Heated Debate Over Radical Islam

[Hot Space 14]

yup. people are so quick to applaud the first person who crassly shouts MAN THATS SO RACIST U R FOCKING ASSHOLES JUST ADMIT IT STR8 UP UR A RACIST THATS BULLSHT as if they're actually defending people from people in klan robes or something. what they don't realise is that people like ben in this video are the real ones causing the harm because they encourage complacency and indifference to a growing and violent movement. it doesn't matter that without the geopolitics and foreign policy which as sam mentioned in the video, large numbers of these people hold warped views about women and gays and other minorities and are actively oppressing them and carrying out punishments (sometimes capital) against them. all completely nothing to do with the big bad western imperialist forces. but of course even what muslims have to say or do about their own religion doesn't seem to matter to some. we just don't get it, apparently.

Sam even says in the video "we're criticising ideas not people" but because ben can't shut his mouth for 5 seconds nobody heard it.

it's just frustrating that so many people don't want to have these discussions. silencing differing/unpopular opinions is such a problem right now

[MahoganySnitch 67]

criticizing ideas and not people is necessary, but sometimes the lines blur. There are real consequences of inflating radical Islam with every single Muslim, and even non-Muslims like Sikhs who have been treated like s%it because they look "like them." 

 

And what Ben said at the end is true, I feel: if Filipinos were taking people captive and using them as slaves, you don't go after the Filipino kid on the street as if he was responsible or representative of the whole group. 

[Morphine Prince 109,892]

Ben just came off as a foolish PC liberal. Does he even know what he's talking about? He does not seem to fit in that room. Everyone else, and Sam especially made great points and sounded educated on what they were saying.

Sadly, Ben is getting praised and Sam is getting labeled as an Islamophobe (which he is NOT) because Ben was the one yelling like an idiot.

[garnite 8]

And what Ben said at the end is true, I feel: if Filipinos were taking people captive and using them as slaves, you don't go after the Filipino kid on the street as if he was responsible or representative of the whole group.

that is of course true, the point however is that no one is suggesting we "go after" muslims. you have to be able to unchain the ideology from the person espousing it which is the only thing sam in that video is advocating. reformation of the ideology. we have to look at why certain people are doing these things and come to conclusions on the cause. with jihadists it's undeniable that the unifying bond is islam. it's not the same as looking at a bunch of criminals and tarring anyone who looks like them or shares a nationality with them with the same brush. no one is saying that they're all criminal or equal to those who carry out criminal acts by being muslim, just that there is a proclivity to such things through endorsement of the religion as truth and we need to accept it as the problem before we can figure out how to tackle it. to quote sam in the video, "we have to empower the true reformers in the muslim world to change it, and lying about the link between doctrine and behaviour is not going to do that".

[Hot Space 14]

criticizing ideas and not people is necessary, but sometimes the lines blur. There are real consequences of inflating radical Islam with every single Muslim, and even non-Muslims like Sikhs who have been treated like s%it because they look "like them."

And what Ben said at the end is true, I feel: if Filipinos were taking people captive and using them as slaves, you don't go after the Filipino kid on the street as if he was responsible or representative of the whole group.

Filipinos are grouped together because they share the same ethnic background. Therefore, it would be unfair to group them all together as slave traders because one's ethnicity doesn't determine one's personality. Islam is a religion, which means that the people are grouped together by beliefs/ideologies. Therefore, it is fair to say that some of these beliefs are problematic and are encouraging good people to do stupid things. comparing racist stereotyping to criticism of religious ideas just isn't fair

[Ivannn 1,150]

it is so sad that all muslims have stigma because of this radicals

[MahoganySnitch 67]

that is of course true, the point however is that no one is suggesting we "go after" muslims. you have to be able to unchain the ideology from the person espousing it which is the only thing sam in that video is advocating. reformation of the ideology. we have to look at why certain people are doing these things and come to conclusions on the cause. with jihadists it's undeniable that the unifying bond is islam. it's not the same as looking at a bunch of criminals and tarring anyone who looks like them are shares a nationality with them with the same brush. no one is saying that they're all criminal or equal to those who carry out criminal acts by being muslim, just that there is a proclivity to such things through endorsement of the religion as truth and we need to accept it as the problem before we can figure out how to tackle it. to quote sam in the video, "we have to empower the true reformers in the muslim world to change it, and lying about the link between doctrine and behaviour is not going to do that".

If it boils down to a reform to the ideology itself, then our position as non-Muslim westerners should only be supporting the Muslim reformers themselves, correct? Because if left to the West, it would get messy, quick. 

 

And the connecting link is Islam, you are right. But wouldn't it be more correct to say their interpretation of Islam? I'll try to expand my point but forgive me if I lose you lol. These group of people (extremists, etc.) took their teachings in one direction, other Muslims took it in another. Isn't it somewhat the same to the Protestant Reformation, as that was a fundamental disagreement on Christian interpretations of Christ the man, God, etc. (I'm using this example as it's the system most familiar to me). There are different schools of Christian thought nowadays, and no one church (Roman Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc.). Even the "fringe" ones, like the KKK's version of Christianity and the WBC, exist, but other Christians aren't tasked with reforming their ideology (but that's because there is nowhere near as much bloodshed so it's not as immediate, I concede that). 

 

I guess my question is, to what end? What are moderate Muslims supposed to be doing, in the West's eyes? Stop practicing Islam, or practice a different interpretation if it, which is what the extremists are also doing? 

 

Sorry, it does seem a bit ramble-y. 

[MahoganySnitch 67]

Filipinos are grouped together because they share the same ethnic background. Therefore, it would be unfair to group them all together as slave traders because one's ethnicity doesn't determine one's personality. Islam is a religion, which means that the people are grouped together by beliefs/ideologies. Therefore, it is fair to say that some of these beliefs are problematic and are encouraging good people to do stupid things. comparing racist stereotyping to criticism of religious ideas just isn't fair

Yes, but having the same religion doesn't determine one's personality either. One could be an ardent literalist, a more flexible believer, etc. with good or not so favorable views against certain groups, political ideologies, etc. 

 

I'd argue that the principle of generalizations and its consequences can be present in both, as some criticism of Islam can blur into racial territory as well, because we both know that white people are not the first group that comes to mind when we hear the word Muslim. It can be easy to mix the two forms of critique. God knows I've done it before, full disclosure. 

[garnite 8]

If it boils down to a reform to the ideology itself, then our position as non-Muslim westerners should only be supporting the Muslim reformers themselves, correct? Because if left to the West, it would get messy, quick. 

 

And the connecting link is Islam, you are right. But wouldn't it be more correct to say their interpretation of Islam? I'll try to expand my point but forgive me if I lose you lol. These group of people (extremists, etc.) took their teachings in one direction, other Muslims took it in another. Isn't it somewhat the same to the Protestant Reformation, as that was a fundamental disagreement on Christian interpretations of Christ the man, God, etc. (I'm using this example as it's the system most familiar to me). There are different schools of Christian thought nowadays, and no one church (Roman Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, etc.). Even the "fringe" ones, like the KKK's version of Christianity and the WBC, exist, but other Christians aren't tasked with reforming their ideology (but that's because there is nowhere near as much bloodshed so it's not as immediate, I concede that). 

 

I guess my question is, to what end? What are moderate Muslims supposed to be doing, in the West's eyes? Stop practicing Islam, or practice a different interpretation if it, which is what the extremists are also doing? 

 

Sorry, it does seem a bit ramble-y.

yes, non-muslims can't reform the faith but we can show them where it's going wrong. it is up to muslims ultimately to face up to it and (to be blunt) assimilate into peaceful democracy. there are other things that need to be considered such as infringement upon human rights, how much of an active threat it poses to our societies and where we need to step in with force if that's what you were implying, but that is another discussion.

regarding interpretation, that's why you have to look at the muslim countries and how they practise their faith and look at the polls by muslims themselves around the world to gauge the bigger picture of islamic opinion. if you laugh off the opinions of actual muslims as being insignificant evidence of an ideological problem which IS leading to violence justified through it then i don't think there's anything that could convince you that there's anything wrong with what is happening regarding islam in the world today. there's no point in discussing anything with these people if not even muslims can show them that some ideas they hold are dangerous ideas.

watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU

as for the comparison to christianity, yes. that's in the past now and isn't an immediate problem so it's difficult to say.

the first step is admitting there is a problem. that these people are muslims. that these things can and are being justified using their holy texts and that the religion itself is unifying people to aid global jihad. that some of the cruel things they are doing are not "unislamic". that it isn't a religion of peace as it stands. complete lack of sympathy and unreserved condemnation across the board. we just aren't seeing that. the president of the united states has said a group called islamic state has nothing to do with religion. it's just smearing the problem around rather than locking onto it.

I'd argue that the principle of generalizations and its consequences can be present in both, as some criticism of Islam can blur into racial territory as well, because we both know that white people are not the first group that comes to mind when we hear the word Muslim. It can be easy to mix the two forms of critique. God knows I've done it before, full disclosure.

the problem is once you start comparing criticism of islam to racism and always circulating the argument back to race issues or something literally unrelated to the discussion at hand you (in general) end up doing exactly what you're condemning in the first place. tarring people with the same brush of something extremely negative for spurious reasons.

[MahoganySnitch 67]

 if you laugh off the opinions of actual muslims as being insignificant evidence of an ideological problem which IS leading to violence justified through it then i don't think there's anything that could convince you that there's anything wrong with what is happening regarding islam in the world today. 

 

I hope I didn't give this impression, or you are just speaking in general? 

 

complete lack of sympathy and unreserved condemnation across the board. we just aren't seeing that. 

 

You mean from moderates, correct?

 

 

the problem is once you start comparing criticism of islam to racism and always circulating the argument back to race issues or something literally unrelated to the discussion at hand you (in general) end up doing exactly what you're condemning in the first place. tarring people with the same brush of something extremely negative for spurious reasons.

I don't think it's spurious if the critiques in question do call for action against a certain ethnic group and not just the ideology itself, as it has happened before. 

[garnite 8]

I hope I didn't give this impression, or you are just speaking in general?

oh yeah, in general.

 

You mean from moderates, correct?

from every single muslim, if possible. i think if it were the case it would be palpable.

 

I don't think it's spurious if the critiques in question do call for action against a certain ethnic group and not just the ideology itself, as it has happened before.

no i didn't mean that. i meant like, if you say "don't go after all muslims because some are extremists", and then go on to bring up race in a non-racial discussion or accuse someone of being racist or being bigoted for being critical of islam, one ends up doing exactly what one is condemning - going after all criticisers because some are racists/bigots.

[MahoganySnitch 67]

oh yeah, in general.

 

from every single muslim, if possible. i think if it were the case it would be palpable.

 

no i didn't mean that. i meant like, if you say "don't go after all muslims because some are extremists", and then go on to bring up race in a non-racial discussion or accuse someone of being racist or being bigoted for being critical of islam, one ends up doing exactly what one is condemning - going after all criticisers because some are racists/bigots.

I don't know how logistically possible it is to find that kind of uniformity within a faith. After all, there are so many splintered branches within the three main, monotheistic religions alone.

 

And for the 3rd part, I'd be personally wary of what exactly it is they are criticizing, especially if the race of the believers is brought up for slanderous reasons. If that is the case, racism/bigotry indeed becomes part of the conversation. I know that not all criticizers have racist undertones, but there are those who do. And just like extremists in Islam, they have to be acknowledged for what they are. 

[garnite 8]

I don't know how logistically possible it is to find that kind of uniformity within a faith. After all, there are so many splintered branches within the three main, monotheistic religions alone.

 

And for the 3rd part, I'd be personally wary of what exactly it is they are criticizing, especially if the race of the believers is brought up for slanderous reasons. If that is the case, racism/bigotry indeed becomes part of the conversation. I know that not all criticizers have racist undertones, but there are those who do. And just like extremists in Islam, they have to be acknowledged for what they are.

well, i don't think it's too much of a stretch to find uniformity that at the basest level protects human rights and equality, freedom of speech, freedom of expression, freedom to criticise and doesn't lie complacent to the pot of evil that is brewing in their name around the world. if it's a stretch then we have to agree anyway that islam is the problem.

yes. i agree with that totally. this has to be about ideas on every level. bringing race into it or treating ideas like tangible things is a distraction. that goes for both sides - accusations of racism and actual racism/bigotry. there has to be an environment where we can criticise and discuss the merits and downfalls opinions without resorting to the entirely irrelevant to that discussion kind of hysterics that ben affleck was spewing. without being made to feel guilty or a bigot for being critical of islam. and that is the environment that criticism of islam is in. because people are scared of what might happen to them or what they might get called. there are numerous high profile examples of what criticism of islam leads to and it's not pleasant.

[Morphine Prince 109,892]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV710c1dgpU

 

[Hot Space 14]

Yes, but having the same religion doesn't determine one's personality either. One could be an ardent literalist, a more flexible believer, etc. with good or not so favorable views against certain groups, political ideologies, etc.

I'd argue that the principle of generalizations and its consequences can be present in both, as some criticism of Islam can blur into racial territory as well, because we both know that white people are not the first group that comes to mind when we hear the word Muslim. It can be easy to mix the two forms of critique. God knows I've done it before, full disclosure.

But when you criticise a religion you're not necessarily criticising its followers.

There is no way around racism. You can't justify that.

And Islam isn't a race. It's the second largest religion in the world and is expected to surpass Christianity. There are people from all over the globe who are Muslim. Christianity is made fun of and criticised all the time and no one says a peep. In fact, so many people criticised Christianity (or rather the Catholic Church) that it created a movement which we now call the Reformation.

Seems to me like Muslims and PC liberals alike can't handle the discussion when it comes to Islam. There is major reforming to be done in the religion, and I'm not going to shy away from that opinion.