Israel - Palestine Conflict Discussion Thread

[Woolfsmck 2,763]

I did NOT say we should get rid of Israel.

It was a response to someone who completely denies Palestine even existed, and I know many Israeli think just like that.

you keep mixing up Palestinian people with Hamas... Hamas is the target who hide behind Palestinians.

Also, Hamas wants to riid the region of the Jewish people... I only accuse up you of having tunnel vision as to the cause of the conflict.

[River 127,556]

Most of the stories about ancient Israel and Israeli tribes are from the bible.....which is far from being a reliable source!

And I think I have already showed you how the idea of Palestine was promised to jews because there used to be a jewish state there 2000 years ago is so stupid. If the jews have been wandering for thousands of years, Palestinians never left actually; I bet they are more descendent of the real ancient Israel than most Israelis. Even your own sources say that the first Israeli king had to fight against the philistines.

So the romans never were in israel and ruled the hebrew people? Jesus, as far as he was a real person, is jewish, and lived in Israel.

You can find evidences about the hebrew people in many scrolls and monument of many ancient nations like Egypt and Babylon.

 

The philistines were red headed people who came from the area of greece and now they are extinct, totally, no one left.

 

Have you ever read the bible? it's important. because in the bible, the most important part is the book of kings, there you can find out that "god" is almost gone and the stories are more focus on the society, and also, you can see that different writers wrote different chapters, and each one of them had is own agenda about the kings, god, religion and society, which means that there were people there, there were even politics.

I'm excluding genesis as a source because nothing there is real..

Also, there are many things after the bible, for example the oral torah, which is another evidence of the hebrew people in Israel.

and they existed after the bible events.

Also, in Italian, Israelis are called Ebreo, and it's for a reason, the Romans were there and the name never change as the Italian language evaluated from Latin.

 

But, dear Israelis, don't be too happy, as you know, we are Jewish, and we only had the Judah kingdom area, so, like it or not, all the Israel kingdom is not ours, if we go by the bible excuse.

that means that only the Negev area + Jerusalem are the places were the Jewish people lived.

So technically, we stole the land from the other tribes that lived in Israel kingdom and had no right to ask it back, because according to the bible, it's not ours.

This fact is having an impact now, as you know, in Africa, there is a tribe who claims that they are the Mannasse tribe (with a lot of evidences), and wanted to come back to Israel, but they got a big NO, and had to wait almost 10 years until they got accepted but they had to convert, why this example is important? because Israel didn't bring people who have the "biblical" right on this land too.

 

Don't mess with an Archeologist ;) 

[Dolev 867]

Most of the stories about ancient Israel and Israeli tribes are from the bible.....which is far from being a reliable source!

And I think I have already showed you how the idea of Palestine was promised to jews because there used to be a jewish state there 2000 years ago is so stupid. If the jews have been wandering for thousands of years, Palestinians never left actually; I bet they are more descendent of the real ancient Israel than most Israelis. Even your own sources say that the first Israeli king had to fight against the philistines.

of course it was to fight them, this land was never empty of people like any land wasn't (well, except for Antarctica maybe).

 

Jews didn't chose to travel the world, they were expelled by force, and it has nothing to do with the authenticity of the Bible as archaeological finds approve so. Sorry, but who are you to deny Roma happend?

Also, today's Palestinians are not related with the ancient Philistins just like today's Egyptians are not related with the old Egyptians. They are Arabs like any other Arabs spread throughout the Middle East, Muslims or Christians.

 

You'll have to learn Jewish history before throwing such ridiculous hypotheses again if you want people to take you seriously. Culturally, Jews were always living in small-closed communities and the religion was extremely unfriendly for converts. Even at the times of Inquisition many Jews choose to die just for the sake of staying Jews. There was no cultural assimilation and Jews always jealously guarded their special beliefs. Jewish religion orders its believers to pass down the tradition from generation to generation.

Almost all of the Jews were expelled from old-Israel by the Romans. A very small group of them was allowed to stay, only in the 4 holy cities of Jerusalem, Hebron, Safed and Tiberias where they lived during the Jewish diaspora. Saying they became the Palestinians of today is just... wrong, unrealistic and... ignorant.

 

And I don't believe at god at all. I'm an atheist, I take the Bible with a grain of salt. but many things that are told in the Bible were indeed true and happend to be proved by archaeological finds. You didn't show me any "idea" we discussed about was "stupid". It's a fact, Jews lived there. And it's not even the main justification for Israel to exist. It's the moral one we established this state because. Every people should have their national home where they are free and safe. Why couldn't the Palestinians respect and accept us just like we did with them? Why don't they accept us till these days? Israel's hand was always stretched out in peace.

[Gov Hooka 8,008]

This whole thing is getting psycho

 

Israel and Hamas should really stop attacking... damn

Fixed ;)

[Jjang 2,262]

Could this be the end to this ugly war?

[darkwolf 590]

So the romans never were in israel and ruled the hebrew people? Jesus, as far as he was a real person, is jewish, and lived in Israel.

You can find evidences about the hebrew people in many scrolls and monument of many ancient nations like Egypt and Babylon.

 

The philistines were red headed people who came from the area of greece and now they are extinct, totally, no one left.

 

Have you ever read the bible? it's important. because in the bible, the most important part is the book of kings, there you can find out that "god" is almost gone and the stories are more focus on the society, and also, you can see that different writers wrote different chapters, and each one of them had is own agenda about the kings, god, religion and society, which means that there were people there, there were even politics.

I'm excluding genesis as a source because nothing there is real..

Also, there are many things after the bible, for example the oral torah, which is another evidence of the hebrew people in Israel.

and they existed after the bible events.

Also, in Italian, Israelis are called Ebreo, and it's for a reason, the Romans were there and the name never change as the Italian language evaluated from Latin.

 

But, dear Israelis, don't be too happy, as you know, we are Jewish, and we only had the Judah kingdom area, so, like it or not, all the Israel kingdom is not ours, if we go by the bible excuse.

that means that only the Negev area + Jerusalem are the places were the Jewish people lived.

So technically, we stole the land from the other tribes that lived in Israel kingdom and had no right to ask it back, because according to the bible, it's not ours.

This fact is having an impact now, as you know, in Africa, there is a tribe who claims that they are the Mannasse tribe (with a lot of evidences), and wanted to come back to Israel, but they got a big NO, and had to wait almost 10 years until they got accepted but they had to convert, why this example is important? because Israel didn't bring people who have the "biblical" right on this land too.

 

Don't mess with an Archeologist ;)

But I did not deny the ancient Jewish existence in Israel, where did I say that? My point is that when the jews were living in different parts of the world for thousands of years they will undoubtedly get mixed with many other races, and I find it ridiculous taht the children of the children of the children of their children now claim they have strong ties with the land of Israel. Even Hebrew as a language was almost extinct at some point

 

 

 

of course it was to fight them, this land was never empty of people like any land wasn't (well, except for Antarctica maybe).

 

Jews didn't chose to travel the world, they were expelled by force, and it has nothing to do with the authenticity of the Bible as archaeological finds approve so. Sorry, but who are you to deny Roma happend?

Also, today's Palestinians are not related with the ancient Philistins just like today's Egyptians are not related with the old Egyptians. They are Arabs like any other Arabs spread throughout the Middle East, Muslims or Christians.

 

You'll have to learn Jewish history before throwing such ridiculous hypotheses again if you want people to take you seriously. Culturally, Jews were always living in small-closed communities and the religion was extremely unfriendly for converts. Even at the times of Inquisition many Jews choose to die just for the sake of staying Jews. There was no cultural assimilation and Jews always jealously guarded their special beliefs. Jewish religion orders its believers to pass down the tradition from generation to generation.

Almost all of the Jews were expelled from old-Israel by the Romans. A very small group of them was allowed to stay, only in the 4 holy cities of Jerusalem, Hebron, Safed and Tiberias where they lived during the Jewish diaspora. Saying they became the Palestinians of today is just... wrong, unrealistic and... ignorant.

 

And I don't believe at god at all. I'm an atheist, I take the Bible with a grain of salt. but many things that are told in the Bible were indeed true and happend to be proved by archaeological finds. You didn't show me any "idea" we discussed about was "stupid". It's a fact, Jews lived there. And it's not even the main justification for Israel to exist. It's the moral one we established this state because. Every people should have their national home where they are free and safe. Why couldn't the Palestinians respect and accept us just like we did with them? Why don't they accept us till these days? Israel's hand was always stretched out in peace.

 

I did NOT deny Roma, I didn't even mention it! And there is just so many people that got expelled by force during different times; there was no UN back then ^^

You are wrong, the term arab is very misleading; arabs are probably those who live in the semi island of arabia, many who are considered Arabs are actually not arabs (arab#muslim): Modern Egyptians are well related to the ancient ones, with an arab component, but still they are.And DNA studies proved that!

 

But hey, if you deny that the ancient Egyptians who built one of the biggest civilisations that has ever existed, a multimillion population that didn't leave its original land were extinct......what can we say about the kingdom of Israel which lasted only a few centuries at most?

[River 127,556]

But I did not deny the ancient Jewish existence in Israel, where did I say that? My point is that when the jews were living in different parts of the world for thousands of years they will undoubtedly get mixed with many other races, and I find it ridiculous taht the children of the children of the children of their children now claim they have strong ties with the land of Israel. Even Hebrew as a language was almost extinct at some point

 

So I misunderstood, sorry :)

You are right, I do believe that the European Jewish are mixed and even outside of Europe, I'll try to sounds less racist as possible now, but how is it possible for a jewish to be white? think about it.

I believe that the most closet to the ancient jewish are the jewish from Iraq, since they were exiled to Babylon, and they tried very hard not to mix, one fact that the woman got married at young ages, like 10-12 years old.

 

But DNA studies on Jewish showed a link between jewish from different places in the world, unlike the Palestinians who had no DNA link between them and they were divided to many "races" like Yemenis, Egyptians and others.

 

But to be honest, it really doesn't matter anymore, this discussion of "who was here first" is useless.

Both nations are here, one with a country, one with not.

we need to accept this reality, and they need to build a country for themselves, I think that after all those years, it's time to solve this problem.

 

I read many times that you said that they have the right to fight for their liberation and for their right for a country, so my question is - do Scotland have the right to bomb England? the Native Americans have the right to bomb all USA? isn't it a little bit messy and risky if every group of people will start to fight for their liberation or for their land that they had before? there should be a way to ask for liberation, and it's by talking and talking and doing some political twists, but without violence.

[garnite 8]

do Scotland have the right to bomb England?

scotland for a long time has had the option to hold an independence referendum democratically. so of course they don't. ireland was forcibly occupied by england and scotland to be part of united kingdom with no option to opt out and that is why there were bombs in that situation. i do get your point, but there are discrepancies.

[River 127,556]

scotland for a long time has had the option to hold an independence referendum democratically. so of course they don't. ireland was forcibly occupied by england and scotland to be part of united kingdom with no option to opt out and that is why there were bombs in that situation. i do get your point, but there are discrepancies.

 

I don't know the situation very well, but about scotland, I think there was another talking about independent this year but it got rejected by england, I'm not really sure so maybe I'm wrong.. I just wanted to stress a point that many countries and nations are occupied or a land was taken from them all along the history, and if each of them will start to ask it back, it will create a world mess and even a new world war, who knows? and the Palestinians situation is very similar to many other groups in the world.

 

We can't really come back to the old world order..

[garnite 8]

I don't know the situation very well, but about scotland, I think there was another talking about independent this year but it got rejected by england, I'm not really sure so maybe I'm wrong..

no, scots are holding an independence referendum on september 18th. england cannot reject this. it's the will of the scottish people, england/english citizens cannot vote in this referendum as it is not up to them. and england is not occupying the island of great britain. scotland and england together have occupied and colonised many countries.

[River 127,556]

no, scots are holding an independence referendum on september 18th. england cannot reject this. it's the will of the scottish people, england/english citizens cannot vote in this referendum as it is not up to them. and england is not occupying the island of great britain. scotland and england together have occupied and colonised many countries.

 

great news, good to know! so please accept my apology for what I said about england-scotland :)

[Pandemiya 61]

 

Could this be the end to this ugly war?

 

I sure hope so.

[darkwolf 590]

So I misunderstood, sorry :)

You are right, I do believe that the European Jewish are mixed and even outside of Europe, I'll try to sounds less racist as possible now, but how is it possible for a jewish to be white? think about it.

I believe that the most closet to the ancient jewish are the jewish from Iraq, since they were exiled to Babylon, and they tried very hard not to mix, one fact that the woman got married at young ages, like 10-12 years old.

 

But DNA studies on Jewish showed a link between jewish from different places in the world, unlike the Palestinians who had no DNA link between them and they were divided to many "races" like Yemenis, Egyptians and others.

 

But to be honest, it really doesn't matter anymore, this discussion of "who was here first" is useless.

Both nations are here, one with a country, one with not.

we need to accept this reality, and they need to build a country for themselves, I think that after all those years, it's time to solve this problem.

 

I read many times that you said that they have the right to fight for their liberation and for their right for a country, so my question is - do Scotland have the right to bomb England? the Native Americans have the right to bomb all USA? isn't it a little bit messy and risky if every group of people will start to fight for their liberation or for their land that they had before? there should be a way to ask for liberation, and it's by talking and talking and doing some political twists, but without violence.

Yes I agree, this discussion about who was here first is useless. I just wanted to show that the argument of the ancient Israel isn't that strong, and I see so many pro Israel use it all the time.

Yes DNA studies show a link between jewish people and the middle east; but why the Palestinians don't have any DNA link between them? I think there are studies that prove the same thing. But still many of those studies are far from being unbiased or accurate. Plus with DNA you will find that everyone is related in the end ;)

 

If you go back to all my posts here, I have always been supporting the fact that the Palestinians have as much right to that land as the Israelis: even here there are some pro Israel who choose to deny that Palestine even existed, that the Palestinians aren't the original inhabittants, that area was empty.....etc etc. I think the Arabs' position has changed with time, at first they were against the establishment of Israel but now I think the Arab league offered peace and full recognition of Israel in return of an independent Palestinian state, or something like that. The Israeli position however didn't change very much, still no stolen lands returned, settlements are still there in the west bank, and I don't think there is an honest intention to allow a Palestinian state, do you remember that UN vote that recognized Palestine as a non member state or something like that and the Israeli government was completely against it and said it will send the negociations backwards?

And that's why I understand that they can resort to violence and arms, it is really sad that they have to die in thousands before the world start caring about them, don't you think? they have already been waiting for decades now.

The comparison with Scotland and England isn't really accurate...how many times did England bomb Scotland in the last 5 years?

[River 127,556]

Yes I agree, this discussion about who was here first is useless. I just wanted to show that the argument of the ancient Israel isn't that strong, and I see so many pro Israel use it all the time.

Yes DNA studies show a link between jewish people and the middle east; but why the Palestinians don't have any DNA link between them? I think there are studies that prove the same thing. But still many of those studies are far from being unbiased or accurate. Plus with DNA you will find that everyone is related in the end ;)

 

If you go back to all my posts here, I have always been supporting the fact that the Palestinians have as much right to that land as the Israelis: even here there are some pro Israel who choose to deny that Palestine even existed, that the Palestinians aren't the original inhabittants, that area was empty.....etc etc. I think the Arabs' position has changed with time, at first they were against the establishment of Israel but now I think the Arab league offered peace and full recognition of Israel in return of an independent Palestinian state, or something like that. The Israeli position however didn't change very much, still no stolen lands returned, settlements are still there in the west bank, and I don't think there is an honest intention to allow a Palestinian state, do you remember that UN vote that recognized Palestine as a non member state or something like that and the Israeli government was completely against it and said it will send the negociations backwards?

And that's why I understand that they can resort to violence and arms, it is really sad that they have to die in thousands before the world start caring about them, don't you think? they have already been waiting for decades now.

The comparison with Scotland and England isn't really accurate...how many times did England bomb Scotland in the last 5 years?

 

I totally agree with you, everything is a cause of the huge mistakes that my government (which I didn't vote for, I voted for Merez the extreme left and pro Palestine state party) is doing. for example with the recognition of Israel as the state of jewish and all this blah blah, does it really matter if they recognize  israel as jewish or not?! time to move on from this childish and racist request.

and when the UN recognized Palestine as a non member state... it was a good thing and Israel should have take this opportunity instead of go against it.. Palestine needs to be in the UN, it's better for everybody.

The right government of israel is good for one thing - for terror because if you terrorize Israel, you'll get what you want (after you'll lose many of your people), Israel could avoid this war could talk with Hamas to give them what they want. because anyway, they got now what they wanted.. so isn't it sad that, like you said, thousands of people died in this war and we could avoid it very easily? 

 

Now Israel is stuck with a lot of loss of money, war crimes, many countries are against Israel, Israelis hates the government, and Hamas got what they wanted..

[garnite 8]

Israelis hates the government

is there an outspoken opposition to what has happened and to the government equally represented in the israeli media? you wouldn't get that impression if you read the comments from israelis on the internet about this whole fiasco.