Question about Formation.

[StrawberryBlond 14,112]

15 minutes ago, MarryTheSequins said:

 

I'm sorry but you're so far off the mark and from your previous posts in this thread it's clearly because you simply don't like Beyoncé. Nobody's forcing you to like the song but to say it doesn't address black issues is straight up delusional. It's already been pointed out for you (I'm going to copy and paste things from BrianXRyan that you should read again):

'I like my baby heir with baby hair and afros
I like my negro nose with Jackson Five nostrils'

A lot of people especially even in the black community do not have a lot of respect for black hair.

-You're white, right? And I'm guessing you don't have many black friends. Anyway, my best friend naturally has gorgeous afro hair, but even her own family tell her that her hair is dirty, messy and needs to be kept in braids (a more european hair style). Thats black people telling other black people that their black features need to be hidden and made more white, so how do you think the general perception of black hair is from a white point of view? It's a genuine issue; an example you may be more familiar with is how big lips are seen as desirable on white girls yet not on black girls - the people who generally tend to have natural bigger lips. Black girls are constantly being told that their features aren't good enough and they need to make themselves more white, i even know a girl who was using skin lightening treatments. Beyoncé is not only empowering herself (you will agree, you've mentioned several times that this is a Beyoncé song about Beyoncé) but it's a message that if Beyoncé can love those features about herself then other girls should too. This is FURTHER shown in the video when it cuts to a clip of her daughter smiling (please don't tell me the video is separate from the song because it's not - the race issues are being discussed in both).

'She's basically saying she made all this money even though she had to push through racial barriers and still has to take heed. She is showing respect and black pride.'

-I mean how you can disagree with this confuses me. Your entire argument is that Beyoncé doesn't care about race issues and it's actually a song about herself...yeah it's a song about how she (a person of colour) became overwhelmingly successful DESPITE everything else going on. That's why she keeps talking about her money and success. By the same argument, Born This Way is a selfish song Gaga wrote only about herself (MY mama told me when I was young...SHE rolled MY hair...) but it's disguised as a song for everyone. We both know that's not true.  If anything, Beyoncé's frequent mentions of her success are motivational. You can come from this background or another background which isn't white and still make it big. 

 

Overall it really just comes off as though you don't like Beyoncé and would rather believe this whole thing is a money making scam than actually accept she might be genuine. Even if it is for the money, to completely deny she tackles race issues is delusional. I didn't mention the police imagery, it should be obvious to you what that refers to 

Well, I won't deny that I don't like her, but I always judge music fairly regardless of what I think of the artist.

I completely understand all the issues with black hair and how even some blacks don't like it. But that doesn't mean that just because Beyonce likes hers translates into a message that all black woman should too. I find it ironic that Beyonce says she likes her natural hair when she's been relaxing and colouring it for years. Its also been highly speculated that she's had a nose job (pictures are pretty conclusive), so why does she suddenly like her (not so) natural nose? There's even the very controversial claim that she's had skin lightening done - I've even heard the phrase "the richer Beyonce gets, the whiter she gets" a few times (she certainly has got lighter over the year no matter how you look at it). Where did this sudden acceptance of her natural looks come from? It seems very timely and fake to me.

It baffles me that no one else can see my way of looking at things. I know self-centeredness when I see it. It can be cleverly disguised as caring about everyone. No, BTW was not a selfish song (not the first time someone's pitted this against Formation, I might add). The only specific Gaga makes is when she says what her mother said to her when she was young. She didn't say where her mother came from, or what brand of make up she used or what the dimensions of her face were. The rest of it is a shout-out to everyone of every race and sexual orientation. Not the song's biggest fan but that is an empowerment song, Formation is not. The best empowerment songs are vague and non-specific, otherwise only the singer will be empowered by them. As proven by Flawless (which I like, even in a somewhat guilty pleasure way), she seems incapable of tackling a social issue without making it all about herself. And as a woman and a feminist, I can point out so many problematic things about Flawless, namely, Beyonce's egoism. If you want a real feminist anthem that includes all women and is free of the singers egos, listen to Sisters Are Doin' It For Themselves.

Like I said, she cleverly makes you believe she's tackling race issues when she's actually not. That video provides visual aids that aren't in the song to make you believe otherwise. She didn't make this stuff before black protests and Black Lives Matter happened. She's an opportunist in so many ways. She's always featured artists in her songs when they're popular but drop them as soon as they're no longer at their peak (Sean Paul, Shakira, Lady Gaga...likely Drake and Nicki in the future too). She tries to get featured on her successful husband's work whenever she can and even leeched off his fame by doing a joint tour with him. She used her pregnancy as part of a ploy to become the public's darling again and has brought promotion to Blue wherever she can. And ever since the Superbowl, she's succeeded on a mission to be #1 again by promoting herself everywhere and making everything she releases seem like "drop everything, I'm here." She drives me mad with her egoism and I don't see how she has so many fans because of it. She's using the recent black issues as nothing more than self-promotion again and it worked. I'm hoping this will be where her foreign fans leave her. It might teach her a bit of karma. You can't start off an era only supporting one race and expect all your international fans to bow down to you.

I think some people here need to research how the media and record labels work. It's all very cynical and manipulative how they trick us. We've got to get wise to it and stop giving these people our money. They want us to believe they run this show. They don't - the public do. We've got to show them we're smarter than they give us credit for.

[littlepotter 74,474]

23 minutes ago, Ferrer Zorola said:

I thought you said "your honesty gave me life" lmao 

 

[Thomas P 18,467]

52 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Well, I won't deny that I don't like her, but I always judge music fairly regardless of what I think of the artist.

I completely understand all the issues with black hair and how even some blacks don't like it. But that doesn't mean that just because Beyonce likes hers translates into a message that all black woman should too. I find it ironic that Beyonce says she likes her natural hair when she's been relaxing and colouring it for years. Its also been highly speculated that she's had a nose job (pictures are pretty conclusive), so why does she suddenly like her (not so) natural nose? There's even the very controversial claim that she's had skin lightening done - I've even heard the phrase "the richer Beyonce gets, the whiter she gets" a few times (she certainly has got lighter over the year no matter how you look at it). Where did this sudden acceptance of her natural looks come from? It seems very timely and fake to me.

It baffles me that no one else can see my way of looking at things. I know self-centeredness when I see it. It can be cleverly disguised as caring about everyone. No, BTW was not a selfish song (not the first time someone's pitted this against Formation, I might add). The only specific Gaga makes is when she says what her mother said to her when she was young. She didn't say where her mother came from, or what brand of make up she used or what the dimensions of her face were. The rest of it is a shout-out to everyone of every race and sexual orientation. Not the song's biggest fan but that is an empowerment song, Formation is not. The best empowerment songs are vague and non-specific, otherwise only the singer will be empowered by them. As proven by Flawless (which I like, even in a somewhat guilty pleasure way), she seems incapable of tackling a social issue without making it all about herself. And as a woman and a feminist, I can point out so many problematic things about Flawless, namely, Beyonce's egoism. If you want a real feminist anthem that includes all women and is free of the singers egos, listen to Sisters Are Doin' It For Themselves.

Like I said, she cleverly makes you believe she's tackling race issues when she's actually not. That video provides visual aids that aren't in the song to make you believe otherwise. She didn't make this stuff before black protests and Black Lives Matter happened. She's an opportunist in so many ways. She's always featured artists in her songs when they're popular but drop them as soon as they're no longer at their peak (Sean Paul, Shakira, Lady Gaga...likely Drake and Nicki in the future too). She tries to get featured on her successful husband's work whenever she can and even leeched off his fame by doing a joint tour with him. She used her pregnancy as part of a ploy to become the public's darling again and has brought promotion to Blue wherever she can. And ever since the Superbowl, she's succeeded on a mission to be #1 again by promoting herself everywhere and making everything she releases seem like "drop everything, I'm here." She drives me mad with her egoism and I don't see how she has so many fans because of it. She's using the recent black issues as nothing more than self-promotion again and it worked. I'm hoping this will be where her foreign fans leave her. It might teach her a bit of karma. You can't start off an era only supporting one race and expect all your international fans to bow down to you.

I think some people here need to research how the media and record labels work. It's all very cynical and manipulative how they trick us. We've got to get wise to it and stop giving these people our money. They want us to believe they run this show. They don't - the public do. We've got to show them we're smarter than they give us credit for.

Okay so I've tried to stay as far away from this fight as I could, and even tho u have made some SERIOUSLY great points, u also made some I strongly disagree with. I think I'm just gonna leave it at that...

[Ziggy 10,744]

3 hours ago, littlepotter said:

I guess I agree to some extent... I was also just pointing the similarities of accusations. If Gaga were to stand up for black people I wouldn't see a problem. Just what the GP thinks.

Oh totally. They would hound her, but it depends on how she advocates for them. Like, with bullying she draws on real experiences. She was bullied so she can speak as someone bullied whereas a white person speaking about the plight of black people rings as condescending since they aren't black and haven't and won't experience that.

[Brian Ryan 1,468]

7 hours ago, littlepotter said:

This is basically the argument people use when calling Gaga a faker for standing up for LGBTs

  Hide contents

& none of that Poker Face bullshit.

 

Cause it's true. Do you know how it feels to be black? Of course, there are advocates who have also fight for black rights, but one thing they cannot be black. Until you are black... white or whatever it is you don't actually know the ramifications of being black. You just know what you read, hear, and research. At the end of the day, you still will never walk in a black female's shoes or more importantly black man's shoes. Wake up.

[littlepotter 74,474]

3 hours ago, BrianxRyan said:

Cause it's true. Do you know how it feels to be black? Of course, there are advocates who have also fight for black rights, but one thing they cannot be black. Until you are black... white or whatever it is you don't actually know the ramifications of being black. You just know what you read, hear, and research. At the end of the day, you still will never walk in a black female's shoes or more importantly black man's shoes. Wake up.

Um I'm awake thanks? I don't think I said anything other than point out the thing about the similarity in the whole thread. Don't know why you tagged me...

Spoiler

Til' you are black

You don't know

How it feels

No it won't be real

Sorry had to post this

 

[Brian Ryan 1,468]

11 hours ago, littlepotter said:

Um I'm awake thanks? I don't think I said anything other than point out the thing about the similarity in the whole thread. Don't know why you tagged me...

  Hide contents

Til' you are black

You don't know

How it feels

No it won't be real

Sorry had to post this

 

Til' you are black

You don't know

How it feels

No it won't be real

Sorry had to post this

Agreed.

Have you ever been racially profiled?

[Brian Ryan 1,468]

On 3/29/2016 at 4:20 PM, Metamorphosis said:

Nice! Not sure if you remember me, but I was originally robotdanger. Probably not, though because I was always in chat back in the day. 

 

I'm not good with usernames. Sorry. I just usually remember faces.

[Brian Ryan 1,468]

19 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Well, I won't deny that I don't like her, but I always judge music fairly regardless of what I think of the artist.

I completely understand all the issues with black hair and how even some blacks don't like it. But that doesn't mean that just because Beyonce likes hers translates into a message that all black woman should too. I find it ironic that Beyonce says she likes her natural hair when she's been relaxing and colouring it for years. Its also been highly speculated that she's had a nose job (pictures are pretty conclusive), so why does she suddenly like her (not so) natural nose? There's even the very controversial claim that she's had skin lightening done - I've even heard the phrase "the richer Beyonce gets, the whiter she gets" a few times (she certainly has got lighter over the year no matter how you look at it). Where did this sudden acceptance of her natural looks come from? It seems very timely and fake to me.

It baffles me that no one else can see my way of looking at things. I know self-centeredness when I see it. It can be cleverly disguised as caring about everyone. No, BTW was not a selfish song (not the first time someone's pitted this against Formation, I might add). The only specific Gaga makes is when she says what her mother said to her when she was young. She didn't say where her mother came from, or what brand of make up she used or what the dimensions of her face were. The rest of it is a shout-out to everyone of every race and sexual orientation. Not the song's biggest fan but that is an empowerment song, Formation is not. The best empowerment songs are vague and non-specific, otherwise only the singer will be empowered by them. As proven by Flawless (which I like, even in a somewhat guilty pleasure way), she seems incapable of tackling a social issue without making it all about herself. And as a woman and a feminist, I can point out so many problematic things about Flawless, namely, Beyonce's egoism. If you want a real feminist anthem that includes all women and is free of the singers egos, listen to Sisters Are Doin' It For Themselves.

Like I said, she cleverly makes you believe she's tackling race issues when she's actually not. That video provides visual aids that aren't in the song to make you believe otherwise. She didn't make this stuff before black protests and Black Lives Matter happened. She's an opportunist in so many ways. She's always featured artists in her songs when they're popular but drop them as soon as they're no longer at their peak (Sean Paul, Shakira, Lady Gaga...likely Drake and Nicki in the future too). She tries to get featured on her successful husband's work whenever she can and even leeched off his fame by doing a joint tour with him. She used her pregnancy as part of a ploy to become the public's darling again and has brought promotion to Blue wherever she can. And ever since the Superbowl, she's succeeded on a mission to be #1 again by promoting herself everywhere and making everything she releases seem like "drop everything, I'm here." She drives me mad with her egoism and I don't see how she has so many fans because of it. She's using the recent black issues as nothing more than self-promotion again and it worked. I'm hoping this will be where her foreign fans leave her. It might teach her a bit of karma. You can't start off an era only supporting one race and expect all your international fans to bow down to you.

I think some people here need to research how the media and record labels work. It's all very cynical and manipulative how they trick us. We've got to get wise to it and stop giving these people our money. They want us to believe they run this show. They don't - the public do. We've got to show them we're smarter than they give us credit for.

I already said the song is mostly about her. A lot of people like it because you can get empowerment from it, it does tackle attack black issues to some extent, and it's just a fun song about standing together. The video features that and more... you don't think so... that's fine. This conversation is going nowhere.

[littlepotter 74,474]

7 minutes ago, BrianxRyan said:

Til' you are black

You don't know

How it feels

No it won't be real

Sorry had to post this

Agreed.

Have you ever been racially profiled?

I'm Middle Eastern. I'm pretty sure we come in second when it comes to racial profiling. Except we got no one making songs about how we're not all carrying bombs in our purses 

[Brian Ryan 1,468]

3 minutes ago, littlepotter said:

I'm Middle Eastern. I'm pretty sure we come in second when it comes to racial profiling. Except we got no one making songs about how we're not all carrying bombs in our purses 

What was the purpose of this post? No one is rating who is more looked down in society. Hot sauce is a southern thing in the United States a lot of black people don't do and some people do. A lot of black people get the reference because of her culture. The same thing about the N Word. Are you stating that it's the same with Middle Eastern carrying bombs in our purses. I wouldn't make such silly comments especially considering the state of many countries and how people feel about Middle Eastern countries. There's nothing to joke about when it comes to matters such as these... it's plain ignorance.

[littlepotter 74,474]

47 minutes ago, BrianxRyan said:

What was the purpose of this post? No one is rating who is more looked down in society. Hot sauce is a southern thing in the United States a lot of black people don't do and some people do. A lot of black people get the reference because of her culture. The same thing about the N Word. Are you stating that it's the same with Middle Eastern carrying bombs in our purses. I wouldn't make such silly comments especially considering the state of many countries and how people feel about Middle Eastern countries. There's nothing to joke about when it comes to matters such as these... it's plain ignorance.

What does hot sauce have to do in all of this? I was not referencing Formation's 'hot sauce in my bag' lyric, if that's what you mean, it was just a coincidence; I was talking about the stereotypes people associate with the Middle East and terrorists in particular. Of course I do have the right to joke about this, because it's ridiculous. 

I have the feeling we're talking on two different levels. My comments weren't meant to be taken that seriously.

[Brian Ryan 1,468]

1 minute ago, littlepotter said:

What does hot sauce have to do in all of this? I was not referencing Formation's 'hot sauce in my bag' lyric, if that's what you mean, it was just a coincidence; I was talking about the stereotypes people associate with the Middle East and terrorists in particular. Of course I do have the right to joke about this, because it's ridiculous. 

I have the feeling we're talking on two different levels. My comments weren't meant to be taken that seriously.

Understood.

[Kayla 7,595]

21 hours ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Well, I won't deny that I don't like her, but I always judge music fairly regardless of what I think of the artist.

I completely understand all the issues with black hair and how even some blacks don't like it. But that doesn't mean that just because Beyonce likes hers translates into a message that all black woman should too. I find it ironic that Beyonce says she likes her natural hair when she's been relaxing and colouring it for years. Its also been highly speculated that she's had a nose job (pictures are pretty conclusive), so why does she suddenly like her (not so) natural nose? There's even the very controversial claim that she's had skin lightening done - I've even heard the phrase "the richer Beyonce gets, the whiter she gets" a few times (she certainly has got lighter over the year no matter how you look at it). Where did this sudden acceptance of her natural looks come from? It seems very timely and fake to me.

It baffles me that no one else can see my way of looking at things. I know self-centeredness when I see it. It can be cleverly disguised as caring about everyone. No, BTW was not a selfish song (not the first time someone's pitted this against Formation, I might add). The only specific Gaga makes is when she says what her mother said to her when she was young. She didn't say where her mother came from, or what brand of make up she used or what the dimensions of her face were. The rest of it is a shout-out to everyone of every race and sexual orientation. Not the song's biggest fan but that is an empowerment song, Formation is not. The best empowerment songs are vague and non-specific, otherwise only the singer will be empowered by them. As proven by Flawless (which I like, even in a somewhat guilty pleasure way), she seems incapable of tackling a social issue without making it all about herself. And as a woman and a feminist, I can point out so many problematic things about Flawless, namely, Beyonce's egoism. If you want a real feminist anthem that includes all women and is free of the singers egos, listen to Sisters Are Doin' It For Themselves.

Like I said, she cleverly makes you believe she's tackling race issues when she's actually not. That video provides visual aids that aren't in the song to make you believe otherwise. She didn't make this stuff before black protests and Black Lives Matter happened. She's an opportunist in so many ways. She's always featured artists in her songs when they're popular but drop them as soon as they're no longer at their peak (Sean Paul, Shakira, Lady Gaga...likely Drake and Nicki in the future too). She tries to get featured on her successful husband's work whenever she can and even leeched off his fame by doing a joint tour with him. She used her pregnancy as part of a ploy to become the public's darling again and has brought promotion to Blue wherever she can. And ever since the Superbowl, she's succeeded on a mission to be #1 again by promoting herself everywhere and making everything she releases seem like "drop everything, I'm here." She drives me mad with her egoism and I don't see how she has so many fans because of it. She's using the recent black issues as nothing more than self-promotion again and it worked. I'm hoping this will be where her foreign fans leave her. It might teach her a bit of karma. You can't start off an era only supporting one race and expect all your international fans to bow down to you.

I think some people here need to research how the media and record labels work. It's all very cynical and manipulative how they trick us. We've got to get wise to it and stop giving these people our money. They want us to believe they run this show. They don't - the public do. We've got to show them we're smarter than they give us credit for.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, tbh. I also agree with a lot of what the opposing side is saying.

There are different types of leaders, and you seem to be the type who like the more indirect leaders. The ones who lead more by getting people to see the beauty in themselves (like Gaga), not so much the people who lead by setting an example and having that example be inspiring (like Beyonce). 

For some people, stanning for someone successful like Beyonce and singing her lyrics make them, on some level, feel like they're a part of her world and that her success can be attainable for them too. For people who draw pleasure by living vicariously through others, Beyonce's music can be empowering.

You seem to admire people who put themselves aside to empower others, people who allow their presence music to be the catalyst, not the focal point.

As far as Beyonce's tactics go, I feel the same way about them as I do Taylor Swift's - they are the moves of a business woman. I respect Beyonce for her presence- I personally find enjoyment when I watch her perform. But I wouldn't put Bey, or Tay, on an ARTIST level like I do Gaga, because I see their music and promotion to be focused on the business infinitely more than the actual art, and that I will admit I have very little respect for. 
 

[StrawberryBlond 14,112]

21 hours ago, Thomas P said:

Okay so I've tried to stay as far away from this fight as I could, and even tho u have made some SERIOUSLY great points, u also made some I strongly disagree with. I think I'm just gonna leave it at that...

As long as you understand my opinion, it's fine.

2 hours ago, BrianxRyan said:

I already said the song is mostly about her. A lot of people like it because you can get empowerment from it, it does tackle attack black issues to some extent, and it's just a fun song about standing together. The video features that and more... you don't think so... that's fine. This conversation is going nowhere.

It's just I think it's important to separate song and video seeing as some music videos barely resemble the song's lyrics or message sometimes (I mean, we are Gaga fans, we should relate to that). Not just talking about Formation, but I've seen other people become too focused on what the video's saying as opposed to what the audio's saying. When Beyonce introduced the song to us, she had the whole Black Panther thing going on, so it was easy to think it was more about race than it actually was. But if we had the song in purely audio form beforehand with no visuals, we'd have a very different message. That's all I'm saying.

38 minutes ago, Kayla said:

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, tbh. I also agree with a lot of what the opposing side is saying.

There are different types of leaders, and you seem to be the type who like the more indirect leaders. The ones who lead more by getting people to see the beauty in themselves (like Gaga), not so much the people who lead by setting an example and having that example be inspiring (like Beyonce). 

For some people, stanning for someone successful like Beyonce and singing her lyrics make them, on some level, feel like they're a part of her world and that her success can be attainable for them too. For people who draw pleasure by living vicariously through others, Beyonce's music can be empowering.

You seem to admire people who put themselves aside to empower others, people who allow their presence music to be the catalyst, not the focal point.

As far as Beyonce's tactics go, I feel the same way about them as I do Taylor Swift's - they are the moves of a business woman. I respect Beyonce for her presence- I personally find enjoyment when I watch her perform. But I wouldn't put Bey, or Tay, on an ARTIST level like I do Gaga, because I see their music and promotion to be focused on the business infinitely more than the actual art, and that I will admit I have very little respect for.

That's a good way of putting it. I think when it comes to writing an empowerment song for the people, it has to be indirect, so everyone can relate, otherwise, it's not doing its job. Focus too much on your personal experiences, and it's like you're not making this song for the right reasons. If you want to write a self-celebration song, just make one - don't dress it up as something's it's not. I actually applaud specifics in songs in general (songs should be personal and not relatable to everyone) but if your aim is to make an empowerment anthem, it has to include everyone and your ego should be dropped. I'm not averse to singing along to self-congratulatory lyrics that I can't relate to but only if it's a song that's honest in its intentions as a celebration of the artist. If it's trying to masquerade as a song for everyone to relate to, then I've got problems with it. If Formation was marketed simply as a Beyonce song, I wouldn't have as much to say. But because she's claiming it's a song for all black people when it's obviously nothing but a self-congratulation ego trip, I have major issues. Besides, Beyonce isn't exactly known for intelligent lyrics (and she gets most of her songs ghost written anyway). I don't think she has the ability to sing intellectually about race issues, so this is the best she can do. There have been songs that deal with race issues so much more intelligently but they don't get noticed. Instead, this one is held up as a racial empowerment anthem for the youth of today. Speaking as a white person, I'd say the black community deserves better.

It's not healthy to live vicariously through people. Even I subconsciously do it a bit with Gaga, but nowhere near as bad as I used to (when people insulted her and her work, it felt like they were insulting me). But I was a teenager back then and I'm older now and realise how skewed that kind of thinking is. When my life is nowhere near the life that the artist is singing about, it can be fun to sing along to, but it can't be inspiring.

I totally agree about her being similar to Taylor - more businesswomen than artists. Everything's a marketing decision, a calculated choice to boost sales and their profile. If Gaga got dropped from her record label tomorrow, she'd still be happy and continue to make art. If Beyonce got dropped tomorrow, she'd be crushed and feel like a failure. No shame in feeling that way, but I have the feeling she'd be more disappointed at losing her success as opposed to not being able to release music.