Great article about Islam and Homosexuality (History/Culture)

[Andy McQueen 4,484]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/04/13/why-does-gay-sex-scare-modern-muslims-it-didn-t-in-the-golden-age.html

That was an interesting read!

 

 

[brizoda 4,176]

very interesting

[Serendipity 7,821]

watch this thread get locked by a mod to prevent religious issue debates

I'll still be reading it tho.

Thanks, Andy

[Andy McQueen 4,484]

2 minutes ago, Baby Blue said:

watch this thread get locked by a mod to prevent religious issue debates

I'll still be reading it tho.

Thanks, Andy

I hope it does not offend anyone.

Thank you!

You are welcome.

 

[Serendipity 7,821]

3 minutes ago, Andy McQueen said:

I hope it does not offend anyone.

Thank you!

You are welcome.

 

Just as I expected

some people decided to misconstrue he words of the book to make homosexuality look bad

[Dominic 11,922]

1 minute ago, Baby Blue said:

Just as I expected

some people decided to misconstrue he words of the book to make homosexuality look bad

That's a constant across a majority of religions.  Blame the people, not the book.

[brizoda 4,176]

in the Al-Andalus era (muslim conquest of Spain & Portugal) there have been a lot of sultans holding masculine harems

[avalon x 4,195]

The article is kinda... full of Bullshit.  No offense to you, Andy. It's just that this guy desperately wants to believe that it's okay for him to have **** because he wants to live guilt-free. Well, I have news for you, girlfriend. He completely ignored what the Quran and Prophet Muhammad said about homosexuality (which is the actual foundation of Islam) and just showed some very bad examples of people who broke the rules. 

Just to clarify, I'm going to quote parts of the article and then passages from the actual Quran (or quotations of Prophet Muhammad) which prove the writer wrong. 

From the Article: The word “homosexuality” is not even used in the Quran. In fact, it did not exist in the Arabic language. The modern Muslim conclusion that homosexuality is “unnatural” is therefore not based on anything in scripture.

The word "Homosexuality" wasn't mentioned but the actions involved were mentioned explicitly in the Quran.

"When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."

The Prophet (s.a.w.s) said: "Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets if be done to him."

Article: They may have been gay or asexual, but, by definition, they were not heterosexual men. They are also not judged or condemned anywhere in the Quran.

They were not judged??

" We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)"

"May Allah curse him who does that Lot's people did."

Article: The Prophet’s own example shows that he accepted men living around him who were called “Mukhannath,” seen to be “acting like women.”

Umm.. WRONG! That person was actually banished from the area and when the people asked the Prophet "Shouldn't we kill him?", He said no since he's still a Muslim person who prays.

He actually told people, "Turn them out of your houses" when dealing with effeminate guys.

As for the poets and whatnot, they just claimed to be affectionate and "in love with young men" which is not mentioned or considered a sin in the Quran as long as nothing physical is involved. And just because a few people (who are not even prominent figures of Islam) wrote poems, " Lovemaking manuals " or other books doesn't mean that it was right and accepted by the public at the time.

That's like saying "Mary Magdalene used to sit behind Judas as he rode his bike" because Lady Gaga showed it in her video. 

I'm sorry but this guy is living in a fantasy and dreaming about his own version of Islam.. not the actual one. 
P.s I don't stand by everything in Islam (like the unnecessarily harsh punishments in some cases), I'm just trying to say what the religion actually says about homosexuality. I apologize if I lost my cool, peace. 

This page mentions what the Quran actually says about Homosexuality.

 

 

[Andy McQueen 4,484]

2 minutes ago, JourneyToAvalon said:

The article is kinda... full of Bullshit.  No offense to you, Andy. It's just that this guy desperately wants to believe that it's okay for him to have **** because he wants to live guilt-free. Well, I have news for you, girlfriend. He completely ignored what the Quran and Prophet Muhammad said about homosexuality (which is the actual foundation of Islam) and just showed some very bad examples of people who broke the rules. 

Just to clarify, I'm going to quote parts of the article and then passages from the actual Quran (or quotations of Prophet Muhammad) which prove the writer wrong. 

From the Article: The word “homosexuality” is not even used in the Quran. In fact, it did not exist in the Arabic language. The modern Muslim conclusion that homosexuality is “unnatural” is therefore not based on anything in scripture.

The word "Homosexuality" wasn't mentioned but the actions involved were mentioned explicitly in the Quran.

"When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."

The Prophet (s.a.w.s) said: "Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets if be done to him."

Article: They may have been gay or asexual, but, by definition, they were not heterosexual men. They are also not judged or condemned anywhere in the Quran.

They were not judged??

" We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)"

"May Allah curse him who does that Lot's people did."

Article: The Prophet’s own example shows that he accepted men living around him who were called “Mukhannath,” seen to be “acting like women.”

Umm.. WRONG! That person was actually banished from the area and when the people asked the Prophet "Shouldn't we kill him?", He said no since he's still a Muslim person who prays.

He actually told people, "Turn them out of your houses" when dealing with effeminate guys.

As for the poets and whatnot, they just claimed to be affectionate and "in love with young men" which is not mentioned or considered a sin in the Quran as long as nothing physical is involved. And just because a few people (who are not even prominent figures of Islam) wrote poems, " Lovemaking manuals " or other books doesn't mean that it was right and accepted by the public at the time.

That's like saying "Mary Magdalene used to sit behind Judas as he rode his bike" because Lady Gaga showed it in her video. 

I'm sorry but this guy is living in a fantasy and dreaming about his own version of Islam.. not the actual one. 
P.s I don't stand by everything in Islam (like the unnecessarily harsh punishments in some cases), I'm just trying to say what the religion actually says about homosexuality. I apologize if I lost my cool, peace. 

This page mentions what the Quran actually says about Homosexuality.

 

 

 

 

Thanks a lot for your explanation! That's really horrible.  Tbh often I think our world and society would be much better without religions and their awful dogmas. 
 

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

What's interesting is that the Bible had no plausible mention of homosexuality or related activities, beyond some dubious mentions in the Old Testament that can easily be interpreted to mean other things, but its adherents interpreted many sections in their own way to fit their own bigotry. 

On the other hand, the Quran was very much clear in its indignation towards homosexuality, but culturally speaking most people did not give a damn. Hell my favorite book in Arabic was written by a very popular novelist called Abu Nawas and he wrote about gay stuff all the time. Only recently have his works come under fire and this guy lived 1200 years ago.  

It's interesting how the roles have reversed over time. Frankly the rise of Islamic fundamentalism and the resistance to Western culture are the real reasons homosexuality is a big taboo in the Middle East (and other Islamic countries).

[ryanripley 86,575]

2 hours ago, JourneyToAvalon said:

The article is kinda... full of Bullshit.  No offense to you, Andy. It's just that this guy desperately wants to believe that it's okay for him to have **** because he wants to live guilt-free. Well, I have news for you, girlfriend. He completely ignored what the Quran and Prophet Muhammad said about homosexuality (which is the actual foundation of Islam) and just showed some very bad examples of people who broke the rules. 

Just to clarify, I'm going to quote parts of the article and then passages from the actual Quran (or quotations of Prophet Muhammad) which prove the writer wrong. 

From the Article: The word “homosexuality” is not even used in the Quran. In fact, it did not exist in the Arabic language. The modern Muslim conclusion that homosexuality is “unnatural” is therefore not based on anything in scripture.

The word "Homosexuality" wasn't mentioned but the actions involved were mentioned explicitly in the Quran.

"When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."

The Prophet (s.a.w.s) said: "Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets if be done to him."

Article: They may have been gay or asexual, but, by definition, they were not heterosexual men. They are also not judged or condemned anywhere in the Quran.

They were not judged??

" We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)"

"May Allah curse him who does that Lot's people did."

Article: The Prophet’s own example shows that he accepted men living around him who were called “Mukhannath,” seen to be “acting like women.”

Umm.. WRONG! That person was actually banished from the area and when the people asked the Prophet "Shouldn't we kill him?", He said no since he's still a Muslim person who prays.

He actually told people, "Turn them out of your houses" when dealing with effeminate guys.

As for the poets and whatnot, they just claimed to be affectionate and "in love with young men" which is not mentioned or considered a sin in the Quran as long as nothing physical is involved. And just because a few people (who are not even prominent figures of Islam) wrote poems, " Lovemaking manuals " or other books doesn't mean that it was right and accepted by the public at the time.

That's like saying "Mary Magdalene used to sit behind Judas as he rode his bike" because Lady Gaga showed it in her video. 

I'm sorry but this guy is living in a fantasy and dreaming about his own version of Islam.. not the actual one. 
P.s I don't stand by everything in Islam (like the unnecessarily harsh punishments in some cases), I'm just trying to say what the religion actually says about homosexuality. I apologize if I lost my cool, peace. 

This page mentions what the Quran actually says about Homosexuality.

 

 

 

 

yas i'm glad someone said it  

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

2 hours ago, JourneyToAvalon said:

As for the poets and whatnot, they just claimed to be affectionate and "in love with young men" which is not mentioned or considered a sin in the Quran as long as nothing physical is involved. And just because a few people (who are not even prominent figures of Islam) wrote poems, " Lovemaking manuals " or other books doesn't mean that it was right and accepted by the public at the time.

 

I agree with your post but this particular part is revisionist.

The public did not think about it much. It wasn't like in Roman or Greek times but it wasn't the big deal that it is today. Most of the animus today is a result of the rise of fundamentalist ideologies and the resistance to Western culture.

Honestly it was far worse in Christian countries back then.

[avalon x 4,195]

12 minutes ago, LebaneseDude said:

I agree with your post but this particular part is revisionist.

The public did not think about it much. It wasn't like in Roman or Greek times but it wasn't the big deal that it is today. Most of the animus today is a result of the rise of fundamentalist ideologies and the resistance to Western culture.

Honestly it was far worse in Christian countries back then.

That was actually my opinion. I'm just saying that yes those books exist but did many people actually know about it back then to create a fuss? Was the society proper followers of Islam? Did the government strictly punish homosexuality at the time? Maybe writing books about it wasn't considered as bad or punishable?  There are too many variables that we don't know about and we can't hold them as an example without knowing them.

But whatever the case.. even if the public didn't make a big deal about it and people wrote books about it, poems about it, does that change the fact that the Quran forbids sex between men? The religion has been the same, whether people chose to follow it or ignore it was on them. There does not and will not exist a loophole. No matter how many people have ignored the rule in the past, it has always been forbidden.

We can't just look at a few examples and generalize a whole religion. Does a Muslim society automatically mean they follow the Quran to the T? There has always been Muslim societies who neglected the rules. And also.. maybe it wasn't such a big deal because homosexuality wasn't as prevalent and in the spotlight as it is today? If the fire wasn't that big.. why would they need to call the firemen?

 

47 minutes ago, LebaneseDude said:

Most of the animus today is a result of the rise of fundamentalist ideologies and the resistance to Western culture.

That of course is your opinion. I agree that there are extremists out there and I'm not saying that every country is perfectly following Islam today but I wouldn't blame animosity towards homosexuality on fundamentalist ideologies when these rules have always existed and people have been punished for it for a long time.

And obviously if a culture is contradicting your principles and beliefs, you'll resist it. Not because it's a fun hobby.

[LebaneseDude 6,146]

2 minutes ago, JourneyToAvalon said:

That was actually my opinion. I'm just saying that yes those books exist but did many people actually know about it back then to create a fuss? Was the society proper followers of Islam? Did the government strictly punish homosexuality at the time? Maybe writing books about it wasn't considered as bad or punishable?  There are too many variables that we don't know about and we can't hold them as an example without knowing them.

But whatever the case.. even if the public didn't make a big deal about it and people wrote books about it, poems about it, does that change the fact that the Quran forbids sex between men? The religion has been the same, whether people chose to follow it or ignore it was on them. There does not and will not exist a loophole. No matter how many people have ignored the rule in the past, it has always been forbidden.

We can't just look at a few examples and generalize a whole religion. Does a Muslim society automatically mean they follow the Quran to the T? There has always been Muslim societies who neglected the rules. And also.. maybe it wasn't such a big deal because homosexuality wasn't as prevalent and in the spotlight as it is today? If the fire wasn't that big.. why would they need to call the firemen?

 

Even you mentioned it. There's an important distinction to be made between religion and culture.

Clearly they are related, for example when it comes to extremism being justified by religious zealotry, but this wasn't the case here.

Islam frowned about homosexuality, but the culture didn't until recently. It wasn't celebrated or anything but it wasn't the "50 lashes" kind of deal you see today.

[avalon x 4,195]

2 minutes ago, LebaneseDude said:

Still there's an important distinction to be made between religion and culture.

Islam frowned about homosexuality, but the culture didn't until recently.

Gurl, I know you know which one's which.

Because homosexuality itself wasn't a huge issue until recently, like I said, it wasn't as prevalent or talked about before.. in any country for that matter. We know that the rules were always there, we just don't know how they were dealt with.

And I have a strong feeling that a lot of Muslim countries didn't even acknowledge homosexuality until recently.

"Homosexuality? Wtf is that?"  

(Although I'm no expert on the matter, just my two cents. )