Gov Hooka 8,008 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 What's the point of success if it's with empty and shallow music? to dismiss some successful music as empty and shallow is shallow in itself and not okay. It certainly wasn't that for the 10 million people or whatever that bought it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic 20,830 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 All of your points are valid. I agree that my post was very black and white - I was being intentionally hyperbolic to emphasize a point. Also, even though it does seem that Scenario A represented "Pop" and Scenario B represented "Art", I didn't not intend this: I would think of both as pop and both as art, but Scenario A is with the intention of creating something sole-ly for the success, whereas Scenario B is with the intention of creating pop art out of passion and inspiration that may or may not be (but hopefully is) successful. If I had to categorize, I'd say all of Gaga's career thusfar falls into Scenario B, including PF and BR. You make a point about Venus and Aura and the album's sound overall, but challenging structure isn't really what I meant, I meant more lyrical territory and the "intentions" behind the music. The thing is, Gaga has been known for creating pop music that is intentionally mindless in order to fuel her artistic vision, making it more artistic than it seems. The majority of The Fame was satire. I don't think she ever created pop music intentionally for it to make her more successful and to never advance with it. The beginning of her career, the basis of the very start (if you are right in believing this is what she has always wanted) was to create mindless pop music solely as leverage to fuel her artistic vision later in her career. In this case, whether that intention was to make art or just to pave the way, or whether that counts towards what you're talking about, is disputable. You must also realize that a portion of The Fame was not created by Gaga, so it was likely not entirely her artistic vision. That changes things a little because there's no way of determining who wrote which parts, nevermind figuring out what their intentions for writing it were. For all we know, the record company could have demanded catchy pop music from her, and her intention was to make it so, but flared it up with her own artistic visions and experiences in order to give it substance and depth. Whose intention do you call this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryhanna 3,507 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 to dismiss some successful music as empty and shallow is shallow in itself and not okay. It certainly wasn't that for the 10 million people or whatever that bought it. You make a fair point. What comes across to me as vapid may not be to others. It's all subjective. I apologise for my ignorance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerny 4,270 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Well, let's face it, a lot of mainstream music is shallow and made to be popular and have a broad marketing appeal rather than actually saying something. A lot of it can come across as quite faceless and generic, as if it could actually be any singer singing the song and it wouldn't make a difference. I'd rather Gaga continue the path she's always taken and be commercial without sacrificing the "soul" of her music. There's nothing wrong with being popular, and there's nothing wrong with being commercial. But what's always stood out about Gaga is that she's kept her soul in the music, and that's made it unique and identifiable. Exactly, songs like Donatella or Just Dance can be a little generic but her style is always there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BricksNStrings 231 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 The thing is, Gaga has been known for creating pop music that is intentionally mindless in order to fuel her artistic vision, making it more artistic than it seems. The majority of The Fame was satire. I don't think she ever created pop music intentionally for it to make her more successful and to never advance with it. The beginning of her career, the basis of the very start (if you are right in believing this is what she has always wanted) was to create mindless pop music solely as leverage to fuel her artistic vision later in her career. In this case, whether that intention was to make art or just to pave the way, or whether that counts towards what you're talking about, is disputable.You must also realize that a portion of The Fame was not created by Gaga, so it was likely not entirely her artistic vision. That changes things a little because there's no way of determining who wrote which parts, nevermind figuring out what their intentions for writing it were. For all we know, the record company could have demanded catchy pop music from her, and her intention was to make it so, but flared it up with her own artistic visions and experiences in order to give it substance and depth. Whose intention do you call this? What do you mean by this (bolded). Unless I have my facts wrong, the songwriting was just as much as her own as it has been on her subsequent releases, with the only difference being lately she has more experience with production so she handled more of that than she did with "The Fame". Also, I'd say that the music in "The Fame" was not at all "to create mindless pop music solely as leverage to fuel her artistic vision later in her career": Just Dance, Poker Face, Paparazzi are definitely not as complex conceptually or lyrically and bare a lot more resemble to other more "generic" pop music, but they don't lack integrity, IMO: Just Dance is about letting go and enjoying yourself and is full of double entendres and was probably subconsciously her telling herself to relax ("sometimes the simplest move is right, as a later song in her discography puts it) as a result of the stress of trying to create her first record which was really make or break for her, Poker Face is either about pokerfacing her bis-xuality as she claims, or as past sources would have it, about trying her best to act cool in front of Luc who was pretty condescending to her and treated her like trash, Paparazzi is a song that is either about choosing between love and fame, a dark parody of celebrity or about her following Luc around, The Fame was about her breeding inner fame and projecting it through lifestyle, etc...i.e. all the music has some level of depth to it even if on the surface it seems like just "mindless pop music". On your point: "The majority of The Fame was satire." I agree that the majority of TF was satire, but satire is a creative end in itself, not just "mindless pop music". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chic 20,830 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 What do you mean by this (bolded). Unless I have my facts wrong, the songwriting was just as much as her own as it has been on her subsequent releases, with the only difference being lately she has more experience with production so she handled more of that than she did with "The Fame". Also, I'd say that the music in "The Fame" was not at all "to create mindless pop music solely as leverage to fuel her artistic vision later in her career": Just Dance, Poker Face, Paparazzi are definitely not as complex conceptually or lyrically and bare a lot more resemble to other more "generic" pop music, but they don't lack integrity, IMO: Just Dance is about letting go and enjoying yourself and is full of double entendres and was probably subconsciously her telling herself to relax ("sometimes the simplest move is right, as a later song in her discography puts it) as a result of the stress of trying to create her first record which was really make or break for her, Poker Face is either about pokerfacing her bis-xuality as she claims, or as past sources would have it, about trying her best to act cool in front of Luc who was pretty condescending to her and treated her like trash, Paparazzi is a song that is either about choosing between love and fame, a dark parody of celebrity or about her following Luc around, The Fame was about her breeding inner fame and projecting it through lifestyle, etc...i.e. all the music has some level of depth to it even if on the surface it seems like just "mindless pop music". On your point: "The majority of The Fame was satire." I agree that the majority of TF was satire, but satire is a creative end in itself, not just "mindless pop music". I don't think all of The Fame was written by her, there is no way that a person with a status as low as hers (as anyone's status would be) before creating her debut album would have been given complete control over the lyrical aspect of it. You reiterated what I said; The Fame is indeed pop music with the intention of being so, but there is a lot of artistic integrity and satire there. She intended for it to be pop but didn't want it to be mindless. She wanted it to be clever if it was going to be that successful. I don't think she could have (or even wanted to) created a fully artistic debut album even if she wanted to, so either by her own desire, the record label's desire or the pressure placed on pop artists, she created music that would intentionally be catchy for the purpose of being successful. In my personal opinion, I don't think she created art and then put pop on it to make it successful, I think she made pop and put art on it to give it integrity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gov Hooka 8,008 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 "mindless pop music". This does not exist. Music in any form is not mindless. You might be referring to it lyrically but the whole music as a whole is not mindless in any genre. People trashed Disco in the late 70s for being mindless and look at its legacy. Where is the classy, not-trashy rock music today and where is the dumb, stupid disco/dance music today? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappuccino 11 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I just.. really don't even know what I want from Gaga anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rat Boy 43,483 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Before ARTPOP I cared quite a lot about charts. I liked the fact that I could brag about her huge sales and chart positions to other fanbases and be happy in knowing that she was doing really well financially. It's no secret that ARTPOP is not doing as well on the charts as we thought it would. I personally predicted it would outsell The Fame and have at least 1-2 #1 hits. However, through realising that the album wasn't a huge commercial succes, I started to look at pop music differently. I finally started to realise that numbers do not matter, that as long as I liked the music that's all that matters. If you're just here for charts you probably won't be satisfied with any artist and never truly understand the meaning behind the music . Hence, I chose option B. "****ing rat" - @Dynamite Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sWINE Boi 0 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Scenario B is how Gaga's been right from the start. It's not changing anytime soon. Taking risks and not conforming to industry standards are the kind of things that separate her from her peers. It's the kind of thing that makes a legend. There still needs to a balance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BricksNStrings 231 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I don't think all of The Fame was written by her, there is no way that a person with a status as low as hers (as anyone's status would be) before creating her debut album would have been given complete control over the lyrical aspect of it. You reiterated what I said; The Fame is indeed pop music with the intention of being so, but there is a lot of artistic integrity and satire there. She intended for it to be pop but didn't want it to be mindless. She wanted it to be clever if it was going to be that successful. I don't think she could have (or even wanted to) created a fully artistic debut album even if she wanted to, so either by her own desire, the record label's desire or the pressure placed on pop artists, she created music that would intentionally be catchy for the purpose of being successful. In my personal opinion, I don't think she created art and then put pop on it to make it successful, I think she made pop and put art on it to give it integrity. Alright, fair enough. I do still disagree about her not writing it though: Interscope was employing her as a songwriter in the first place and hired her on the basis that had songwriting chops, her vocals were an afterthought after Akon heard her singing a demo for another artist. I'm sure they had more of a say of what went on the album than later in her career, but I really do think she did most of the labor writing it, if not all This does not exist. Music in any form is not mindless. You might be referring to it lyrically but the whole music as a whole is not mindless in any genre. People trashed Disco in the late 70s for being mindless and look at its legacy. Where is the classy, not-trashy rock music today and where is the dumb, stupid disco/dance music today? Mindless, then, was a poor choice of words on my part. What I mean to say is: music that is intended only for commercial gain, made on an assembly line. As Gaga has said in interviews, "McDonalds". There still needs to a balance Tell that to all of the artists who had no balance and who are now considered "legends" as the poster you were quoting pointed out, though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryhanna 3,507 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 There still needs to a balance Some commercial value is important, yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jester 6,305 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gov Hooka 8,008 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Alright, fair enough. I do still disagree about her not writing it though: Interscope was employing her as a songwriter in the first place and hired her on the basis that had songwriting chops, her vocals were an afterthought after Akon heard her singing a demo for another artist. I'm sure they had more of a say of what went on the album than later in her career, but I really do think she did most of the labor writing it, if not all Mindless, then, was a poor choice of words on my part. What I mean to say is: music that is intended only for commercial gain, made on an assembly line. As Gaga has said in interviews, "McDonalds". Tell that to all of the artists who had no balance and who are now considered "legends" as the poster you were quoting pointed out, though Michael Jackson achieved legendary status because of Thriller (songs like Thriller/P.Y.T.), Madonna with Like a Prayer, Britney with Oops!(Oops! and Lucky)... All of them had a balance. The ones who didn't have the balance and strayed completely to the art side giving no attention to the commercial aspects remained in the underground, never to achieve that status as legend. And the thing about making music for commercial gain is that that's supposed to be the ultimate purpose aside from artists pursuing their passion-it is their living as well. Even if music is made for commercial gain, artistic vision and effort is still put into it otherwise if they put out complete crap then no one would buy it. The "McDonalds" a--logy is an extreme one (Gaga only used it to make a point) that doesn't really apply to anything in the music industry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsdominik 16,742 Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Since the painting surfaced I have became more and more worried about Gaga. If these represent her feelings, then something is wrong. She uses dark colors, and if she was fine/happy she would use other - more bright-colors to express her feelings And: Something is definitely wrong, I mean: - very little Tweets (not even a RT) - obvious problems with Interscope - No candids at all (we havent seen her for 2 weeks i think) - No "active" promo at all - No mention of the tour at all lately (she loves touring so much and she tweets a lot about it usually) I dont want Gaga to become/feel depressive again. This would break my heart in pieces :cry: :( Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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