Far-right wins election in the Netherlands

[Varys 30,916]

38 minutes ago, 053Timo said:

Not true, he wants to ban Islamic schools, the Quran and mosques. Not the Islam in general. 

Well that basically banning the religion if u don’t allow them their holy book and their place of worship?

[Dutch 95,704]

2 hours ago, Bat said:

the problems that real people face outside the big cities.

Hi. A real Dutch person living outside the big cities speaking. Can you tell me what problems I’m supposed to have?

[Dennis 8,391]

2 hours ago, 053Timo said:

Not true, he wants to ban Islamic schools, the Quran and mosques. Not the Islam in general. 

This is discriminatory though. I think religious institutions should be supervised by the state and extremist ones should be shut down if they violate the law. But banning places of worship systematically is not okay.

Moderate muslims who do not violate the law in anyway should be able to purchase their holy book and pray in their mosque. 
 

[Dennis 8,391]

11 hours ago, FfFfFfFF said:

Don't you know Americans know more about the intricacies of your region/ country than you do? This is a regular motif.

Apparently we shouldn't be able to call certain policies discriminatory if we don't live in Europe. It's interesting, because just few days ago you were calling Ukraine an "ethno-state" based on some problems Romanians have there. But a party winning on the basis of banning an entire religion is apparently something we can't comment on?

[FfFfFfFF 58,135]

10 hours ago, Dennis said:

Apparently we shouldn't be able to call certain policies discriminatory if we don't live in Europe. It's interesting, because just few days ago you were calling Ukraine an "ethno-state" based on some problems Romanians have there. But a party winning on the basis of banning an entire religion is apparently something we can't comment on?

I am Romanian so I am allowed to have an opinion on Ukraine's policies towards its ethnic minorities because I speak one of the languages of said minorities and I have access to their press and news articles. 

Also perplexing how the treatment of Muslims in Denmark is suddenly a concern, while Muslims in other parts of the world are literally exterminated as we speak and some even justify their ethnic cleansing.

[Micmaky 917]

9 hours ago, Dennis said:

This is discriminatory though. I think religious institutions should be supervised by the state and extremist ones should be shut down if they violate the law. But banning places of worship systematically is not okay.

Moderate muslims who do not violate the law in anyway should be able to purchase their holy book and pray in their mosque. 
 

There no such thing as moderate Muslims though. The imams are very clear there’s only a narrow view of what a Muslim is. 

[Head Empty 26,989]

18 minutes ago, Micmaky said:

There no such thing as moderate Muslims though.

I am sceptical about all forms of religion but this claim is laughably short sighted.

[Micmaky 917]

1 hour ago, Head Empty said:

I am sceptical about all forms of religion but this claim is laughably short sighted.

It isn’t. I come from a country with millions of Muslims. There’s no such thing as “progressive” Muslims. People who we know as progressive would be jailed in their country. 90% of Muslim migrants consider themselves to be conservative Muslims.
If you don’t agree, look at the stats in Uk. 30% want more than one wife, a majority believe that women should always obey a man no matter what and for the gays:

“ Muslims were asked whether they agreed or disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, 18% said they agreed and 52% said they disagreed, compared with 5% among the public at large who disagreed. Almost half (47%) said they did not agree that it was acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher, compared with 14% of the general population”

This is a survey from first, second and third generation migrants. The results would be far more extreme for new migrants 

[Head Empty 26,989]

18 minutes ago, Micmaky said:

It isn’t. I come from a country with millions of Muslims. There’s no such thing as “progressive” Muslims. People who we know as progressive would be jailed in their country. 90% of Muslim migrants consider themselves to be conservative Muslims.
If you don’t agree, look at the stats in Uk. 30% want more than one wife, a majority believe that women should always obey a man no matter what and for the gays:

“ Muslims were asked whether they agreed or disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, 18% said they agreed and 52% said they disagreed, compared with 5% among the public at large who disagreed. Almost half (47%) said they did not agree that it was acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher, compared with 14% of the general population”

This is a survey from first, second and third generation migrants. The results would be far more extreme for new migrants 

Your initial statement was "There's no such thing as moderate Muslims"

Now you're trying to back it up with statistics that also show that part of the Muslim community (even if it's a minority) is open to more progressive societal ideology. Thus disproving your own point 

Making black/white statements won't help anyone when the reality of the issue is much more complex.

Your lived experience might tell you one thing. My lived experience (as a white, gay, atheist male in The Netherlands) has shown me that there are plenty Muslims who are happily adapting their faith to fit a multi-cultural society. And who definitely don't push their beliefs on others. Your statistics back that up - even if the progress is slow.

And let's not forget how much violence and prejudice Christianity caused in Europe only a few centuries ago. Religions don't evolve overnight, but they DO evolve as people widen their views.

That said, I'm not claiming to know the right way to go about immigration. But I do know that nuance is needed.

[Micmaky 917]

33 minutes ago, Head Empty said:

 

Now you're trying to back it up with statistics that also show that part of the Muslim community (even if it's a minority) is open to more progressive societal ideology. Thus disproving your own point 

 

 

 

I appreciate the irony of  a white person trying to lecture a POC who has lived with millions of Muslims for half his life.

18% of Muslims saying that gays shouldnt be jailed is NOT progressive. That’s a basic human right. We aren’t even talking about gay marriage we are talking about the criminalisation of gays and you call that progressive views. 
secondly, the point I made and maybe I should reiterate, I’m talking about new migrants. New migrants come from countries where there are 2 types of Muslims, Sunni and Shia. There’s not such this as “progressive” Muslims.

 

The reason I took statistics from the UK and not Saudi Arabia was to show you that even second, third and fourth Gen Muslims still mostly hold extremely backward views. These are children and grandchildren of migrants who have may not have even been to their ancestral land and still believe that gays should be jailed. Unlike Christianity and many other religions it is the slowest to become progressive. The birth rate of Muslims are also extremely high which means that their European population (Europeans have the lowest birth rates in the world) will reach 30%-40% by 2050. Im sorry if you are happy for a progressive continent to be destroyed by religion (talking about what Christians did centuries ago is irrelevant. I’m against most organised religions anyway so if Christians are fundamentalists we need to fight against that too) 

[Head Empty 26,989]

1 hour ago, Micmaky said:

I appreciate the irony of  a white person trying to lecture a POC who has lived with millions of Muslims for half his life.

18% of Muslims saying that gays shouldnt be jailed is NOT progressive. That’s a basic human right. We aren’t even talking about gay marriage we are talking about the criminalisation of gays and you call that progressive views. 
secondly, the point I made and maybe I should reiterate, I’m talking about new migrants. New migrants come from countries where there are 2 types of Muslims, Sunni and Shia. There’s not such this as “progressive” Muslims.

 

The reason I took statistics from the UK and not Saudi Arabia was to show you that even second, third and fourth Gen Muslims still mostly hold extremely backward views. These are children and grandchildren of migrants who have may not have even been to their ancestral land and still believe that gays should be jailed. Unlike Christianity and many other religions it is the slowest to become progressive. The birth rate of Muslims are also extremely high which means that their European population (Europeans have the lowest birth rates in the world) will reach 30%-40% by 2050. Im sorry if you are happy for a progressive continent to be destroyed by religion (talking about what Christians did centuries ago is irrelevant. I’m against most organised religions anyway so if Christians are fundamentalists we need to fight against that too) 

We share in our distaste in (organised) religion, and I would never be inclined to call religion progressive as an institution.

All I'm saying is that parts of the Muslim community have shown to become more progressive over time - same as other religions. That includes many individuals who are supporting the LGBTQ+ community. The color of my own skin is irrelevant in that observation.

Again, I'm not disregarding the fact that large parts of Islam aren't progressive. Which should definitely be addressed, just like with other religions. But there are plenty of individuals that are both Muslim (or their own, new version of Muslim) and progressive.

[Micmaky 917]

8 minutes ago, Head Empty said:

We share in our distaste in (organised) religion, and I would never be inclined to call religion progressive as an institution.

All I'm saying is that parts of the Muslim community have shown to become more progressive over time - same as other religions. That includes many individuals who are supporting the LGBTQ+ community. The color of my own skin is irrelevant in that observation.

Again, I'm not disregarding the fact that large parts of Islam aren't progressive. Which should definitely be addressed, just like with other religions. But there are plenty of individuals that are both Muslim (or their own, new version of Muslim) and progressive.

If there are so many so called progressive Muslims, how come only 18% in the whole of UK don’t want gay people jailed or killed? That’s not very progressive. Keep in mind that the UK is a country with the most Muslim migrants and multiple generations of migrants. You keep claiming about all these progressive Muslims but the figures don’t match. 
The truth is you have met a few progressive people (they would not be considered Muslim if they were in their own country) and think a majority will become that in the future. Here’s the hard truth, the religion is extremely insular, they have their own schools, own teachings and your are in lalaland if you think they are going to become progressive anytime soon. As a gay person you of all people should be worried about the future of your country. 

[Head Empty 26,989]

Just now, Micmaky said:

If there are so many so called progressive Muslims, how come only 18% in the whole of UK don’t want gay people jailed or killed? That’s not very progressive. Keep in mind that the UK is a country with the most Muslim migrants and multiple generations of migrants. You keep claiming about all these progressive Muslims but the figures don’t match. 
The truth is you have met a few progressive people (they would not be considered Muslim if they were in their own country) and think a majority will become that in the future. Here’s the hard truth, the religion is extremely insular, they have their own schools, own teachings and your are in lalaland if you think they are going to become progressive anytime soon. As a gay person you of all people should be worried about the future of your country. 

You're putting words in my mouth. I don't expect the entire religion to change overnight or within a few years. I also acknowledged the fact that the more progressive part of the religion, is a minority.

I merely try to acknowledge those who are progressive, instead of claiming they don't exist. Nothing more.

[Micmaky 917]

5 minutes ago, Head Empty said:

You're putting words in my mouth. I don't expect the entire religion to change overnight or within a few years. I also acknowledged the fact that the more progressive part of the religion, is a minority.

I merely try to acknowledge those who are progressive, instead of claiming they don't exist. Nothing more.

I never said they don’t exist. Just to be clear and I already said this twice, I’m talking about new migrants. There’s no such thing as being progressive because that doesn’t not exist in the countries they come from. What you consider progressive are those who would be jailed or excommunicated in their home country. Did you know in a survey 0% of Muslim Americans identified as queer? If the religion had even a semblance of progressiveness young people would not be in fear to come out.
As a lefty my whole life I actually think you can’t  be left wing and pro Muslim. 

[Oriane 22,779]

6 hours ago, Micmaky said:

There no such thing as moderate Muslims though. 

 

14 minutes ago, Micmaky said:

I never said they don’t exist.