Madonna + Britney + Gaga & Sexuality - Feminism in Pop

[jojuun 4,159]

So, I often read stuff on here in regards to Madonna and me being an enormous Madonna fan, I'd like to discuss something. A lot of users here (especially younger ones) don't seem to understand why Madonna is who she is and why she remains the most powerful and iconic female artist. Her impact is undeniable but often misunderstood. A lot of people think Madonna was the first woman in mainstream music who used her sex appeal immensely in her music, videos and performances. While that is true to a certain extend, there seems to be a misunderstanding towards that sexiness. Here's why.

When you look at Madonna's many looks, her ever-changing aesthetic and overall career, one thing stands out. She's never, ever played the sex kitten men would want. Even in the very beginning of her career she made it clear she was in charge of everything, including her sex appeal. It was hers to give, and she gave it in order to further her career. Madonna used sex to get what she wanted (more power) but she never dangled it in front of a man order to get with him. He wasn't important, the sex wasn't important. What he could give her was important. If you read any Madonna biography, they all say the same thing. Madonna would flirt with anyone and anything in order to get what she wanted. She even seduced her first manager, a woman. She never slept with her, but she knew the woman was attracted to her and took advantage of it. Madonna had a fling with the DJ who'd introduce her to her first label boss, after she went up to him in a club, kissed him and left her demo tape behind. When she went mainstream, she kept that same formula. Boys wanted to be with her because she was sexy and girls and gays wanted to be her because she oozed power and used her sex appeal to get what wanted. A true femme fatale. No one told her what to do, she told them what to do. For her first MTV VMA performance (at the first VMA's ever by the way), a producer told her what MTV wanted from her. Madonna replied "What MTV wants from me?" and instead told HIM what she wanted from MTV. She took control over the setting, the song choice (they didn't want her to do Like A Virgin) and it became one of the most controversial performances in VMA history. She'd deliver the most controversial one 20 years later with Britney and that infamous kiss. Let's get to Britney for a second. Madonna never enticed her audience in a Britney Spears type of way, see what I mean here? 

While I love Britney a whole lot, her (early) formula, the Lolita vibe, is very submissive. Very girly, very sweet, with just a hint of sl*ttiness sprinkled throughout her image. Just look at Ariana Grande today, who is almost childlike but wears short little skirts and tigh-high boots. The ultimate straight male fantasy. A young, innocent, almost clueless looking girl who's willing (or at least looks like it) to give it up. Let's take a look at Britney's early prime-moments in comparison to Madonna's early prime-moments.



Britney breaks out with BOMT: a 17 year old schoolgirl with pigtails. Classic lolita. Seemingly innocent but not really, a recipe for commercial success.

 

Britney takes it further the next year, the Lolita image is in full force and America goes crazy on both sides. Her fans grow by the day but for the first time, she has critics, who claim it's inappropriate a barely legal girl is mixing childlike imagery (the doll, the bangs, the pink) with a suggestive open top and panties. Britney evolves a little while later and becomes the ultimate sex kitten. Slave 4 U is the start of a whole new Britney era: the sex symbol. The snake is an anaconda, representing the obvious, but it only starts there. She states "I see nothing wrong in spreading myself around". While that could be seen as a feminist statement, it is contradicted with her actual personality. There's a press conference around the time of the Teletubby picture, where Britney claims she wants to be a virgin until she get's married. She dates Justin Timberlake, and they're called America's Sweethearts. Until she allegedly cheats on him. Cry Me A River is born and Britney is slutshamed. She hits back with the only known song to date that she solely wrote, including the chords of the music: Everytime. Innocence prevails once again. She's pictured as the poor megastar that just couldn't be apart from her boyfriend any longer. Then we get to the Madonna kiss, also known as "the kiss of death", as Britney succumbs under the pressure of fame, the paparazzi and the music industry a few years later. What happened after that is not really relevant to this story but she prevailed in the end, sort of.

Anyway, let's look at Madonna's timeline.

 

While arguably also "typically" sexy, Madonna's early look is quite ironic. She's plays and sings about a virgin, but her belt says "boy toy". She's no virgin at all and the message is so transparent, yet the industry and the public fall for it massively. Before the VMA moment even happened (her "big break") she laid down the rules in an interview. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o2FZtMEsn4. "People think that if you are a girl you are going to be a pushover. You're not going to be as strong as a man, getting what you want, demanding what you asked for. I just surprise them and make them realize that they are wrong. And then there's the charms you know, that people always fall for." She plays the bimbo but it's clear she's doing it on purpose, because it gives her power. From the get-go, Madonna has her image and her sexuality in her own hands. There's no difference in her image and in her personality, unlike Britney, who proudly talks about her Christian ideal and moves into the perfect Malibu mansion with her husband Kevin while simulating sex on stage. Even today, Britney often talks about the duality of her pop persona and the "real" Britney. While proudly posing for an Instagram picture in the outfit at first, the lingerie/bathing suit scenes were cut out of Work Bitch because Britney wasn't comfortable with the sexiness. Madonna never had that issue, she filmed the video for Music while pregnant with Rocco, and slapped strippers bums while acting like she was a pimp. Classic Madonna, portraying the things a man would do, but as a female. Even with all the humor and irony being there (she's a pregnant pimp! come on!) people still get worked up over it and another wonderful Madonna controversy is born. 

When you look at both of their primes, it's obvious. One of Madonna's most iconic moments was the Blond Ambition tour. In it, Madonna opened with Express Yourself in which she says "don't go for second best" and her male dancers are pictured as shirtless slave workers next to her. She flexes her muscles in a Jean Paul Gaultier bustier with sharp, pointy breasts. The irony couldn't be more in peoples faces yet few people these days seem to understand what that stood for back in the day, and what that still stands for today. When Madonna simulated masturbation on stage during the Blond Ambition tour, it wasn't to please any man. It proved that she needed no man to reach a sexual climax, she didn't need a man at all in fact, except for when SHE wanted it. SHE was in control, Madonna's sexuality was hers to give, not a man's to take. That's where she differs from 99% of the pop girls, even the current ones. 

When Madonna does sexy, it is not typically sexy. She's always pushed that boundary and is a feminist icon because of it. There's only two current popstars who seem to understand that principle and have nodded to Madonna's statement and work. Beyoncé and... Gaga. In the early days, especially 2009, Gaga stood for the exact same thing. I remember the interview in the purple wig in Norway (or some other Scandinavian country) where she slayed the sexist questions of the journalist. But as that early confidence slipped away, with what we can now clearly say was depression, so did that message. When Gaga slips on plunging neckline these days (hello last Grammy's), it doesn't really feel like the same Gaga. That "power thing" is gone. It's an unpopular opinion I know because yes, she was gorgeous that evening and yes, she slayed. But there was no defending that dress. When Madonna showed her ass on that same red carpet, there was something behind it. She's now known as the pop mother who won't stop showing her ass at nearly 60. But we all love Iggy Pop, Prince and Mick Jagger who all talk about sex, go shirtless and bang 25 year olds. One again, Madonna shoves the world's sexist, macho, chauvinist ways right back into our faces. Gaga just looked gorgeous. Even Madonna's "prettier" moments always had a message to them. When she did the whole Marilyn Monroe vibe she stated "I don't think I'm like Marilyn Monroe, I will never be a victim. She's a beauty icon, but I think I'm way stronger." Madonna never let it get to her head. She never caved under the pressure of fame and to "look hot". Gaga has on a few occasions and it's quite sad to me. I miss strong, feminist Gaga. Even if she didn't realize it, she said in she wouldn't consider herself a feminist because she "hails men". Which is totally not what feminism is about and it's sad because if you read Gaga's college papers, it's clear she's very much capable of understanding social issues like this.

With Beyoncé, she grew into it. While she started out with a similar Lolita image, she grew into a power house and a sexual being all of her own. Her lolita vibe was played upon being the sexy black girl, something exotic to be adored. I love her first album, but when you compare it's lyrics to those of today, it's a complete 360°. I think she would rather slit a wrist than sing Daddy or Cater 2 U again. Beyoncé seems to be the only one who "gets" it. It happened later on in her career, but at least it happened. Gaga had it from the start, but in all of the hip/Troy/depression, it got sort of lost. Gaga doesn't seem to interested in making those statements anymore, which is why I'm both curious and anxious for LG5. What is it gonna be? Will she slip on pretty dresses and deliver a GP friendly image? "Typical" pop sexy? Or will she wear gowns and show of the vocals? Or will she go back to the powerhouse she used to be, demanding what she asked for? Was that Madonna-like quality in her back in the day even authentic? Or was it a cleverly borrowed technique? 

Does anyone catch my drift here?

[joemayzzin 3,857]

really like your descriptions of everything Madonna and I agree with everything you said, i grew up listening to Madonna and Britney because they were still a "new" and "evolving" artists when I was very young (Britney more Madonna - I was born in 1989 when express yourself and vogue were in full control of the pop world). I appreciate everything Madonna has done because she did what she wanted and i have nothing but respect for that. Some people see past that when it comes to the comparisons but what you said is very accurate! I love Gaga, Madonna and Britney a lot and they did show me a different side of myself to the point where i could be confident and not care what others think if i wanted to truly be myself weather it was feeling sexy or just marching to the beat of my own drum at a young age and even now at 26 years old. I for one think they are 3 completely different artist in their own right but that just me. I'm not going to lie when is say I lean more towards Gaga now but here and there I still love to listen to a Madonna & Britney track because I live for the music not the politics of the comparissons or bashing. 

[Higher 2,406]

I'm sorry, but this pic had me in tears. 

 

 

[jojuun 4,159]

Just now, Oyster Baby said:

I'm sorry, but this pic had me in tears. 

Why? Because she has more muscles than the average male popstar of today? Or because she was performing the most iconic pop tour of all time when the picture was taken? Is it not stereotypically "pretty" enough for you? Have you even read my post? Gurl, bye.

[Sizzily 14,543]

Coolio.

[GloZell Green 11,723]

I think Gaga is going back to the fashion statements. The thing that makes stars like Madonna, Britney, Gaga etc. different is the ability to have completely different looks but still rock them. Though I feel like Britney is toning down herself because of women being called sl*ts and wh*res by the GP. But I'm hoping they'll keep their styles and create a new statement line the cone bra, snake, meat dress, etc. And I also feel like they express their album and feeling in fashion as well as performances and videos. It's really something only a select few an pull off  Though each are known as sex symbols in their distinct way, as you described.

[Higher 2,406]

3 minutes ago, jojuun said:

Why? Because she has more muscles than the average male popstar of today? Or because she was performing the most iconic pop tour of all time when the picture was taken? Is it not stereotypically "pretty" enough for you? Have you even read my post? Gurl, bye.

You mad?

There was no ill intent when I posted that, but if you wish to over react on a harmless comment then that's your issue.

 

 

[Bebe 16,807]

I agree with most of this, but I think you sort of missed the strange and different sexuality that Gaga brought to the pop world. 

Gaga's sexuality seemed to bypass the male gaze all together. Unlike Britney who was often the focus of such a gaze or Madonna who occasionally used the male gaze to her advantage.

Compare Express Yourself to Alejandro:

In this video Madonna dresses in Drag, with her bra showing in a way that is still attractive to men. She loses her kitty and a strong male worker finds it and brings it to her. He enters her room and she is completely naked and they make love. Madonna exploited the male gaze — even when she was subverting it.
 

 

Alejandro was clearly inspired by Madonna's work, including Express Yourself but it has it's differences in the way Gaga portrays her sexuality. She gazes upon the men working while smoking a pipe and completely dressed. The men in these videos are, according to Gaga, supposed to represent the gay men in her life and how she can’t have sex with her gay male lovers. Even while in her underwear straddling them, she is not appealing to them and her look isn't very "sexy" it's strange. When Gaga dresses in a form of drag in this video, it's without the bra popping out. It's not a look that is supposed to be appealing to the heterosexual man watching.

In “Alejandro”, Gaga creates and recreates her own (queer) gaze, her own sexuality, her own sexyness, which may or may not be appealing to the sensibilities of straight men at large.

You can also see this in Gaga's other work.

In Born This Way she has aggressive strong choreography while in her underwear rather than a sexy dance, she has horns on her face and body and she has an orgy in slime. This is not sex portrayed for the heterosexual gaze, this is a tattoo endorned, aggressive woman with horns on her face and body.

In You and I she portrays the mermaid, a creature typically known for it's beauty and deadly seductive abilities, she subverts this image with a chain smoking mermaid with short teal hair, gills on her face, a black tail and scaly tits.

The way Gaga has used sexuality is very interesting and very different to Britney and Madonna before her.

I don't mind Gaga dressing glamourous and sexy on occasion like she did with Tony at the Grammys. That to me may be different from her past portrayals of sexuality but it doesn't make it any less authentic or contradictory. Gaga is in many ways about what SHE finds beautiful or attractive. Maybe that sometimes matches up with what men believe to be beautiful or attractive, but frankly that's not the point. A pretty dress doesn't mean she isn't a feminist any more, it doesn't mean she can't explore sexuality in an interesting way.

Even with the Grammy dress, yes it was sexy and a pretty dress BUT it was still very Gaga. She matched the dress with silvery grey hair. It was sexy, and yes it may have definitely appealed to the straight man but it was still on her terms.

 

You can find lots of pictures of Madonna in a pretty, glamorous dress.

 

So I'm not sure what the fuss is over Gaga's glamorous looks tbh

 

 

 

 

 

[latina twilight 2,319]

I love you so much for this.

Madonna is considered a legend not only for her record sales or her multiple awards, but mainly because she was different then and is different now, even with the young ones who don't seem to fully understand her and think she is basic or an old attetion seeker.

I wish I lived when she came to the scene. Staning for Gaga I understood that these differences and statements are what made love her, so I'm pretty sure that at that time I would love Madonna as much as I love Gaga now (if you got what I'm saying).

This is the kind of comparissons that people should be talking about, not the costumes or makeup, or song instrumentals, but their power and their brave.

[Andres Miller 205]

I feel a tad bit of bias in your post, but then again it is your opinion. However, if you've been paying attention to Gaga as much as you have Madonna, she has always reclaimed her sexuality, image, and artistic expression. Always. I mean, look at all of the images during the BTW era and ARTPOP era. Even if it seems as though she is "slipping" at times, Gaga, like Madonna, has her image and sexuality in her own hands and perhaps she is using it to her advantage. Or can only Madonna do that? Gaga is an incredibly intelligent artist and the grasp she has on her career, sexuality, expression, and image blows me--and I'm sure other people--completely out of the water. Call me delusional but I personally believe that by the time Gaga's career comes to a close (death), if she does the right moves, she'll have had such an impact on artists and the entertainment industry that she'll be revered and venerated in a similar fashion that MJ, Madonna (I hate to use those examples only) or any other legend is but in a completely new way that has yet to be seen because of the digital age. 

 

“When Lady Gaga wears machine guns on her breast and is shooting fire from her crotch, she is not dressing for the male gaze. She has turned her anatomy into weapons. When she sings about sex in her songs, she turns submissiveness into a declaration of power—she is not a delicate flower to be picked. She growls and snorts and oinks like a swine, screams and howls like a banshee. Not only does she refuse to allow the male gaze to to shape her work, she rebels against it. Most importantly, Gaga eradicates the male Gaze by making it irrelevant. When she wears 18-inch armadillo heels, high-fashion couture, make-up smeared all over her face and three wigs on top of each other, she is not transforming herself into something beautiful. She isn’t trying to turn you on. She is trying to repulse you. If or if not your **** gets hard looking at her is irrelevant to her and she’s stripping you of your innate and privileged power, while also reclaiming hers.”

[Nino 12]

Your image of Britney as presented in your post is stupid to the point of being offensive. Britney never had a sexually submissive image, people misunderstood Baby One More Time and the lolita image and what Britney Spears was going for, that's why only one year into her career she released Oops I Did I Again. The lyrics are DIRECTLY about her media image and how her off-stage innocent girl next door image is just another seduction tactic to get her what she wants. There's something sexually tempting about the good christian girl next door. It's a direct parallel to Madonna's virgin blonde bride fantasy. Britney just presented a deeper, more refined version of that persona.

Britney plays off this kind of feminist sexuality countless times in her career, even before Madonna supposedly magical kiss with Britney.

Here we see an innocent Spears acting helplessly in love with some guy and wanting desperately to have sex with him "You're a sexy guy, I'm a nice girl" untill the chorus when she reveals the innocent good girl attitude was just to seduce the boys in question. "Boys... When a girl is with one she is in control"

 

Surely you've seen this iconic video before, but you obviously never considered quite what it means. She's going off on her own and being unashamed of and completely in control of her sexuality.Britney's exploring her sexuality without apology or without casting herself as a *****.

I don't know whether you're too inept to understand Britney Spears or whether it's just willfull ignorance to make Madonna look better but even M herself stated that Britney's image and art is extremely reminiscent of her early work. You can't entirely label it as Madonna's impact either because even in the early 2000s sexuality being presented this way was STILL not the norm, as demonstrated by Christina and Bryonce's early work being obviously misogynistic in the way their sexuality was presented. Britney was still a trailblazer in her own time and was working for the exact same things Madonna had been all those years ago. Just because the woman isn't too bright doesn't mean that her art was completely meaningless and unintelligent (at least before 2010, but that doesnt count because Britney hasnt had much of a hand in anything relating to hwr career recently)

 

 

You also butchered your interpretation of Lady Gaga to a similar degree but others have already cleaned up that mess.  

 

[mmm 879]

So being feminine and attractive is now a bad thing? and whats wrong with wanting to attract men? men always try to attract women without feeling they are doing anything wrong! Do you want women to always have pink hair and hairy armpits with period running down their legs and act very vulgar to be a feminist? its crazy how you think that Gaga is less of a feminist because she looks beautiful.. Gaga said she dresses more beautiful because shes in love with her man and its her man that made her feel this way witch I know you hate

[Katharine Hepburn 4,607]

At the end of the day feminism is about choice. If gaga chooses to wear nice clothes because she chooses to she's not being hypocritical because she's chosen it. 

[StrawberryBlond 14,101]

I think your views of Madonna's intentions are quite biased and rose-tinted. Honestly, apart from maybe her muscley arms, I can't think of any moment where Madonna was trying to be unappealing to the male gaze. You don't seem to say anything about her Erotica era, back when she was semi naked in lacy lingerie, with blonde curls, red lipstick and big bedroom eyes. She made videos where intercourse was depicted, did sex scenes in movies and released a book of her in sexually explicit situations. What part of this is unappealing to men? What part of this isn't doing what men expect of women? You do realise that in 1992, Madonna was considered the hottest human alive, right? You'd never see Madonna with prothestic horns or an oversized mole on her face, she never went to truly alternative looks that turned people off like Gaga does. But if she really was trying to appeal to men, I don't see anything wrong with that as long as she was applying talent to her art. Yes, she did "use" people a lot to get what she wanted, but maybe it was because she was merely a sexual person? You may have a deep interpretation of what she meant by simulating masturbation on stage but I always just saw it as a sexual being doing what came naturally to her and being such an exhibitionist, she thought everyone else would like to see it. Do you ever consider that she did these things for no deeper reason other than she just wanted to? It doesn't really matter what her intention behind doing this was, the fact is that men would like it and they did. So, it played into male fantasises regardless.

As for Britney, I think she wasn't as reluctant to be sexual as you may think. I read an old interview from the photographer, David LaChapelle, who witnessed that shoot that you posted about. He said that her manager came into the room when her shirt was half open and said "What are you guys doing?" and Britney said "Yeah, I don't feel comfortable." But once he left the room, she completely unbuttoned the shirt and they continued. So, maybe she wanted to be sexual more than you think. And like Nino posted, she owned her adult sexuality very powerfully from 2001 onwards, with a lot less submissive lyrics. Slave 4 U was always one of my favourite Britney songs and I actually liked it even more as i got older because I think it describes me very well. She says she doesn't want to be treated like a little girl, that she wants to enter the adult world and doesn't see why she shouldn't. And that she feels like giving in to a guy that makes her feel good. Notice that she says "I'm a slave...for you." She's saying she'll only let herself go for this one man that meets her standards, she won't give it up to any old guy.

I disagree about Beyonce being some sort of feminist icon. I'm part of that group who thinks she doesn't really know what feminism is all about, she understands it only in a superficial form andmisinterprets some of it, giving mixed messages. I still think some of her work is just as submissive as some of her older stuff, actually the most submissive its ever been. She has a song called Dance For You and sings about having nothing if she doesn't have her man in 1+1. Her overtly sexual stuff like Blow and Partition don't need explaining. I don't have a problem with her doing this, her sexual tunes are some of my favourites, but I've always put her down as someone who really tries to please a man at the expense of her own happiness. She's been with Jay all these years despite numerous cheating rumours and Liftgate. She sings about being suspicious of him and thinking about break ups in Jealous, but reverts back to being submissive to him in Partition. Her feelings about how to deal with mistrust is unclear.

Like Fays1 said, I don't see what's so wrong with women wanting to be attractive to men. It doesn't mean that they're not a feminist. Some feminsts like to look beautiful, others don't, some feminists like to have a man in their life, others don't. And so on and so forth. As long as a woman makes the choice to do these things, she's being a feminist. We're complex creatures, we have multiple sides to ourselves and to our sexuality. That's why sometimes Gaga appears weird sexy and the next day, she's mainstream sexy. Different looks for different moods. Why should we only exhibit one personality trait and one look constantly? There seems to be a dislike towards women who want to be traditionally sexual and want to attract men these days. Like they're letting feminists down. But if she wants to do it, what's the problem? I like to look pretty, I want to attract men, I have fantasises about being submissive to men, but it's always on my terms. I only dress in a way that I find attractive, first and foremost, and I don't care how hot a guy finds a certain look, if I don't like it, I won't adapt to it. I'm fine with the concept of giving men pleasure but only if it's in a way that sits right with me. I won't do something I've got reservations about just because that's what he wants. By the way, sex is a two-way street - you should want to give each other pleasure. I see it as frankly selfish, not admirable, to treat sex like a way to satisfy yourself alone. It defeats the whole point of it. We've criticised men who take this attitude towards sex for years - why should we praise women for it? If a woman chooses to be submissive, well, she can't be all that submissive, can she? I find that a lot of men like a woman who's submissive but confident with it because they find nothing more attractive than a woman who wants sex as much as they do.

And by the way, there's all different types of men. Some men don't like submissive women and want the exact opposite - to be whipped by a dominatrix. Some men don't like overly glamorous and made-up women - they prefer a beautifully imperfect "real" woman. Some men don't like slim women - they want curvy women. Some men don't like overly sexual women - they prefer an ordinary women who's got more interests than sex. When we talk about the "male gaze," it is very generalised and men are a lot more complex than we're led to believe. You'd be surprised how many straight men find overtly sexual performances from women to be trashy - they'd be fine with it in the privacy of their own bedroom but seeing a woman putting it out there for all to see is off-putting to them.