Turkey: Accepting Armenian genocide is racist from Europe

[AlphaMonster 1,806]

Now it all makes sense. That's why also some other countries refuse to recognize or even apologize for massacres in their (more recent) past, which could also be genocides. But no one is pressuring them. Very interesting.

Most people do not have substantiated info about the topic, has an idea about it. It is one of the biggest problem's of the world, people are always thinking that they know something instead of learning it by researching it from various resources, because every resource can be subjective when it comes to history, so it is better to see it from both sides.

Just to clarify, I do not claim that genocide did or did not happen. I just tried to change the perspective of people who only see the issue from marketed political point of view which is very romanticized with emotions, and humanly feelings, but such point of view totally disregards economical, political, strategical consequences of it.

[lego 44,165]

Most people do not have substantiated info about the topic, has an idea about it. It is one of the biggest problem's of the world, people are always thinking that they know something instead of learning it by researching it from various resources, because every resource can be subjective when it comes to history, so it is better to see it from both sides.

Just to clarify, I do not claim that genocide did or did not happen. I just tried to change the perspective of people who only see the issue from marketed political point of view which is very romanticized with emotions, and humanly feelings, but such point of view totally disregards economical, political, strategical consequences of it.

Thank you for expanding my knowledge. I never knew much about it, so I never had a clear stance on it.

Now that I think about it, Ottoman Empire and present day Turkey are not really the same, would present day Italy or Greece be held responsible for crimes under Roman and Byzantine empire? 

[AlphaMonster 1,806]

Thank you for expanding my knowledge. I never knew much about it, so I never had a clear stance on it.

Now that I think about it, Ottoman Empire and present day Turkey are not really the same, would present day Italy or Greece be held responsible for crimes under Roman and Byzantine empire? 

​I thank you for your kind words... 

They are really not the same. Ottoman Empire is historically predecessor of Turkey just like Byzantium Empire is to Greece. But the important point is that Turks were not decision takers but the Ottoman Dynasty; in Monarchies, people who are from the same race with the dynasty might simply be accepted as higher class of slave but still a slave, they have to obey sultan/emperor/king or whomever the authority is. 

[Goosey 3,017]

What you go through is called dunning-kruger effect. Let me tell you, you don't know anything, but you think you do, which makes you be unaware of your incapability in such topic. 

1-  "I don't know why they are in denial." This sentence declares that you do not know anything about the issue yet still have an idea; also your brain is incapable of establishing interrelations among real consequences of an action, claimed consequences of an action, and how people markets the appeal of action by romanticizing it ,by boosting emotions in it. Real consequence might require reparation, claimed consequence will bring the peace, armenia markets "Turkey's recognizing genocide" by romanticizing it like "Justice will be secured","Our pain will be recognized.". While one who knows a little history would easily see that it is about money, but everybody uses their own psychological war technics, and ones ,who do not know anything profound like you, get easily affected by such strategies, and just have gibberish unsubstantiated opinions on such issues. Don't get me wrong, there also Turks just like you who think there is no possibility that Ottoman Empire did a genocide.. Only difference between you and them is that you were manipulated towards the two opposite paths.

Sorry hun, but it's genocide. The inventor of the word "genocide" said it was a genocide. How do you get any more clear than that?

 

And yes, I'm aware of why they don't want to admit it. Doesn't change the fact there was a genocide. 

​

[RainingOnMe 7,280]

Anyone that denies the Armenian genocide is a monster. I watched a documentary on it and I cried. A 102 year-old woman was speaking and she was crying and it just killed me to watch that. She said she remembered how the Turks raped her friends, killed her parents for their money, and so much more. :( 

[AlphaMonster 1,806]

And yes, I'm aware of why they don't want to admit it.

First of all, I did not say that genocide did not happen. I said that I am not a historian, I can have my opinion, I can't state it as if it is a fact. Plus, I did not even express my opinion, I said genocide might or might not have happened ...

And also, the fact that he invented the word does not make him the expert about Turkish-Armenian issue. I do not know what distorted logic you follow...

Genocide has to be based on irrational/one-sided attacks to group of people who are from the same race. https://www.facebook.com/factcheckarmenia/videos/780885798627271/ Turkish argument tells that Armenians killed Turks in rural areas, attacked to Ottoman Army. Do you have a proof that shows that Armenians/Hunchakians did not do it ??? Obviously no, because you are not a historian, more importantly you do not even have access to valuable, credible historical sources. 

If you wonder here's my opinion: 

1- A big number of armenians attacked to Turkish villagers, and to Ottoman Armies with the motivation of gaining independence. This is a statement, not a claim, there are many proofs. 

2- Ottoman Authorities ordered Armenians to go to death march, basically massacred them. Problem here is that state did not differentiate between innocent armenians, and armenians who sabotaged Ottoman Empire during WW1. Only proof is that Ottomans sent a big number of armenians to death march.

3- I believe that only motivation of Ottoman Empire held while sending them to death march was not Armenian's sabotaging Ottoman Empire but pan-turkist ideas they held. Before WW1, Islamic countries rejected jihad call of Ottoman Sultan who was also caliph.(Islamic equivalent of Pope)(The title caliph was abolished by Republic of Turkey in 1924 due because Turkey is founded as a laic country.) After seeing that religious bonds are not important anymore, Ottoman became more nationalist, and adopted the idea of Pan-Turkism that aims to unite all Turk/Turkic states of central asia.

4- I think the issue cannot be defined as totally innocent or totally genocide. Only think we can be sure of is that a group of Armenians sabotaged Ottoman Empire from inside, and Ottoman Empire massacred them. To sum up again : 

4a- Why not totally innocent ? Because I believe that what Ottoman did was not only self-defense but they wanted to achieve their pan-turkist ideal, and tried to get rid of armenian population who lives between Eastern European Turkish Territories and Central Asian Turkic Territories. 

4b- Why not totally genocide ? Because a big number of Armenians sabotaged Ottoman Empire from inside. Self-Defense is not classified as genocide ! Genocide has to be systematic destruction of a race; in case of self-defense, it is not defined as systematic !

5- Why are we not able to solve the problem? Armenia is not opening its historical archives which is a sign that they are hiding something. Turkey suggested Armenia for a group of Turkish,Armenian and Foreign historians to research in both countries' historical archives, and Turkey opened its own historical archives, but Armenia refused to open its historical archives like they were hiding something. 

6- Why is this topic actually not relevant to Republic of Turkey, and to Turkish Citizens ? Massacred was ordered by Sultan on the behalf of Committee of Union and Progress(who gained powers with a coup/revolt) !!! Even if we assume that Ottoman Empire did genocide, no country was held responsible for any sort of war crimes that their predecessor monarch did. Asking Turkey to recognize genocide, and pay reparation is just like asking Greece to pay money for something Byzantium Empire did. Turks were neither decision takers in Ottoman Empire, nor chose the Monarch. Turks did not have more power than armenians in administration of Ottoman Empire. In Nazi Example, german citizens voted for Nazis which justifies their paying reparation. 

 

[Goosey 3,017]

If you wonder here's my opinion: 

1- A big number of armenians attacked to Turkish villagers, and to Ottoman Armies with the motivation of gaining independence. This is a statement, not a claim, there are many proofs. 

2- Ottoman Authorities ordered Armenians to go to death march, basically massacred them. Problem here is that state did not differentiate between innocent armenians, and armenians who sabotaged Ottoman Empire during WW1. Only proof is that Ottomans sent a big number of armenians to death march.

3- I believe that only motivation of Ottoman Empire held while sending them to death march was not Armenian's sabotaging Ottoman Empire but pan-turkist ideas they held. Before WW1, Islamic countries rejected jihad call of Ottoman Sultan who was also caliph.(Islamic equivalent of Pope)(The title caliph was abolished by Republic of Turkey in 1924 due because Turkey is founded as a laic country.) After seeing that religious bonds are not important anymore, Ottoman became more nationalist, and adopted the idea of Pan-Turkism that aims to unite all Turk/Turkic states of central asia.

4- I think the issue cannot be defined as totally innocent or totally genocide. Only think we can be sure of is that a group of Armenians sabotaged Ottoman Empire from inside, and Ottoman Empire massacred them. To sum up again : 

4a- Why not totally innocent ? Because I believe that what Ottoman did was not only self-defense but they wanted to achieve their pan-turkist ideal, and tried to get rid of armenian population who lives between Eastern European Turkish Territories and Central Asian Turkic Territories. 

4b- Why not totally genocide ? Because a big number of Armenians sabotaged Ottoman Empire from inside. Self-Defense is not classified as genocide ! Genocide has to be systematic destruction of a race; in case of self-defense, it is not defined as systematic !

5- Why are we not able to solve the problem? Armenia is not opening its historical archives which is a sign that they are hiding something. Turkey suggested Armenia for a group of Turkish,Armenian and Foreign historians to research in both countries' historical archives, and Turkey opened its own historical archives, but Armenia refused to open its historical archives like they were hiding something. 

6- Why is this topic actually not relevant to Republic of Turkey, and to Turkish Citizens ? Massacred was ordered by Sultan on the behalf of Committee of Union and Progress(who gained powers with a coup/revolt) !!! Even if we assume that Ottoman Empire did genocide, no country was held responsible for any sort of war crimes that their predecessor monarch did. Asking Turkey to recognize genocide, and pay reparation is just like asking Greece to pay money for something Byzantium Empire did. Turks were neither decision takers in Ottoman Empire, nor chose the Monarch. Turks did not have more power than armenians in administration of Ottoman Empire. In Nazi Example, german citizens voted for Nazis which justifies their paying reparation. 

 

​It's not "self-defence" to kill 1.5 million men, woman and children, it's the definition of genocide. You are really trying it. In fact in many countries denying the Armenian genocide is a crime :nails: as for "not opening historical archives", neither is Turkey, they deny scholars access to the full Ottoman archives. Hmmm, I wonder why. Maybe for the same reason the Turks have jailed academics who talk about it... 

 

[GHGUY 230]

First of all, I am going to talk from monetary perspective, because we all know that what matters in world's politics is always money. Reason why Armenia tries so hard for Turkey to recognize genocide is reparation money, and the reason why Turkey 100% denies genocide is also because Turkey does not want to reparations.

​Here my valid arguments:

- "Genocide" was executed upon orders of a monarch, and a sort of political party who took over some powers with coup in ottoman empire. The both authorities were never chosen by citizens. While Republic of Turkey is a parliamentary democracy, constitutionally different country. This is an important point, because no country paid reparations to other countries for genocides or other war crimes happened in imperial period. For example: Germany's citizens chose Hitler's party democratically.

- Turkey is willing historians from both country to discuss the issue for years. Turkey also opened up all of his historical archives about so-called genocide; but Armenia opened neither their historical archives about it, nor took any step for historians to talk about it objectively. There are so many historians in Turkey who recognizes Genocide too. 

- Turkey simply does not give a ****. I don't understand people saying Turkey is delusional about it, no baby girl you are too innocent for this! This is politics, and it is all about money... If there was no such possibility of Turkey's paying reparation, no one would even discuss the issue. No one cares if Turkey recognizes it or not, why any country would like whole world to know that they were massacred by some other country in the past, how weak they were, they would not, if it was not for money.

- Turkey is a G-20 country, has one of the most rapidly growing economies in the world, and 2nd biggest army power in NATO, and supported by USA all the time because ,with Israel, Turkey is the only country which can take legit stance against Iran in war conditions in middle east. And also Turkey is only mostly muslim populated laic country in the world, has a cultural dominance over the eastern europe( old Ottoman Empire territories) ,given the fact that even some most popular TV shows in Eastern Europe are mostly Turkish Shows such as "Magnificent Century". In the end, Turkey holds x30 more strategical powers than Armenia. It especially became lot harder to force Turkey to recognize the genocide (pay reparations) since Turkey lost its interest in becoming a part of EU due to economical recession of eurozone. (Gave so much info, 'cause y'all americans mostly don't **** except hitler, france, WWII, USSR )

- And last but not least, I personally do not know if a genocide happened ... I am not a historian, we knew there was a massacre, but is it enough to call it a genocide ? We are ordinary people with no deep understanding of history, and no time to go through huge historical archives, to conclude something clearly. It should be up to historians to discuss it. There are evidences in favor of both countries. You all seem to know Armenian argument, so Watch this, Turkish Argument: https://www.facebook.com/factcheckarmenia/videos/780885798627271/ . 

- And also, there is no seeming racism against Armenia in Turkey now (at least in Istanbul), despite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Secret_Army_for_the_Liberation_of_Armenia (ASALA), or System of a Down who always found an orgasmic pleasure in constantly saying that Turks are killers, liars etc. (lol at them, what type of people thinks that people from one nation can all be the same) In Istanbul, Armenians even have their own missionary schools... Most armenians do not go to them tho; 6 people from my class in high school were armenians.

1.5 million Armenians were systematically killed... It was a genocide and no Armenians wants more than just money in reparations... They want recognition of an even that actually happened and the fact that America refuses to acknowledge it is disgusting just because of relations they hold with Turkey.... The Armenian Genocide was the first Genocide of the 20th Century.... Had it been recognized then it could have stopped other mass killings/Genocides just decades later... One of which being the Holocaust. 

 

Hitler has a quote when convincing the Nazi's to kill the Jews saying something along the lines of "who remembers the massacre of the Armenians"

 

 

because the Ottoman Turks got away with the killing of a whole people it led others to believe they could get away with Genocides too... Thus the Holocaust, the genocides in Rwanda, Darfur, etc

[Luc 4,776]

Thank you for expanding my knowledge. I never knew much about it, so I never had a clear stance on it.

Now that I think about it, Ottoman Empire and present day Turkey are not really the same, would present day Italy or Greece be held responsible for crimes under Roman and Byzantine empire? 

Ofcourse you can't hold people responsible for things that happened 100 years ago. I just want the rest of the world and Turkey to recognize it. If it's all about the money, I do understand, but then they should make sure they won't have to pay a thing.

I'll still call it a genocide though. There's enough proof for that, considering over 500000 Armenians got killed. The goal was to kill all Armenians.

[Luc 4,776]

1.5 million Armenians were systematically killed... It was a genocide and no Armenians wants more than just money in reparations... They want recognition of an even that actually happened and the fact that America refuses to acknowledge it is disgusting just because of relations they hold with Turkey.... The Armenian Genocide was the first Genocide of the 20th Century.... Had it been recognized then it could have stopped other mass killings/Genocides just decades later... One of which being the Holocaust. 

 

Hitler has a quote when convincing the Nazi's to kill the Jews saying something along the lines of "who remembers the massacre of the Armenians"

 

 

because the Ottoman Turks got away with the killing of a whole people it led others to believe they could get away with Genocides too... Thus the Holocaust, the genocides in Rwanda, Darfur, etc

Now I wouldn't go as far as to say that the Armenian genocide is the cause for all other genocides afterwards. But it's delusional to call it 'self-defense'. And by the way, Turkey doesn't open many of its archives either.

 

The real problem here is that Turkish people are too nationalist to admit a thing like that  If its all about money, why would most Turks not accept it, even if it's not with money or strategy involved?

[Melech 9,900]

Thank you for expanding my knowledge. I never knew much about it, so I never had a clear stance on it.

Now that I think about it, Ottoman Empire and present day Turkey are not really the same, would present day Italy or Greece be held responsible for crimes under Roman and Byzantine empire? 

​Well present day Germany is held responsible for the horrible genocide of 6 millions Jews and millions of other minorities. 

Turkey did a genocide. Germany did a genocide. And both have the duty today to not forget to prevent future genocides, to know what horrible things can be done by humans to other human. Germany did not forget, Turkey did. 

[AlphaMonster 1,806]

1.5 million Armenians were systematically killed... It was a genocide and no Armenians wants more than just money in reparations... They want recognition of an even that actually happened and the fact that America refuses to acknowledge it is disgusting just because of relations they hold with Turkey.... The Armenian Genocide was the first Genocide of the 20th Century.... Had it been recognized then it could have stopped other mass killings/Genocides just decades later... One of which being the Holocaust. 

 

Hitler has a quote when convincing the Nazi's to kill the Jews saying something along the lines of "who remembers the massacre of the Armenians"

 

 

because the Ottoman Turks got away with the killing of a whole people it led others to believe they could get away with Genocides too... Thus the Holocaust, the genocides in Rwanda, Darfur, etc

​Okay if you think so, you should an answer to every question I ask now. 

1- https://www.facebook.com/factcheckarmenia/videos/780885798627271/ This video contains turkish arguments about "genocide". It is proven that during WW1, some Armenians sabotaged Ottoman Army from inside, killed villagers. Turkish argument says that it was self-defense with proofs. Do you have any proofs that show that all these arguments are false ? 

2- Massacre was ordered by Monarch. Ottoman Empire ! It was an empire, turkish population had obligation to follow orders of Monarch just like Armenians. In Nazi Germany, Hitler was elected to parliament, he came to power with democratic methods, germans voted for him, while Turks did not choose their Monarch. Let's assume that it is proved that Ottoman did genocide. Can you give me an example for a case that successor republic paid reparation and took responsibility for war crimes which predecessor Monarchy committed ? (There is no such example.)

3- There is no answer to the question I asked in <2)>. No Republic paid reparations for war crimes of a Monarch. But Let's assume that there were such examples (I multiplied impossible with impossible). Turks in Ottoman Empire were slaves just like armenians just like all other citizens, since it was a Monarchy, no citizen had a chance to question orders of Monarch. Why would citizens of Republic of Turkey would pay money for something that they did not do ?

4- While Turkey already opened its own historical archives about the issue, Armenia still refuses to do. Turkey even proposed Armenia to let chosen group historians consisting of same number of Turkish, Armenian, and Foreign Historians to research Turkish and Armenian Archives about genocide claims, just like Armenia refused to open its archives, they refused this offer so many times too. Why do you think that a country would avoid opening its historical archives about an issue which they believe that they're right ?

[AlphaMonster 1,806]

​Well present day Germany is held responsible for the horrible genocide of 6 millions Jews and millions of other minorities. 

Turkey did a genocide. Germany did a genocide. And both have the duty today to not forget to prevent future genocides, to know what horrible things can be done by humans to other human. Germany did not forget, Turkey did. 

I believe what happened was horrible too.​ But did you read what I wrote? These parts might be relevant to what you just said ? 

- "Genocide" was executed upon orders of a monarch, and of Committee of Union and Progress
 who took over some powers with coup in ottoman empire. The both authorities were never chosen by citizens. Republic of Turkey is a parliamentary democracy, and a constitutionally different country. This is an important point, Turks in Ottoman Empire were slaves just like armenians just like all other citizens, since it was a Monarchy, no citizen had a chance to question orders of Monarch. Contrary to this, Germany's citizens chose Hitler's party democratically.

- Even if we assume that massacre was a genocide (which are politically very different terms): There is no example for a case that successor republic paid reparation and was held responsible for war crimes which predecessor Monarchy committed ? 

[YCHofficial 5,293]

Turkey... y u make it so hard for yourself... its not like the current Turkey did it... Just like the current Germany didnt kill all those jews back in WW2

[Melech 9,900]

I believe what happened was horrible too.​ But did you read what I wrote? These parts might be relevant to what you just said ? 

- "Genocide" was executed upon orders of a monarch, and of Committee of Union and Progress
 who took over some powers with coup in ottoman empire. The both authorities were never chosen by citizens. Republic of Turkey is a parliamentary democracy, and a constitutionally different country. This is an important point, Turks in Ottoman Empire were slaves just like armenians just like all other citizens, since it was a Monarchy, no citizen had a chance to question orders of Monarch. Contrary to this, Germany's citizens chose Hitler's party democratically.

- Even if we assume that massacre was a genocide (which are politically very different terms): There is no example for a case that successor republic paid reparation and was held responsible for war crimes which predecessor Monarchy committed ? 

​No body is giving Turks today any fault to that genocide. The only thing that they need to accept that the Ottoman empire did an genocide. Its not that difficult. 

I personally don't know if Turkey should pay etc. but I want that Turkey finally accept that there was a genocide. 

Also Hitler was elected but later made a illegally a dictatorship