Gaga: "ARTFLOP My Ass"

[Didymus 34,380]

Just now, Sara said:

True, I never agreed with calling Gaga "superior" just because she charted better than other artists years ago.  I don't like pitting artists against each other because each has their own thing, and as long as enough people like their music to pay the bills, then they are just as worthy.  

But I don't like comparing the commercial success of albums of the same artist.  I've become a bit of a fan of Fleetwood Mac, and I think Tusk is a genius album that stood the test of time.  I was horrified to find out that Tusk was considered a huge flop when it was released just because it didn't sell as well as their previous album Rumors. I do consider that shallow.

Oh, I get that. Commercial success definitely shouldn't override an album's quality or dominate its reputation. But I was more replying to you saying that it's even shallow to just compare albums in terms of commercial success alone, as in: saying ARTPOP, commercially, flopped because it marked a huge (75%+) decline in terms of first week album sales. I don't like to see people pretending that it wasn't a commercial failure because it just was, end of story. If it had happened to any other artist, this forum would've been unanimous in stating that the numbers weren't good. Comparing them to Katy is in a way also ludicrous since PRISM marked Katy's best first week sales yet. I just think it's sad that this fanbase finds it so hard to accept that Gaga just doesn't do well sometimes. I think if people just accepted the obvious more, we would also have more time to spend on discussing what actually matters about the album.

But this whole thread is just another reminder that Gaga's commercial success really is fundamental for the majority of this forum's fan experience. When Gaga does well, she's better than anyone else, if she doesn't do well, it's ignored or excuses are made. If other artists do well, it's because of an unfair promo scheme, if they don't do well they're flops who are never gonna recover ever again. It's just disappointing but hey, can't do anything about it. Just wanted to state how I felt about calling a simple commercial analysis "shallow" but I see what you meant now.

[Bradley 59,583]

9 minutes ago, Didymus said:

The fact is that she declined dramatically commercially. That's not even criticism that's just a reality. Whether or not you react emotionally to that is your own bias.

I don't give a **** about charts, but it's still funny to me how pre-ARTPOP everyone here was parading around the notion that Gaga's album sales proved her superiority over other female pop artists and then when she sells just as much as them in 2013 suddenly the bar is lowered and now it's absolutely fine that she sells as much as Katy ****ing Perry's record Calling it a flop for that reason is not "hate" to me. It's the people who change their minds every four seconds to find new ways to keep Gaga protected from even the most obvious scrutiny that are really shallow.

Calling ARTPOP a mistake and the "breeder of delusional fans" is not scrutiny. It's outright insult and if defending against this statement is shallow, it definitely is not as shallow as the act of making that statement. I know you didn't say it, but you liked that post, so I assume you support that statement. Some scrutiny coming from mere artistic perspective IS fine, but the disparaging remarks that Ray of Light made (whose post you liked) are not scrutiny but hateful and shallow.

[deeman 189]

27 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Calling it a flop for that reason is not "hate" to me. It's the people who change their minds every four seconds to find new ways to keep Gaga protected from even the most obvious scrutiny that are really shallow.

 

Its ludicrouse. See first the music is either viciously attacked or just not even mentioned toggether with probable charachter assasination. note i didn't follow media at all just know how it works too get the reactions i have seen from people. then because there was less sales due to these factors you then claim it  was a flop. it is backward logic. the media could sell ice too eskimos which is what they actually do most of the time and keep the very best off the shelves which is what they do most of the time. just look at the film like the green beautiful it is actually banned in the eu. you will not find it on tv nobody has heard of it and it is stripped off youtube but such a good film.

 

[Didymus 34,380]

1 minute ago, AmericanHSlave said:

Calling ARTPOP a mistake and the "breeder of delusional fans" is not scrutiny. It's outright insult and if defending against this statement is shallow, it definitely is not as shallow as the act of making that statement. I know you didn't say it, but you liked that post, so I assume you support that statement. Some scrutiny coming from mere artistic perspective IS fine, but the disparaging remarks that Ray of Light made (whose post you liked) are not scrutiny but hateful and shallow.

I liked it because it was refreshingly and brutally straightforward But obviously I don't include that under "obvious scrutiny", I was talking about another user that Sara replied to I don't see what you're trying to do here, since you're not in any way talking about what I was actually talking about..

[Didymus 34,380]

3 minutes ago, deeman said:

Its ludicrouse. See first the music is either viciously attacked or just not even mentioned toggether with probable charchter assasination. note i didn't floow media at all just know how it works. then beccause there was less sales due to these factors you then claim it wwas a flop. it is backward logic. the media could sell ice too eskimos which is what they actually do most of the time and keep the very best off the shelves which is whhat they do most of the time. jusst look at the film like the green beautiful it is actually banned in the eu. you will not find it n tv nobody has heard of it and it is stripped off youtube but such a good film.

We're talking about different things. I'm talking solely about commercial analysis. I don't agree that the album should be called a flop in total just because it didn't sell well. I'm just talking about people who can't even admit that the album failed commercially (by Gaga's own standard) and again: I don't care about charts, to me it's no insult to say it failed commercially (most of my favorite albums didn't even make it in the Top 100).

I don't really agree with your media accusation in the context of music.. nowadays there is a lot of attention for underground/independent releases and from what I read, music critics aren't interested in only discussing the popular releases.

Nor do I agree with your idea that because the critics don't like an album, it won't sell per definition That's just not true.

[Sara 1,133]

9 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Oh, I get that. Commercial success definitely shouldn't override an album's quality or dominate its reputation. But I was more replying to you saying that it's even shallow to just compare albums in terms of commercial success alone, as in: saying ARTPOP, commercially, flopped because it marked a huge (75%+) decline in terms of first week album sales. I don't like to see people pretending that it wasn't a commercial failure because it just was, end of story. If it had happened to any other artist, this forum would've been unanimous in stating that the numbers weren't good. Comparing them to Katy is in a way also ludicrous since PRISM marked Katy's best first week sales yet. I just think it's sad that this fanbase finds it so hard to accept that Gaga just doesn't do well sometimes. I think if people just accepted the obvious more, we would also have more time to spend on discussing what actually matters about the album.

But this whole thread is just another reminder that Gaga's commercial success really is fundamental for the majority of this forum's fan experience. When Gaga does well, she's better than anyone else, if she doesn't do well, it's ignored or excuses are made. If other artists do well, it's because of an unfair promo scheme, if they don't do well they're flops who are never gonna recover ever again. It's just disappointing but hey, can't do anything about it. Just wanted to state how I felt about calling a simple commercial analysis "shallow" but I see what you meant now.

I just want to be careful that we don't define "flop" as a drop in sales, even a big drop.  The Beatles had a big drop in sales in some albums that came after "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band", but those albums contain some of the most iconic songs in Beatles history.  You can't possibly call them flops.  I just refuse to judge music that way.

 

Yes, there are some fans to praise Gaga for success and are willing to forgive or overlook failures.  What's wrong with that?  It's just part of loving something and being a fan! 

 

[Bradley 59,583]

1 minute ago, Didymus said:

I liked it because it was refreshingly and brutally straightforward But obviously I don't include that under "obvious scrutiny", I was talking about another user that Sara replied to I don't see what you're trying to do here, since you're not in any way talking about what I was actually talking about..

Mess, I actually immediately realized the difference between what you and me were referring to respectively as soon after I posted it. My apologies.  Consider my previous post as an inquiry towards your reason behind liking that controversial statement the other member made, which obviously I decry.

[Didymus 34,380]

Just now, Sara said:

I just want to be careful that we don't define "flop" as a drop in sales, even a big drop.  The Beatles had a big drop in sales in some albums that came after "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band", but those albums contain some of the most iconic songs in Beatles history.  You can't possibly call them flops.  I just refuse to judge music that way.

Well.. then what qualifies as a commercial flop to you?

[Didymus 34,380]

2 minutes ago, Sara said:

Yes, there are some fans to praise Gaga for success and are willing to forgive or overlook failures.  What's wrong with that?  It's just part of loving something and being a fan! 

Well.. the hypocrisy towards other artists is what's wrong with that I think that's fairly obvious. Surely it's possible to be happy for someone's success without feeling the need to stamp on or deny others'

[Sara 1,133]

4 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Well.. then what qualifies as a commercial flop to you?

Well, I'm not sure if I even care about "commercial".  Some of my favorite music is from indie bands that have never charted at all.

But I would consider an album a commercial flop if it LOST money.  Like it sold so poorly that it couldn't even cover the cost of the production and marketing.  That would be a true flop.

[Didymus 34,380]

3 minutes ago, Sara said:

Well, I'm not sure if I even care about "commercial".  Some of my favorite music is from indie bands that have never charted at all.

But I would consider an album a commercial flop if it LOST money.  Like it sold so poorly that it couldn't even cover the cost of the production and marketing. 

Absolutely agreed with the first paragraph.

Second paragraph: that's a legit point of view. Of course it depends on interpretation. For me a 75% decline marks a flop (simply because "decline" doesn't even cover that big of a drop) but it's not emotionally loaded for me. Clearly the word is terribly loaded on this forum though so yeah, it's probably best not to use it when you're just referring to a decline, to put it gently, in sales.

[Sara 1,133]

2 minutes ago, Didymus said:

Well.. the hypocrisy towards other artists is what's wrong with that I think that's fairly obvious. Surely it's possible to be happy for someone's success without feeling the need to stamp on or deny others'

No, I have NEVER defended attacking other artists.   That part of being a fan is bad, I agree.  But simply defending an artist when they make mistakes is fine, because making mistakes is human, and if you aren't willing to make a lot of mistakes then you'll never make a difference.

 

[Sara 1,133]

Also, attacking other artists is not something unique to the Gaga fan base AT ALL.   It's all over the place, and it's sick.  There is even a certain site we all know that is dedicated ENTIRELY to attacking Gaga.  That's absolutely classless and tasteless.

[VenusBlackStar 1,301]

Still getting ARTPOP tattooed on my body somewhere.

[Didymus 34,380]

10 minutes ago, Sara said:

Also, attacking other artists is not something unique to the Gaga fan base AT ALL.   It's all over the place, and it's sick.  There is even a certain site we all know that is dedicated ENTIRELY to attacking Gaga.  That's absolutely classless and tasteless.

True. But didn't you dream that this fanbase would know better since Gaga was so vocal about tolerance and kindness etc.? That's honestly what I thought would happen. But no Gaga's ambivalence doesn't help either.