Turkish reporters get two years in prison for blasphemy

[Luiz 4,253]

Two journalists in Turkey have been sentenced to two years in jail for "insulting religious values" after they reprinted a controversial cover from the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo above their columns.

An Istanbul court on Thursday sentenced Ceyda Karan and Hikmet Cetinkaya to two years behind bars for illustrating their columns with a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad published by French satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo.

"The two journalists were sentenced to two years each in jail," said Bulent Utku, lawyer for Hikmet Cetinkaya and Ceyda Karan.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/04/turkish-reporters-years-prison-blasphemy-160428141114718.html

[Didymus 34,380]

Sad. Islamic culture used to be so tolerant.

I feel like if the people living there actually knew that, they'd rise up to this kind of bs. And I do believe it's important people living in the West also know how these countries degraded into intolerance. It's interesting and, as usual, our governments had an important role to play.

[VANTABLACK 7,793]

5 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Sad. Islamic culture used to be so tolerant.

is that an oxymoron 

When has Islamic culture ever been tolerant or progressive ?

When it comes to women's  rights, gays, freedom of speech.

[GANGIE 5,430]

8 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Sad. Islamic culture used to be so tolerant.

I feel like if the people living there actually knew that, they'd rise up to this kind of bs. And I do believe it's important people living in the West also know how these countries degraded into intolerance. It's interesting and, as usual, our governments had an important role to play.

Yeah, I agree. It's sad that now more and more people are getting intolerant. I'm not one of them but I live in the Europe and I'm really affraid of the islamic immigrants. Most of them are very agressive and don't want to respect our culture. I don't wanna talk about terrorists coz' we all know what has happened in Paris and Belgium. These days are very difficult for all of us at some point. 

[Didymus 34,380]

15 minutes ago, BrownLikePepsi said:

is that an oxymoron 

When has Islamic culture ever been tolerant ?

When it comes to women's  rights, gays, freedom of speech

Well, maybe you should do some studying instead of assuming stuff.

Interesting historical fact: European missionaries and politicians used the tolerance towards male same-sex conduct in Islamic countries as a way to justify the invasion of them.

Islamic culture has always had a homosexual cultural current that is widely attested in art (esp. poetry), sociological studies, and anthropological studies. There are written recordings of jokes of the 13th c. preserved that prove what is now treated as an undeniable fact among academics: homosexual conduct was a completely normal and widespread phenomenon in Near Eastern culture, as it was in nearly every culture but the European one from the Late Middle Ages onwards when the dynamic of homophobia was constructed. All our concepts about sexuality (incl. "heterosexuality" which is more and more uncovered as a sociocultural myth unrooted in scientific facts), including the ones we imported to the Near East, are rooted in that period. Homosexuals in European countries would only be able to dream about Islamic culture in those times.

It is exactly because of it that scholars have had to re-examine the idea that Islamic regulations were so important after all in a political context, since punishments against homosexuality (and blasphemy) were almost never carried out, for various interesting reasons. It's far more complicated than it seems and it's sad that this isn't streaming through to mainstream consciousness, including among Muslims who simply are alienated from their own history. The very simple fact is that during the Middle Ages, Islamic countries were far more "forward-thinking" in terms of science, philosophy, art, tolerance towards all sorts of minorities, tolerance in terms of sexual conduct,... than European ones, and that religious regulations were 1000x less strict than they are now.

Islamic culture doesn't have an ideal record of women's rights but you can't forget that the advent of Islam marked a huge progress when it came to them in the area where it originated, especially in contexts of marriage. And, in any case, women's rights decreased immensely after colonialist expansion, mainly due to the codification of Qur'anic law which Western rules demanded to make governing in those countries more amenable to the ideal of the Western state. This is also part of the question of why religious intolerance grew in nearly every category. So no, the answer is far more political than religious. There is no reason to assume that Islamic culture equals intolerance. History proves otherwise, and our societies actually prove to be the backward ones.

So no, it's not that simple.

[uo111 5,282]

19 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Sad. Islamic culture used to be so tolerant.

I feel like if the people living there actually knew that, they'd rise up to this kind of bs. And I do believe it's important people living in the West also know how these countries degraded into intolerance. It's interesting and, as usual, our governments had an important role to play.

Our ancestors' governments.

And we don't even like our ancestors for the most part. Regardless, the actions of the past can explain the actions of the present but they do not excuse them.

[VANTABLACK 7,793]

17 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Well, maybe you should do some studying instead of assuming stuff.

Interesting historical fact: European missionaries and politicans used the tolerance towards gays in Islamic countries as a way to justify the invasion of them.

Islamic culture has always had a homosexual cultural current that is widely attested in art, sociological studies, and anthropological studies. There are written recordings of jokes of the 13th c. preserved that prove what is now treated as an undeniable fact among academics: homosexual conduct was a completely normal and widespread phenomenon.

It is exactly because of it that scholars have had to re-examine the idea that Islamic regulations were so important after all in a political context, since punishments against homosexuality (and blasphemy) were almost never carried out, for various interesting reasons. It's far more complicated than it seems and it's sad that this isn't streaming through to mainstream consciousness, including among Muslims who simply are alienated from their own history.

Islamic culture doesn't have an ideal record of women's rights but you can't forget that the advent of Islam marked a huge progress when it came to them, especially in contexts of marriage. And, in any case, women's rights decreased immensely after colonialist expansion, mainly due to the codification of Qur'anic law which Western rules demanded to make governing in those countries more amenable to the ideal of the Western state.

So no, it's not that simple.

This is what I love about ggd, smart responses , sorry I kind of wanted to aggravate u because I know I would get a thorough response from u, I know u have a good reputation here on ggd. And I agree European colonization had a significant impact on historical practices and ideas at the time like  homosexuality/sexuality that were considered the norm and part of the culture back then . personally coming from an Indian background , I know for a fact when the Mughal and British empires colonized/invaded India ,much of the ancient history was erased (sculptures and art depicting sexual fluidity)and sort of converted  the views and mind sets  of those civilizations which thus became more intolerant oVer time  .homosexulaty was very prevelant ancient India( ex Kama sutra ), Ancient Greece, and I think Egypt . Just something about the ideologies of the 3 abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism , Islam) sort of changed that ancient culture in a way , It's not simple you are right but I don't think it's one groups fault or problem . It's a collective issue that has been pushed around for centuries and millenniums . 

Idk if this makes sense , wish I was articulate as you I'm an atheist I have a hard time expressing my religious views 

[Didymus 34,380]

13 minutes ago, uo111 said:

Our ancestors' governments.

And we don't even like our ancestors for the most part. Regardless, the actions of the past can explain the actions of the present but they do not excuse them.

Well, I never said they excused them. But then again, I don't find it necessary to say that because judging facts emotionally is just a waste of time. Things happen because forces in the past stimulated them to happen, and it ends there for me. Whether it's good or bad, it's happening, and it's happening for a reason, and maybe we can aid the situation by remembering why.

You don't think it's valuable to educate people, Muslims most of all, about their own/ancestors' culture? That homosexual conduct was actually demonized in Europe and not in Islamic countries? That the Qur'anic portions about homosexuality are not at all straightforward and there is even a notorious passage that seems to imply homo-romanticism? That the mere idea of a difference beween "straight" and "gay" people is an idea imported from European colonialists? That before Western colonialist intervention in Islamic societies and their transformation into grotesque states there was more freedom and tolerance than there is now? That the codifying of the Qur'an into systematic law (which prompted rulers to adopt incredibly harsh punishments against "blasphemers", to stay somewhat on topic) is a Western idea?

I'd like them to know that very much. And I'd like everyone to know that. If there is one way in which we can hope to re-establish some peace in those countries, it's by reminding them of the value of their own history. So I'm quite amused you read my entire statement as me wanting to excuse Islamic countries for their actions, when, really, I believe a recovery of factual historical memory might be an important part of the solution.

[Didymus 34,380]

27 minutes ago, BrownLikePepsi said:

This is what I love about ggd, smart responses , sorry I kind of wanted to aggravate u because I know I would get a thorough response from u, I know u have a good reputation here on ggd.

You conniving little evil genius I love it

Thanks for reading it with interest and the compliment

27 minutes ago, BrownLikePepsi said:

And I agree European colonization had a significant impact on historical practices and ideas at the time like  homosexuality/sexuality that were considered the norm and part of the culture back then . personally coming from an Indian background , I know for a fact when the Mughal and British empires colonized/invaded India ,much of the ancient history was erased (sculptures and art depicting sexual fluidity)and sort of converted  the views and mind sets  of those civilizations which thus became more intolerant oVer time  .homosexulaty was very prevelant ancient India( ex Kama sutra ), Ancient Greece, and I think Egypt . Just something about the ideologies of the 3 abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism , Islam) sort of changed that ancient culture in a way , It's not simple you are right but I don't think it's one groups fault or problem . It's a collective issue that has been pushed around for centuries and millenniums . 

Well, ambisexuality is the term academics are using more and more now because concepts of hetero- and homosexuality are pretty much unique (and very recent) for Western sentimentalities. Ambisexuality is like a corrected word for bisexuality because the latter is also a bit of a cultural myth - ambisexuality, term-wise, points to the idea that people are attracted to different sexes under different circumstances, but almost never in an exclusive way (that includes being attracted to both sexes equally, which probably doesn't even exist).

Same-sex behavior anyway is found to be present in nearly every single society there are data of. It's a growing field of studies, mainly because you couldn't even study it ('cause it was a major taboo to not run along with psychologists and sociologists who called it an immoral deviance to normativity in both the psyche and society) until the 1970's. Very interesting. Revolutionary potential for sure, since it calls into question the idea we all still grow up: men are attracted to women and vice versa because they have to procreate. This has been proven to be a fantasy, with no scientific support over and over again, but it's a stain that's hard to wash out of our culture. Which is significant, since that argument is basically the root of homophobia: same-sex inclinations become unnatural that way, even though ambisexuality is widely observed in animals of higher evolutionary degrees and has been proven time and time again to have evolutionary value.

But yes, obviously it's too simplistic to blame "Western society", I just used it to be dramatic and more effective Definitely an interesting subject, I'm happy I can talk about it here, since it concerns pretty much all of us and I do believe it can have revolutionary political potential 

[uo111 5,282]

18 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Well, I never said they excused them. But then again, I don't find it necessary to say that because judging facts emotionally is just a waste of time. Things happen because forces in the past stimulated them to happen, and it ends there for me. Whether it's good or bad, it's happening, and it's happening for a reason, and maybe we can aid the situation by remembering why.

You don't think it's valuable to educate people, Muslims most of all, about their own/ancestors' culture? That homosexual conduct was actually demonized in Europe and not in Islamic countries? That the Qur'anic portions about homosexuality are not at all straightforward and there is even a notorious passage that seems to imply homo-romanticism? That the mere idea of a difference beween "straight" and "gay" people is an idea imported from European colonialists? That before Western colonialist intervention in Islamic societies and their transformation into grotesque states there was more freedom and tolerance than there is now? That the codifying of the Qur'an into systematic law (which prompted rulers to adopt incredibly harsh punishments against "blasphemers", to stay somewhat on topic) is a Western idea?

I'd like them to know that very much. And I'd like everyone to know that. If there is one way in which we can hope to re-establish some peace in those countries, it's by reminding them of the value of their own history. So I'm quite amused you read my entire statement as me wanting to excuse Islamic countries for their actions, when, really, I believe a recovery of factual historical memory might be an important part of the solution.

My point is that it's the responsibility of those countries to fix themselves. We can't fix them, even if our ancestors broke them as you claim. It's just not possible. Even if you think education would help, it has to come from themselves. Additionally, they can't be educated until they change to allow that education in the first place.

Personally I don't think telling them that all their problems is the fault of westerners is a good idea, considering they already hate westerners. Not to mention that they don't view those things as flaws right now, they think what they are doing is right and just. They would likely look at their ancestors the way we look at ours. As primitive people whose past mistakes should not be repeated.

I don't think they will respond to things in the same way you think you would. Ironically, you are hoping they would react to their past emotionally and it would change them.

[Didymus 34,380]

1 minute ago, uo111 said:

My point is that it's the responsibility of those countries to fix themselves. We can't fix them, even if our ancestors broke them as you claim. It's just not possible. Even if you think education would help, it has to come from themselves. Additionally, they can't be educated until they change to allow that education in the first place.

Personally I don't think telling them that all their problems is the fault of westerners is a good idea, considering they already hate westerners. Not to mention that they don't view those things as flaws right now, they think what they are doing is right and just. They would likely look at their ancestors the way we look at ours. As primitive people whose past mistakes should not be repeated.

I don't think they will respond to things in the same way you think you would. Ironically, you are hoping they would react to their past emotionally and it would change them.

Well, I said "we" played an important part. Not that we caused everything or that we have to solve everything.. I'm not stupid enough to think I have a ready-made solution, I'm just saying that if we educate our own citizens (which includes Muslims, a significant portion of which obviously cares about what's going on in these countries) about history and what it can teach us, then it might have a positive influence on a number of issues related to this.

The argument that they would dismiss their own ancestors is interesting and there is a possibility there. However, I don't believe that the majority of citizens would feel repelled by the freedoms they themselves would have enjoyed in previous times. Can't speak for Islamic scholars and rulers, but I don't think it's probable that the majority of people living in these countries would unanimously decide all Islamic history was absolutely barbaric and Western colonialism actually helped to set things right (don't believe that for a second).

I don't get what's ironic about that. What I meant with my emotional comment was that I think statements like "It's their fault" are a waste of time. It's like people calling criminals monsters after the fact - who cares? Is that somehow going to prevent the next one from causing damage? Maybe we should spend our time a little more efficiently than to judge and wait for change to magically occur.

And yeah, I do believe the very picture of Islamic culture being actually more progressive and evolved than the general European one in the Middle Ages will inspire many to open their ears and listen. The very foundation of Islamic terrorism right now is that the West is corrupt and has to be abolished, ironically for everything Islamic culture has tolerated long before the West. In fact, Western colonialism has been a major force in destabilizing the region and stimulating religious intolerance as a whole. That this wouldn't cause people to think about their own position is a stretch, I think.

Anyway, I think you're assuming stuff based on the drama of these posts (which I get) but fundamentally, I'm still saying the same thing I was saying in my very first post:

"Sad. Islamic culture used to be so tolerant.

I feel like if the people living there actually knew that, they'd rise up to this kind of bs. And I do believe it's important people living in the West also know."

How can you not support educating people about their own history? Surely in Western societies this should be applauded as an ideal, as a necessity? It's what defines our interpretation of current events, and you better get it right. But I guess when the shadow side of your culture opens up, suddenly this is not something to celebrate about. Understandable. But that's not stopping me.

[VANTABLACK 7,793]

1 hour ago, Didymus said:

You conniving little evil genius I love it

Thanks for reading it with interest and the compliment

Well, ambisexuality is the term academics are using more and more now because concepts of hetero- and homosexuality are pretty much unique (and very recent) for Western sentimentalities. Ambisexuality is like a corrected word for bisexuality because the latter is also a bit of a cultural myth - ambisexuality, term-wise, points to the idea that people are attracted to different sexes under different circumstances, but almost never in an exclusive way (that includes being attracted to both sexes equally, which probably doesn't even exist).

Same-sex behavior anyway is found to be present in nearly every single society there are data of. It's a growing field of studies, mainly because you couldn't even study it ('cause it was a major taboo to not run along with psychologists and sociologists who called it an immoral deviance to normativity in both the psyche and society) until the 1970's. Very interesting. Revolutionary potential for sure, since it calls into question the idea we all still grow up: men are attracted to women and vice versa because they have to procreate. This has been proven to be a fantasy, with no scientific support over and over again, but it's a stain that's hard to wash out of our culture. Which is significant, since that argument is basically the root of homophobia: same-sex inclinations become unnatural that way, even though ambisexuality is widely observed in animals of higher evolutionary degrees and has been proven time and time again to have evolutionary value.

But yes, obviously it's too simplistic to blame "Western society", I just used it to be dramatic and more effective Definitely an interesting subject, I'm happy I can talk about it here, since it concerns pretty much all of us and I do believe it can have revolutionary political potential 

If only a man talked to me about revolutionary political potential like this in bed , I'd consider staying more often . Yas  knock that sense deep into me  DIDYMUS !