Ukraine ammends 2017 education law amid concerns regarding faltering support

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In 2017 Ukraine adopted a law restricting the usage of minority languages in schools. The law caused indigation in neighboring countries and was criticized by the Council of Europe for its discriminatory nature and human rights violations (https://assembly.coe.int/nw/xml/xref/xref-xml2html-en.asp?fileid=24218&lang=en). As such, the status of the Romanian, Bulgarian and Hungarian minorities in Ukraine and their treatment by the Ukrainian government was a constant point of friction between the four countries even during the Russia-Ukraine war.

This week Ukraine's Rada decided to lift some of the language restrictions, adopting an ammendment that ''private higher education institutions will have the right to freely choose their language of study if it is one of the official languages of the European Union, but they will have to ensure that the people enrolled in these institutions also study the language of Ukraine as a separate academic discipline''.

There is still a lot of room for improvement, especially when it comes to state universities and hischools, but it's an improvement concerning the treatment of minorities in Ukraine and a hopeful sign Ukraine might someday undo lift all restrictions placed on minority languages. Another article on the matter: https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-society/2317400-hungary-romania-to-seek-changes-in-ukrainian-law-on-education.html 

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Besides the majority of ethnic Ukrainians and a minority of Russian, in Ukraine live around

- 500.000 Romanians;

- 200.000 Bulgarians

-156.000 Hungarians

- 144.000 Poles and a smaller number of Gagauzes, Greeks, Albanians & Rroma people.

People who might be interested - @LoliLux The most important takeaway in my opinion is the timing, and the recents news that the US may block future aid packages, which likely prompted Ukraine to adopt a somehow more appeasing attitude in regards to its minorities and the EU. Interestingly the law doesn’t effect the Russian language, but I would be lying if I said I particularly cared about that.

[Ayesha Erotica 1,924]

@FfFfFfFF I was just watching a polit talk show about the upcoming EU-UKR meeting on Dec 14-15th 30 min ago and thought of you and meanwhile you created this topic.

Does this refer only to secondary schools and higher including universities - not elementary schools and kindergarten?

I think the minorities are still at disadvantage because they have to pay for it and there is a risk that their finishing school degrees might not be recognized officially as equivalent to state-ones. Real minority respect would be to establish some public schools in their languages.

Imo, the minorities in Ukraine now only get the rights that in liberal countries have been standard: anyone in the West can make a private school/uni and choose freely the language, it can be any language in the world, not limited to EU ones.

This isn't really special minority rights. This is more like "basics of a liberal capitalist society".

Also who is gonna pay for it? Hungary? Romania? the minorities themselves? is it any realistic? they are sometimes/often not rich enough and they may still opt for a UKR one, if the next school is 30km away.

And for university there needs to be a larger catchment area and a minimum of 500,000-1,000,000 people very well speaking this language living in this area for a broader range of subjects.  University of Galati is "stealing" and infringing into the catchment area of nearby Ukraine in Budjak because of its geographic proximity, it will allure people from there and then there will be no sufficient numbers to create a uni, and the other languages don't have enough local speakers for a uni.

Also: Only UKR and EU-languages allowed: does this mean NO English? (Malta and Ireland did NOT declare English as their "EU language" - they felt no need to as the UK already did it, and once the UK left, no country has English declared as its EU language)

"“We have a regulation … where every EU country has the right to notify one official language,” Hübner said. “The Irish have notified Gaelic, and the Maltese have notified Maltese, so you have only the U.K. notifying English.”

“If we don’t have the U.K., we don’t have English,” Hübner said."

https://www.politico.eu/article/english-will-not-be-an-official-eu-language-after-brexit-senior-mep/

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EDIT: Now that Hungary got what it wanted, we are waiting for France to find a pathetic excuse why Ukraine can't join - though, France might wait for other countries to impose extra wish  before it will - it will be the last.

 

[Illuminati 15,965]

11 minutes ago, LoliLux said:

Also: Only UKR and EU-languages allowed: does this mean NO English? (Malta and Ireland did NOT declare English as their "EU language" - they felt no need to as the UK already did it, and once the UK left, no country has English declared as its EU language)

"“We have a regulation … where every EU country has the right to notify one official language,” Hübner said. “The Irish have notified Gaelic, and the Maltese have notified Maltese, so you have only the U.K. notifying English.”

“If we don’t have the U.K., we don’t have English,” Hübner said."

https://www.politico.eu/article/english-will-not-be-an-official-eu-language-after-brexit-senior-mep/

It's still one of the official languages.

[Magic Mike 2,763]

OK good but make it to the public schools as well I mean 

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@LoliLux I agree we are talking about basic democratic measures, but hey, they are something and something is more than nothing. That being said, I do expect the media friendly to the government parties in Romania hail the development as some kind of breakthrough that solves all disputes- the fanfare will be comical to see. 

The amendments say little about pre-university schools, only that minority pupils who started secondary education before 2018 have the right to continue to learn in their languages (the ones after will be still learn in Ukrainian according to the new version of the law). 

The plan is for minority languages to be phased out in secondary education, but in elementary school pupils can stil learn in their native language according to the law adopted din 2017...  Still, the new amendments are a far cry from Hungary's demands so Macron got nothing to worry about.  (Ukraine coud implement monolingual schools for the Hungarian community and Orban will probably still oppose its membership!!)

I believe there are English-taught universities in Ukraine, but to be honest I am less concerned about universities, because 1) not everybody goes to university; 2) universities are less relevant for actual language-learning. It's primary and secondary education that is essential in making sure minorities will be able to speak their language and retain their identity. The fact that children of ethnic minorities will not be able to go to highschool and learn their native languages is likewise concerning because in highschool one develops the ability to write fluent essays, to read the first serious books etc. 

On the inroads made by Romanian universities in Ukraine - you have to keep in mind ethic minorities are subjected to martial law (so males of ethnic minorities background cannot leave Ukraine), on the other hand there are native Ukraininians who learn Romanian to get degrees in Romania, as they are recognized across the entire EU. Both Galați and Suceava in fact attract Ukrainian students (Galați mostly from Budjak and Suceava from Chernivtsi, I actually even remember that a few years ago I looked up on stats and there were even Ukrainian students from Donbas learning at the University of Suceava).

Lastly I will make a note about the status of the Rusyin language. The Hungarian, Romanian and Bulgarian communities at the very least have an advocate trying to pressure Ukraine into reversing its policies, but the Rusyins are a stateless people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyn_language#Contemporary_status). Despite their name they are not really related to the Russians, and will be probably the first ethnicity to lose its unique identity and language.

Spoiler

Also, to answer you other question, the schools themselves are financed from the Ukrainian budget, with Romania sending ocasionally money. Hungary is likewise known for sending money to the Hungarians abroad so I am 99% sure schools in Zakarpattia receive money from Budapest.

 

[Ayesha Erotica 1,924]

22 hours ago, FfFfFfFF said:

@LoliLux

 Still, the new amendments are a far cry from Hungary's demands so Macron got nothing to worry about.  (Ukraine coud implement monolingual schools for the Hungarian community and Orban will probably still oppose its membership!!)

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Also, to answer you other question, the schools themselves are financed from the Ukrainian budget, with Romania sending ocasionally money. Hungary is likewise known for sending money to the Hungarians abroad so I am 99% sure schools in Zakarpattia receive money from Budapest.

The EU and Mercosur (Brazil, Argentine, Paraguay, Uruguay, Bolivia) are in the process of making a free trade deal treaty and Macron opposed the treaty and wants it to be amendend (in his favor) and he said that the free trade deal is counterproductive for climate change and therefore he is against it in its current form. However, the real reason why he said that is because Merocur's agriculture business is superior to France agriculture and they are gonna flood the French and EU market with cheaper products. This is actually a similair reason why Macron doesn't want Ukraine to be in. But France can still be overvoted. I don't know if Hungary's pre-occupation with its minorities is a real concern for them or just a pretext not to let Ukraine in, it is easier to tell with France.

Hungary's behavior is actually counterproductive for the long-term perspectives of local residents: Hungary is giving them EU passports and then they come into EU - and then they are missing to support minority community structures.

"And leave they do. According to the last Ukrainian census, back in 2001, there were 151,500 Hungarians in Transcarpathia, which was then 12% of its population. By 2017 a survey found that the number had dropped to 131,000. Now, says Mr Zubanics, the figure for those remaining has fallen to 75,000-85,000. For years it has been easy for Transcarpathian Hungarians to emigrate anywhere in the EU, as Hungary has given them passports."

https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/03/16/ethnic-hungarians-have-been-having-a-tricky-time-in-ukraine

I don't know about the numbers for others but they likewise likely have also sharply dropped by now in 2023. In the long-run these communities will fade out and/or assimilate. They have no future.

85,000 Hungarian speakers: That is basically just three high schools and six elementary schools to serve them. This is not worth that much attention that Orban is paying to them as a nation's president.

[PartySick 172,394]

If Ukraine betters itself to retain international support, I see no problems

[bionic 50,111]

It is a tiny concession and not really enough to remotely address the problem of the 2017 provision

[dit 46,738]

Still not enough imo. Also what about Tatar. Isn't there like 250k Tatar speakers in Ukraine still?  Hope they get some more rights too

[Ayesha Erotica 1,924]

I am just watching my favorite TV Channel NHK World Japan. It is about Istvan Lorincz, a Pastor in charge of Botanical Blessings in Hokkaido. Totally surprising und unexpectedly he suddenly started speaking of his past which is relevant for this topic.

Istvan Lorincz is a Hungarian who was living in Romania.

He said that he was beaten in Romania because he spoke Hungarian:

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/ondemand/video/2087109/

starts at minute 5:07, turn on English subtitles or listen in English. 

He was then called to conscription draft in Romania and escaped via a train to Budapest. Very dark times in Romania. He then went from Hungary to Japan, Hokkaido to study plants and then offering botanical spiritual service.  It was a good decision not to go to military draft and indstead start this new more fulfilling life in Hokkaido.

 

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@LoliLux Fun fact: I believe I have a great-great grandparent with Hungarian origins on my mother’s side That being said, I know less about the ins and outs of the Hungarian schools in Ukraine because of the language barrier. 

But like Hungary, I know Romania gives citizenship to Romanians in Ukraine and other ex-Soviet republics, with the argument that Romanians in these countries didn’t emigrate out of Romania. They didn’t move out, other countries moved their borders to include them, so from Bucharest’s and Budapest's view they have a right to at least acquire their nation-state’s citizenship.

Spoiler

Generally speaking, Romania is generous when it comes to this. Rumor has it there are genealogists in Russia one can paid to create fake family records for Russians to get Romanian citizenship (this is credible because many Romanians were deported to Siberia and the Far East during the times of the USSR and records get fuzzy in this regard).

The Romanian schools in Ukraine are concentrated in 3 regions across the Romania-Ukraine border: most of them are in Cernăuți (Chernivtsi) oblast, second in eastern Transcarpatia and lastly Budjak or southern Bessarabia - highlited the map to show them.

Quick stats - After the annexation of Chernivtsi from Romania to the Ukrainian Soviet Social Republic, the number of ethnic Romanians decreased by 75.000 bc of many were killed or ilegally crossed into Romania. In 1940-1941 there were 114 Romanian schools in Cernăuți (Chernivtsi). As a result of ethnic cleansing, the Fântâna Albă incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fântâna_Albă_incident, forced deportations and the colonization of Ukrainians from other parts of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, the number fell to 92 (83 fully Romanian and 9 mixed). By 2016, the number further fell to 81 (63 Romanian and 18 mixed). As we speak there are 47 Romanian schools and 17 mixed ones. Outside Chernivtsi, there are 12 Romanian schools in Transcarpatia and 3 so-called ''Moldovan'' (euphemism for Romanian) schools in Budjak.

Spoiler

Another issue is the usage of ‘’Moldovan’’ label for some Romanian communities, which artificially separates the communities into 2 distinct populations. In his visit to Romania, Zelensky said he will no longer abide by this separation which was introduced by the Soviets to saw divisions among ethnic Romanians, yet no concrete measures were taken. The textbooks in Budjak still make note of ''the Moldovan language'' instead of ''Romanian'' - I suspect you already know there is no such thing and that Moldovans speak Romanian.

In 2016-2017, there were 1.217 classes of pupils learning in Romanian (881 in Chernivtsi, 163 in Transcarpatia, 173 in Budjak/ southern Bessarabia) - accounting to around around 19.000 pupils - compare this with more than 36.000 pupils in 2001-2002. Since the 1940 annexation, the reality is that minorities in Ukraine face challenges of assimilation, they are incentivised to switch from their native languages to Ukrainian and eventually lose their ethnic identity - the numbers sadly prove this. As of now, worryingly even though Romanians make up 20% of the population of Chernivtsi, only 1% of their Google searches are in Romanian. This is why the 2017 law is the last nail in the coffin and why Romania and Hungary are so involved into the issue - the endgoal for Ukraine is the complete assimilation of these territories.

Besides the Romanians living in the borderlands in Ukraine there used to be rural populations of Romanians in distant places around the southern Bug, the Dnieper, Donbas and Volhyn and even Crimea, but they were the first to lose their identity and switch to Russian or Ukrainian (I believe the war ultimately made the last of them extinct).

@PartySick tagging you because this add more context about these policies  @dit I looked it up and there are no schools teaching in Tatar in Ukraine, only a school with optional Tatar classes in Novooleksiivska (Kherson oblast). But it's not like the Tatars living in Crimea have it easy - which is even more unfortunate considering Crimea is home to the main bulk of surviving Crimean Tatar communities, unfortunately Kherson too was hit pretty badly by the war.

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14 hours ago, LoliLux said:

I am just watching my favorite TV Channel NHK World Japan. It is about Istvan Lorincz, a Pastor in charge of Botanical Blessings in Hokkaido. Totally surprising und unexpectedly he suddenly started speaking of his past which is relevant for this topic.

Istvan Lorincz is a Hungarian who was living in Romania.

 

Unfortunately there have been many episodes of tension between Hungarians and Romanians (peaking in WW2 when Horthy's Hungary annexed northern Trasylvania with a resurgence after the Romanian Revolution in 1991 - for a second it seems like Romania was going to join the USSR and Yugoslavia and descend into civil and ethnic conflicts. ) But luckily it didn't happen, otherwise Romania probably  would not have made it to the EU and progress economically to the extent it was able to. 

Something RO did to mitigate these tensions is to allow Hungarians in Romanian to have education in their language (part of why Ukraine should also allow its minorities the same rights). Also, in Romania ethnic minorities have their own parties and they have reserved seats in the Romanian Parlament, plus the Hungarian party UDMR is virtually always in governance - which became a meme in Romanian politics.

[Dennis 8,391]

20 hours ago, bionic said:

It is a tiny concession and not really enough to remotely address the problem of the 2017 provision

2017 provision established a state language that tax-payer funded public schools must use, something common in pretty much most of Europe. The French don't have public elementary and/or secondary schools teaching in Arabic, despite 20% of their population or so being Arabs. Same thing with Germany, they don't have public elementary schools teaching in Turkish, despite a major Turkish minority.

Please educate yourself on the matter before criticizing a country which already has many problems right now.  If you're gonna have a workforce graduating with a curriculum taught in so many different languages rather than the state language, then you're gonna have trouble integrating them in the market. 

The reason Ukraine amended the laws is just to show the world that Hungary is finding excuses to block accession. And it's exactly what's gonna happen. Despite this change, Hungary will continue to object. 

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1 hour ago, Dennis said:

2017 provision established a state language that tax-payer funded public schools must use, something common in pretty much most of Europe. The French don't have public elementary and/or secondary schools teaching in Arabic, despite 20% of their population or so being Arabs. Same thing with Germany, they don't have public elementary schools teaching in Turkish, despite a major Turkish minority.

Please educate yourself on the matter before criticizing a country which already has many problems right now.  If you're gonna have a workforce graduating with a curriculum taught in so many different languages rather than the state language, then you're gonna have trouble integrating them in the market. 

The reason Ukraine amended the laws is just to show the world that Hungary is finding excuses to block accession. And it's exactly what's gonna happen. Despite this change, Hungary will continue to object. 

Why don't you educate yourself and learn that Arabs and Turks in France and Germany are immigrants as opposed to Ukraine's indigenous minorities which lived in their respective areas that are now part of Ukraine for centuries or thousands of years?

Ukraine barely touched upon Hungary and Romania's concerns with this amendment, so the fact that Hungary will still oppose won't prove anything to anybody. If Ukraine met Romania and Hungary's demands then we're talking - but it didn't. Instead it goes ahead with a policy of ethno-linguistic assimilation rightfully recognized as discriminatory by the EU.

Here's a link that you can use for education purposes: hhhttps://assembly.coe.int/nw/xml/xref/xref-xml2html-en.asp?fileid=24218&lang=en

If ethnic Hungarians and Romanian send their tax money to Kyiv, then they should have the right to receive education in their own ethnic language.