Europe's 'most endangered' idiom has 58 active speakers left, says researcher

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Only 58 people actively speak the Istro-Romanian idiom in two localities on the Istrian peninsula in Croatia, out of 150 speakers, says linguist researcher Manuela Nevaci in a report made by TVR International, played in the show "Article VII ” dedicated to Romanians everywhere.

"The only school where this dialect could be taught has been turned into a museum", says the researcher.

"In 2017, when I was with another research project, there were 80 active speakers, so here the number is dropping precipitously.", Nevaci, who also teaches literary Romanian language and dialect courses for Aromanians in Albania, said on the show. „The Istro-Romanian dialect, along with the Aromanian dialect and the Megleno-Romanian dialect, is one of the three South-Danube Romanian dialects. Why did I choose a lecture on the Istro-Romanian dialect? (at the Dialectology Congress) Because, unfortunately, this dialect is on the way to disappearance". Source

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@Okinawa Even though I know you are well-informed, I am not sure how much you know about this dialect.  In light of what we discussed on Ukraine's education law this seems like a taste of what's eventually going to happen to the linguistic minorities there also.

[bionic 50,111]

This is why minority languages should be protected

[Ayesha Erotica 1,925]

54 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

@Okinawa Even though I know you are well-informed, I am not sure how much you know about this dialect. 

I learn something new every day, also thanks to you, Google, Wikipedia & my universities' physical and digital library

Interesting that this language (or dialect) made it to Istria. I guess because it is a peninsula that is mountainous, this had a positive effect on the long-term (but not forever) preservation of the language. And because Croatia didn't have a war with Romania. This is quite astonishing for such a small language community!

In general, islands, peninsulas and mountains are beneficial for conservation because they isolate and preserve a small community that is then less influenced by external exchanges. Today I saw a report about Corsica and the resistance movement that is pro-independence. And the island status played a big role in people's identity.

Well, the difference between Istro-Romanian and HUN/RO/BUL in UKR is, is that when Istro-Romanian is gone, it's gone forever, meaning the specific language/dialect. HUN/RO/BUL will live on in their core states. The population decline of Romania will have a greater effect on the language vitality even more than the diappearance of RO in UKR b/c of the total numbers. However, in the long term all [other] specific Romanian and Hungarian dialects will probably disappear also within HUN and RO in favor of the standard language, as is and has already happened in Western & Central Europe and elsewhere in the world. The trend is towards ever larger language communities that are shared nationally and no longer locally in dialect.

[Dennis 8,391]

16 minutes ago, bionic said:

This is why minority languages should be protected

Why though? If a kid is gonna grow up being fluent in a language that only 0.0001% use, that's a MAJOR handicap in life already.

Language has a high degree of influence over what kind of qualifications/jobs you'll have in life.

Most people these days can't be fluent in more than one language, two if they're lucky.

Language is not considered a protected characteristic under the law. For example in the U.S, you can sue your employer if they don't hire you because of your sexual orientation, race, religion etc, but you can't sue them if they don't hire you because you don't speak English or Spanish. 

[bionic 50,111]

22 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Why though? If a kid is gonna grow up being fluent in a language that only 0.0001% use, that's a MAJOR handicap in life already.

Language has a high degree of influence over what kind of qualifications/jobs you'll have in life.

Most people these days can't be fluent in more than one language, two if they're lucky.

Language is not considered a protected characteristic under the law. For example in the U.S, you can sue your employer if they don't hire you because of your sexual orientation, race, religion etc, but you can't sue them if they don't hire you because you don't speak English or Spanish. 

Protecting minority language/culture/history from extinction is a totally different class of protection to the kind you're talking about with equality legislation.

A kid growing up speaking a language only 0.0001% use is unlikely to exclusively speak THAT language alone, but in any case– why should speaking you abandon your native tongue just because the larger population doesn't speak it?

The American in you screamed out when you said "most people can't be fluent in more than one language". A LOT of the world is multilingual.

Linguistic imperialism is imperialism, no matter how natural a consequence of centralization it is

[FfFfFfFF 58,336]

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

Why though? If a kid is gonna grow up being fluent in a language that only 0.0001% use, that's a MAJOR handicap in life already.

Language has a high degree of influence over what kind of qualifications/jobs you'll have in life.

Most people these days can't be fluent in more than one language, two if they're lucky.

Language is not considered a protected characteristic under the law. For example in the U.S, you can sue your employer if they don't hire you because of your sexual orientation, race, religion etc, but you can't sue them if they don't hire you because you don't speak English or Spanish. 

For some minorities the language is a core part of their identity to which they have an emotional connection with. They sometimes get discriminated against for on the basis of their mother's tongue.

If you do not get this, you should just abstain from commenting instead of advocating for the erasure of minority languages. As an American native in English this is frankly not something you seem to be willing to understand.

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

Language is not considered a protected characteristic under the law. For example in the U.S, you can sue your employer if they don't hire you because of your sexual orientation, race, religion etc, but you can't sue them if they don't hire you because you don't speak English or Spanish. 

What is happening in the US or what the American laws say isn't relevant to the topic at hand.

[Ayesha Erotica 1,925]

28 minutes ago, Dennis said:

1) Why though? If a kid is gonna grow up being fluent in a language that only 0.0001% use, that's a MAJOR handicap in life already.

2) Language is not considered a protected characteristic under the law. For example in the U.S, you can sue your employer if they don't hire you because of your sexual orientation, race, religion etc, but you can't sue them if they don't hire you because you don't speak English or Spanish. 

1) Languages are also carriers of social beliefs, practices and peculiarities. Preserving them from extinction also means preserving a piece of diversity and reminding about the past of the place where they are spoken. At least people should have the freedom to decide whether they want to continue the tradition or not at places where the language was historically alive. They don't have to, but there shouldn't be any obstacles placed in their way if they want to.

2) It is protected in Québec. But it's a rather weak law, regardless of which country, because employers aren't going to say, "I'm not going to hire you because you're gay, because you don't know English [in Québec], because you're a woman," instead they just won't hire the person and say "someone else was more qualified" or "you are overqualified and will get bored". There's actually a lot of theatre going on there. Employees rarely know why they were really rejected. One may be considered too old, too ugly by the employer, or the job may have been given to someone they know before - the employer ain't often gonna reveal the real reason because he/she does not want to disappoint the employee or break laws, it is similair to dating where the rejected person is left in the dark and given spongy excuses or no reasons at all. The law in Québec sounds de jure very powerful but de facto it is a failure and weak because it is easily bypassed.

 

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34 minutes ago, Okinawa said:

I learn something new every day, also thanks to you, Google, Wikipedia & my universities' physical and digital library

Interesting that this language (or dialect) made it to Istria. I guess because it is a peninsula that is mountainous, this had a positive effect on the long-term (but not forever) preservation of the language. And because Croatia didn't have a war with Romania. This is quite astonishing for such a small language community!

In general, islands, peninsulas and mountains are beneficial for conservation because they isolate and preserve a small community that is then less influenced by external exchanges. Today I saw a report about Corsica and the resistance movement that is pro-independence. And the island status played a big role in people's identity.

Well, the difference between Istro-Romanian and HUN/RO/BUL in UKR is, is that when Istro-Romanian is gone, it's gone forever, meaning the specific language/dialect. HUN/RO/BUL will live on in their core states. The population decline of Romania will have a greater effect on the language vitality even more than the diappearance of RO in UKR b/c of the total numbers. However, in the long term all [other] specific Romanian and Hungarian dialects will probably disappear also within HUN and RO in favor of the standard language, as is and has already happened in Western & Central Europe and elsewhere in the world. The trend is towards ever larger language communities that are shared nationally and no longer locally in dialect.

This is correct, the Romanian minority in Ukraine speaks the same idiom as Romania and the Republic of Moldova. But the 58 Istro-Romanian speakers left speak a completely unique variant of Balkan Romance which will likely dissapear in a few years – It'll be tragic to wake up one day and hear it's gone. 

But the process was long under way because the various Istro-Romanian villages in Istria were mostly not aware they speak the same language (their lingua franca was Croatian, bc they didn't know more villages speak Istro-Romanian at home: they assumed everybody else spoke Croatian). There are now 2 variants of Istro-Romanian, a third variant became extinct in the last century. You are right that mountains were favorable to linguistic preservation. Another factor at play is that  Istria's mountains were a historical transhumance route for Vlach sepherds. Now by the time Croatia became independent, Istro-Romanian was in already in a bad shape.

About dialectal differences, not counting Aromanian, Istro-Romanian and Megleno-Romanian, Romanian is pretty unitary already. The language of someone from Timișoara is completely inteligibile with that of someone from Chișinău (although some words and the accent are different, the newer generations start to ditch the accent, but you still hear glimpses of it. Because of this, I made a point for myself to still speak some words in the Moldovan accent ). In the past, the Moldovan accent was seen as uncool, but singers from the Republic of Moldova kinda made it more popular in recent years.

[Maxine Puth 9,053]

1 hour ago, FfFfFfFF said:

For some minorities the language is a core part of their identity to which they have an emotional connection with. They sometimes get discriminated against for on the basis of their mother's tongue.

If you do not get this, you should just abstain from commenting instead of advocating for the erasure of minority languages. As an American native in English this is frankly not something you can or are willing to understand.

What is happening in the US or what the American laws say isn't relevant to the topic at hand.

His comment was… quite poor but please don’t take it as a sign of how all us Americans think  sincerely an American learning their third language. 

[Modern Ecstacy 3,888]

3 hours ago, bionic said:

This is why minority languages should be protected

Agreed. My native language in India is in the same boat. Even though it's spoken by a number much larger than Istro-Romanian, it's dying out quickly. Me and my sister don't speak it. My parent's generation was the last one to speak it. It's really sad. 

[Economy 52,901]

Fascinating.

 

I know Portugal has a 2nd official language (Mirandes) that not a lot of ppl left still speak but id guess its at least a few hundred or few thousand left

 

Edit: oh according to google up to 10,000 i thought was less maybe cuz i never met one. Not at all the same scope then

 

@FfFfFfFF fascinating how simmilar that atire is to some traditional portuguese clothing

[Ayesha Erotica 1,925]

3 hours ago, FfFfFfFF said:

1) (their lingua franca was Croatian, bc they didn't know more villages speak Istro-Romanian at home: they assumed everybody else spoke Croatian)

2) In the past, the Moldovan accent was seen as uncool, but singers from the Republic of Moldova kinda made it more popular in recent years.

1) This is kinda tragic. Imagine you meet s.o. new and talk to him and he shares the same rare secret hobby as you do but both of you think "naaah so unlikely that he has interest in it, I won't even mention it" and don't talk of that hobby and go apart without even knowing that both of you had the same rare hobby. One could write a Fairtale story of the Istro-Romanian-Villages.

2) The power of pop music

[Dennis 8,391]

5 hours ago, FfFfFfFF said:

As an American native in English this is frankly not something you seem to be willing to understand.

Such a stupid comment. You should stop making assumptions about people. You made the wrong assumption actually. I am bilingual (English/French). I was also taught German when I was 14 but because of the lack of use, I'm barely fluent in that now. Many Americans are actually bilingual (particularly Spanish). But that statement was about the reality and not me in particular. For example, I know a lot of Americans who struggle to learn a second language. And I know a lot of French people who also struggle to be fluent in English.

Once you step outside of your online bubble, you'll realize that practicality in the real world differs significantly. Companies are particularly strict regarding the quality of communication skills in the languages they use. That's why I believe individuals who are not fluent in in-demand languages begin their professional careers with a major handicap.

But maybe people who haven't started their professional careers yet don't understand these realities. But don't get mad at people for pointing it out.

And maybe if you stopped being cynical about everything, you would've understood why I mentioned the legal protections. If you grow up speaking a language not in use and struggle to find employment, you're not protected, in the sense that no company is required to accommodate your linguistic preferences. Say for example, you come for an interview with a heavy accent that makes it difficult for them to understand, they can deny you and you can do nothing about it. You can get mad at me for describing reality as is, or you can take the mature approach and accept what we face today in the real world.

[FfFfFfFF 58,336]

3 hours ago, Dennis said:

Such a stupid comment. You should stop making assumptions about people. You made the wrong assumption actually. I am bilingual (English/French). I was also taught German when I was 14 but because of the lack of use, I'm barely fluent in that now. Many Americans are actually bilingual (particularly Spanish). But that statement was about the reality and not me in particular. For example, I know a lot of Americans who struggle to learn a second language. And I know a lot of French people who also struggle to be fluent in English.

Once you step outside of your online bubble, you'll realize that practicality in the real world differs significantly. Companies are particularly strict regarding the quality of communication skills in the languages they use. That's why I believe individuals who are not fluent in in-demand languages begin their professional careers with a major handicap.

But maybe people who haven't started their professional careers yet don't understand these realities. But don't get mad at people for pointing it out.

And maybe if you stopped being cynical about everything, you would've understood why I mentioned the legal protections. If you grow up speaking a language not in use and struggle to find employment, you're not protected, in the sense that no company is required to accommodate your linguistic preferences. Say for example, you come for an interview with a heavy accent that makes it difficult for them to understand, they can deny you and you can do nothing about it. You can get mad at me for describing reality as is, or you can take the mature approach and accept what we face today in the real world.

You thought you gonna enlighten us on why the dissapearence of minority language is actually a good thing. Next up: Why zoonotic diseases are great and lovely!! "Online bubble" is you seeing everything through the lense of US defaultism.