Luigi Mangione Expected To Plead Guilty

[Bronco 26,149]

8 minutes ago, timdrake said:

Isn't this why folks are so against the death penalty? 

People are against the death penalty for a number of reasons.

One of the main reasons it was dropped in many countries that used it was that after multiple miscarriages of justice, people became increasingly less likely to convict regardless of the evidence if the charge carried the death penalty as a sentence because of a lack of trust in the police and system.

 

[timdrake 2,151]

1 minute ago, Bronco said:

People are against the death penalty for a number of reasons.

One of the main reasons it was dropped in many countries that used it was that after multiple miscarriages of justice, people became increasingly less likely to convict regardless of the evidence if the charge carried the death penalty as a sentence because of a lack of trust in the police and system.

 

I could see that, yeah. It's such a final and ultimate response that you can't come back from.

[Bronco 26,149]

1 minute ago, timdrake said:

And nothing changed after the guy was shot. 

You say this. 

But the stock prices of UHC have halved since the shooting from $610 to $308. UHC has been sued by its shareholders for the company's response to the shooting. And the CEO was forced to resign. Their profits nosedived. And it led to authorities uncovering medicare fraud by the company which they are under investigation for. UHC has still not financially recovered. 

No we didn't suddenly enter a utopia, but a domino effect was created that continues to impact UHC. 

Things absolutely changed as a result of what Luigi did. Its a total fallacy to say nothing happened as a result. 

[timdrake 2,151]

4 minutes ago, Bronco said:

Things absolutely changed as a result of what Luigi did. Its a total fallacy to say nothing happened as a result. 

This is a little different than what I'm talking about. Of course things happened to the company itself after the shooting. It's an active, publicly-traded organization, things are going to happen to it. I don't deny any of the instances that you listed. 

But did it lead to any widespread systemic reforms in how insurance companies pay for their members? No. Security budgets increased for insurance executives, and while there are noted instances of prior-authorization streamlining, the industry has not changed in any meaningful way, nonetheless a way that makes murder justifiable.

I say this as someone who worked 9 years in health insurance, and now works on the other side for hospital patient billing. 

[ShinyGaga 79]

The guy giving me green flag

[Bronco 26,149]

2 minutes ago, timdrake said:

But did it lead to any widespread systemic reforms in how insurance companies pay for their members? No

And no one expected a single action by an angry individual to do so.

But we instantly saw a change in the political landscape that will impact future election cycles. 

It highlighted the abusive algorithms and practices of companies like UHC. 

We saw a near unique in america bipartisan consensus among working class demographics in their response to the killing.

And that bipartisan response saw numerous high profile right wing figures start changing their rhetoric around healthcare after their own cultivated MAGA turned on them (and in some cases threatened them with similar acts).

We've seen Tucker Carlson (a very likely right wing 2028 presidental candidate) effectively endorse the anger behind the killing (while not endorsing the killing) and he has ramped up his campaigning against the health insurance industry. 

We've seen continued bipartisan growth in support among voters across the US in support for healthcare reform and support for politicians campaigning on it. 

Trying to argue that the killing did nothing & had zero contributory effects because reform didn't happen immediately afterwards is intellectually dishonest. 

 

[Bronco 26,149]

11 minutes ago, timdrake said:

I say this as someone who worked 9 years in health insurance

In what roles? 

[Petie Estie 5,714]

openly applauding the murder is not smart on many levels. I feel like the correct take is that when the system fails this hard it's not surprising that things like this happen, but they shouldn't. We need medicare for all. Channel your anger into organizing with the DSA or your local M4A-supporting candidates. 

Edit: 

OK on-topic though, I hope this is false. It feels like it could be a planted piece of info leaked by the prosecution to make it look like he's guilty. 

Edited 8 hours ago by Petie Estie

[timdrake 2,151]

10 minutes ago, Bronco said:

In what roles? 

Credentialing, prior-authorization, and appeals. It was a regional company that ended up folding because a larger, more known organization actively worked to expand into our market and take our business.

(So I had reason to be frustrated at the major healthcare corps, but not once did I think about murdering somebody.)

Edited 8 hours ago by timdrake

[PartySick 173,069]

22 minutes ago, timdrake said:

This is a little different than what I'm talking about. Of course things happened to the company itself after the shooting. It's an active, publicly-traded organization, things are going to happen to it. I don't deny any of the instances that you listed. 

But did it lead to any widespread systemic reforms in how insurance companies pay for their members? No. Security budgets increased for insurance executives, and while there are noted instances of prior-authorization streamlining, the industry has not changed in any meaningful way, nonetheless a way that makes murder justifiable.

I say this as someone who worked 9 years in health insurance, and now works on the other side for hospital patient billing. 

It absolutely contributed to the new culture of "it's not 'left vs right' it's 'up vs down'" that we're FINALLY seeing in mainstream politics.

Was it the catalyst? Of course not. But it was a pretty sizable cut to the monster that we're trying to slay.

[PartySick 173,069]

I would challenge people to learn the difference between "applauding murder" and "not having an ounce of sympathy for a sub-human bastard responsible for thousands of deaths being put down by a vigilante who is paying the consequences"  

[timdrake 2,151]

15 minutes ago, Bronco said:

And no one expected a single action by an angry individual to do so.

But we instantly saw a change in the political landscape that will impact future election cycles. 

It highlighted the abusive algorithms and practices of companies like UHC. 

We saw a near unique in america bipartisan consensus among working class demographics in their response to the killing.

And that bipartisan response saw numerous high profile right wing figures start changing their rhetoric around healthcare after their own cultivated MAGA turned on them (and in some cases threatened them with similar acts).

We've seen Tucker Carlson (a very likely right wing 2028 presidental candidate) effectively endorse the anger behind the killing (while not endorsing the killing) and he has ramped up his campaigning against the health insurance industry. 

We've seen continued bipartisan growth in support among voters across the US in support for healthcare reform and support for politicians campaigning on it. 

Trying to argue that the killing did nothing & had zero contributory effects because reform didn't happen immediately afterwards is intellectually dishonest. 

 

While I don’t believe every instance you listed would have/could have only come about in the aftermath of the shooting, I see what you’re saying. I’ll concede “nothing happened” could have been worded differently, as my intended implication was that nothing substantial has been changed in how the healthcare industry pays its members’ costs in the almost two years since the shooting.

Can I ask you- do YOU think the murder was justified?

[timdrake 2,151]

5 minutes ago, PartySick said:

I would challenge people to learn the difference between "applauding murder" and "not having an ounce of sympathy for a sub-human bastard responsible for thousands of deaths being put down by a vigilante who is paying the consequences"  

yeah there’s definitely a difference. i’m not gonna be one of those “😢 he had a family” people and defend the CEO’s character (we all have families, he’s not that special), but I still don’t think it was right for a citizen to decide to take another man’s life

[Skyana Rava 2,762]

20 minutes ago, Petie Estie said:

Channel your anger into organizing with your local M4M candidates. 

Oh! 

[Bronco 26,149]

3 minutes ago, timdrake said:

Can I ask you- do YOU think the murder was justified?

Yes. 

The rich have had enough of these throughout human history to know better. 
They repeatedly attempt to corrupt society for their own benefit and inevitably reach the point where the oppressed turn to the only method they feel they have left which is violence against the oppressor. 

I'm never going to condemn the abused dog finally fighting back against its master with what ever method it has available to it. 

This issue of healthcare costs in the US is not new. And the debate around premiums and coverage stretches back to the 1960s and introduction of Medicaid & Medicare. 
We act like "oh peace is the solution" but the peaceful route is what's been tried longer than likely anyone on this site has been alive and things are continuing to get worse and there is still not universal healthcare after 60 years. The ACA was gutted within seconds via Sebelius which killed off the expansion of Medicaid and this has worsened regional inequality in coverage and healthcare. Cost-sharing increased by 77% in the ten years following it. 30% of providers deny Medicaid patients. Medicaid patients report longer wait times & lower quality care. The individual mandate penalty was set to 0 in 2017 and by next year is expected to cause a 13 million drop in people with health insurance. 

At some point - what option is left? Every peaceful reform in the 70s was blocked by Health Insurance companies bribing politiicans, the 1993 Clinton attempt to reform was blocked by the Republicans fearing it would destroy them electorally and the ACA under Obama has been consistently gutted of all purpose since its implementation by the bought & paid for politicians representing the insurance companies. 

How is the average working class citizen who's a single paycheck away from homelessness supposed to fight a multi-billion pound industry on a $ for $ basis in political contests? 

I'm not sure we're quite at the point where violence is the only option left. But we'll hit that point on the current trajectory before we get LG8.