Official Joker: Folie À Deux Review & Discussion Thread

[monstertoronto 8,739]

16 minutes ago, MaybeKermit said:

I watched it for a second time yesterday and I must say my 2nd watch was way better. 
 

first time I had very high expectstions so it fell..flat tbh, didnt really enjoy it a lot

2nd time I already knew how the movie was so I had time to enjoy everything and ok, there’s 2-3 songs too many, but the movie itself felt like a much nicer watch

Interesting. I don’t know if I want to watch it again right now but I did enjoy seeing Gaga up there. That’s the only reason I would see it again. 

[monstertoronto 8,739]

5 minutes ago, Helxig said:

This is what I keep thinking! Who was this movie for? Fans of the original were bound to hate it, DC fans were also never going to like it, they used Gaga to bring in her fans but then hardly had her in the movie, it's too all over the place for just regular folks to enjoy, straight men were always going to hate the musical aspects and gay men were always going to get bored of the constant dialogue in dark rooms, and to top if off they loaded the trailers with action and drama and delivered none of that and even excluded scenes from the trailers so?.. who were they marketing to?

All of this!!!  I don’t think it really pleases any particular fanbase and probably alienates a lot of them. The fanboys are NOT going to like all the musical interludes and I was kind of bored by all the dark room scenes. 

[monstertoronto 8,739]

40 minutes ago, QueenChromatix said:

which part of Joker (2019) can be classified as a dark comedy?

True. It was also very sad. 

[monstertoronto 8,739]

8 minutes ago, Bobina said:

I completely agree with the musical numbers being jarring, especially the first one. They didn't let Lee's and Joker's relationship build at all. They had, what, two scenes? Before they were fully "in love"? Gaga had barely any time to establish Lee as a character. In most of her scenes, she was singing. Had scarcely any speaking lines. Don't think it passed the Bechdel test. This movie had a lot of potential. And it wasn't Gaga's fault that it was so empty and all over the place. But, man, I just wonder when and where the vision got so lost. The ending twist could have hit so good but because of the build-up, it just didn't. 

Yes!  I mean I understand the concept of the songs being his inner life  but it just didn’t work for me, especially with her also actually supposed to be singing sometimes. It felt so forced.  It felt like a theatre kid got to make a joker movie. And it’s not Gaga who wrote or directed this movie but it feels like Gaga’s musical persona just sort of got grafted onto this movie and I feel the fanboys would hate those scenes. 

[LordByron28 858]

8 minutes ago, Bobina said:

I completely agree with the musical numbers being jarring, especially the first one. They didn't let Lee's and Joker's relationship build at all. They had, what, two scenes? Before they were fully "in love"? Gaga had barely any time to establish Lee as a character. In most of her scenes, she was singing. Had scarcely any speaking lines. Don't think it passed the Bechdel test. This movie had a lot of potential. And it wasn't Gaga's fault that it was so empty and all over the place. But, man, I just wonder when and where the vision got so lost. The ending twist could have hit so good but because of the build-up, it just didn't. 

Arthur hallucinated a romance and relationship to a woman that spoke to him for 30 seconds in the previous film. Lee was manipulative and lying to him. When confronted she lied and said she was pregnant with his kid and further manipulated him. 

[Bobina 1,257]

Just now, LordByron28 said:

Arthur hallucinated a romance and relationship to a woman that spoke to him for 30 seconds in the previous film. Lee was manipulative and lying to him. When confronted she lied and said she was pregnant with his kid and further manipulated him. 

 I know. I watched the movie(s) 

[monstertoronto 8,739]

8 minutes ago, LordByron28 said:

Honestly question most reviews from critics and viewers if they’ve seen the original. Like Arthur is singing and dancing in that movie as well. The media created this incel narrative that is just not present if you watch the movie.

The original told a tale of a poverty stricken man suffering from mental illness and how society and government failed him. He was born into poor circumstances, failed by social services, failed by a government elected by people idolizing billionaires who cut government programs to benefit the less fortunate, treated awfully by society, was handed a gun and made a series of poor decisions that led to a killing spree. His killing spree gave him a lot of attention and unintentionally made him an icon and representation of everything wrong with the government and society.

The sequel further elaborated with how social services failed him as a kid as well as the shortcomings of how we treat prisoners. In addition to highlighting how people treat their icons/heroes when they don’t live up to the lofty expectations we had of them in our head. 

I enjoyed the movie. Don’t think it’s worthy of all the hatred it has received. It doesn’t follow the comics but neither did Suicide Squad or a lot of DC films. It has a number of deeper commentaries. References and plays homage to a number of classic films. There’s a unique premise with a few memorable musical numbers. Film and art direction is beautiful. There were some plot lines I would’ve wished for more or less screen time dedicated towards or handled slightly differently but a solid 7-8/10. 

I like your analysis of the films. I just didn’t really enjoy watching this one and felt the tone was all over the place. 

[LordByron28 858]

9 minutes ago, Bobina said:

 I know. I watched the movie(s) 

You questioned how they could be in love so quickly. I explained that one created an entire romance off of a 30 second interaction previously; while Lee was lying to him and saying/doing things that would make him believe it was real.

9 minutes ago, monstertoronto said:

I like your analysis of the films. I just didn’t really enjoy watching this one and felt the tone was all over the place. 

Understandable. I do see that perspective just don’t think the film deserves such a negative score and reception. Think it will be better received over time when the dust settles, even when its shortcomings are also still recognized. 

[monstertoronto 8,739]

3 minutes ago, LordByron28 said:

Understandable. I do see that perspective just don’t think the film deserves such a negative score and reception. Think it will be better received over time when the dust settles, even when its shortcomings are also still recognized. 

Honestly, for Gagas sake I do hope the film’s legacy is better received over time. But while I think the original Joker had a very cohesive tone and storyline, I personally don’t think adding (or arguably massively expanding) the musical conceit to this one helped the movie and I just dont know if time will solve the problem. But I don’t like that I didn’t like this movie. I wish I liked it more. 

[hELXIG 41,529]

13 minutes ago, monstertoronto said:

All of this!!!  I don’t think it really pleases any particular fanbase and probably alienates a lot of them. The fanboys are NOT going to like all the musical interludes and I was kind of bored by all the dark room scenes. 

My selfish wish is that they chose to lean into a juxtaposition of big, vibrant, campy moments with dark, eerie, thought-provoking moments. Sometimes cutting back and fourth from, for example, a big campy musical scene to a deep and serious conversation, with the lyrics matching up with what they're saying. If it was done really well like that then the fanboys would give the musical scenes a pass or even admit they worked well, and the Gaga fans and normal people wouldn't have gotten bored of the more serious stuff. I mean I usually am pretty good and just focussing on dialogue but even I was really struggling in parts to bother to keep listening

The other idea in my head is that the whole entire movie was only half the movie. As in the whole court case and what Arthur was going through was condensed into about half the movie and the other half was an actual Harley origin story very similar to the first movie, and it would cut between their two perspectives equally and we'd see their stories playout alongside each other and intertwine. Rather than Harley just popping in for a few minutes randomly here and there to support Arthur's story. It could have been so interesting and exciting and actually add something to the plot twists

[monstertoronto 8,739]

1 minute ago, Helxig said:

The other idea in my head is that the whole entire movie was only half the movie. As in the whole court case and what Arthur was going through was condensed into about half the movie and the other half was an actual Harley origin story very similar to the first movie, and it would cut between their two perspectives equally and we'd see their stories playout alongside each other and intertwine. Rather than Harley just popping in for a few minutes randomly here and there to support Arthur's story. It could have been so interesting and exciting and actually add something to the plot twists

I actually love this idea. I think the court story honestly was so thin anyways. I couldn’t believe that it basically encompassed almost the entire film. Lee was actually a fascinating character that had a few twists/layers and I would have loved to spend more time with her. 

[Ivy 11,572]

I agree pretty much, altho I loved it. But it's definitely super dark and tragic. I did think there was a little bit of dark comedy at certain parts of the musical numbers. And I didn't really find it to be slow but I think that is subjective and depends on types of things that a person usually watches 

I almost think the music parts were jarring on purpose maybe? To give them a more surreal quality? Or maybe to show his state of mind being so different than reality? Idk but they were so contrasted, with the saturated colors and everything, compared with when it goes back to reality with gray and gritty quality. And every time they started singing I was thinking how much some ppl would be hating it which I kind of enjoyed 

I could definitely see Gaga's interest in that way that you described. Also the way it's showing the cycle of abuse, and mental health, relates to her interest in that and her beliefs in kindness

[tyler k 4,701]

respectfully, there's a thread for this you know that right?

 

[MaybeKermit 3,880]

54 minutes ago, monstertoronto said:

Interesting. I don’t know if I want to watch it again right now but I did enjoy seeing Gaga up there. That’s the only reason I would see it again. 

I felt the same way you do after my 1st watch. Definitely thought “damn… it was bad”, but just wanted to go again by myself (bcs my 1st watch was with a group of friends and they didnt like it, even during the movie some of them were on their phone so it kinda distracted me from trying to enjoy it). 
 

and so I went by myself, and really enjoyed it much more. Soundtrack is amazing, cinematography is amazing, story-wise ofc there are some problems but it was less disturbing during my 2nd watch. 
 

only things that still annoyed me were SPOILERS !!!!! (cant find the spoiler button)

1) the way Gaga starts singing “my friends should see me now”, it really starts the whole campy/corny musica vibe 

2) the way Gaga sings Close to You, (from the moment she stands up and dances I mean). Again, too corny and doesnt fit the vibe of that scene

3) how early they “expose” Harley (when his attorney tells him her dad is a doctor etc). Couldve chosen a better moment + way for Arthur to find out

4) switch from Arthur’s scene to Gaga singing World on a string and putting on her makeup, felt too random

that’s all that bothered me during my 2nd watch tbh

[MOT 2,627]

I must admit I would still like to know what went on behind the scenes. The marketing of the movie, even before any trailers, suggested a much bigger role for Gaga. So was that intentionally misleading, or was there genuinely a change of plan, and if the latter, why ?

That being said, I thought that what we ended up with made sense. The movie was Arthur's story, and in that story nothing REALLY good could happen to him. In terms of the plot, Lee's role was to reignite the Joker character, but their romance couldn't go anywhere. Arthur had nothing going for him. He was a powerless man with no love in his life, and the only reason anyone paid any attention to him was because he was a murderer - not a good place to be. His fantasies were all he had. Take away that music and there was nothing.