount of effort it takes to create just one music video is immense. Coming up with a concept, putting it through to your label, hiring staff, hiring backing singers/dancers/extras, rehearsing routines and filming, editing...it takes up so much time. To do all that 12 times over in just 28 months with yourself as the biggest creator is pretty unattainable. And it had obviously been ready for some time and exactly when she started work on it is unknown but there is no way she started immediately after releasing the last one. That means there must have been one hell of a team behind her working day and night and she just oversaw it all and tweaked it here and there. If she did most of it herself, it would have taken a lot longer. Gaga herself once said the only reason her album is taking so long is because she really does it all herself. You can't just crank out a visual album like that. The length of time between 4 and Beyonce was very small considering all that work that had to be done and considering she'd just had Blue. I just have a hard time believing she's massively involved when all this is taken into account. Despite what her fans think, she isn't some supernatural goddess who never tires. No one is.

Yes, a big part of my beef is not so much with Beyonce herself but the way the public respond to her. The over-praise, the over-valuing, the idea that everything she puts out is her own creation, when in reality, she has copied from so many artists countless times (or her team have). Watching Lemonade, I can't help but see so many parallels to Lana's Tropico movie, especially the dramatic, artistic monologues. You only need to listen to Beyonce in interview to know she couldn't make up such poetic musing if her life depended on it. That was totally fed to her by someone else. Lana actually made Tropico herself, it was truly her creation and it was just her and 6 other people who actually made the movie (not including cast of characters and hair and make up teams). She wrote the film and composed the music. The only other people involved in the actual making of it was the director, producer, production supervisor, cinematographer, editor and telecinator (don't know what the official term is for that). The credits are so short because it's mostly just all her. And this beautiful piece of art created by her, that inspired other artists only has 6.8 million views in 2.5 years and mixed critical reviews. Beyonce does a concept that isn't even original and involves a huge team behind her creating this vision, gets a lot more views and critical acclaim. When I see this kind of thing, I think it's amazing how money talks and the media decide who they want you to like while the true artists who are more alternative get trodden on. It's nothing to do with being a pop fan, it's just having a love for music in general and wanting to see true artistic talent break through and be praised.

See? We can get along better if we remain calm and don't resort to mudslinging arguments. It is possible to get along even if we don't agree and to be honest, when someone nice presents me with a viewpoint I don't agree with, I even feel ever so slightly guilty for not agreeing and try to find the good in their argument more. Being civil with one another can get our arguments listened to and processed so much better. I hope we can continue with this pattern.

[holy scheisse 20,667]

Messy ass posts

 

bekieve it or not I've yet to watch the film 

but I love the album. The music is excellently diverse yet cohesive

 

[politicqxs 358]

Formation