Taylor Swift’s ‘Cruel Summer’ hits no. 1 on Billboard Hot 100

[AnglerfishbraBENUS 5,734]

On 10/29/2023 at 12:36 AM, MonsterofFame said:

Receipts please. Otherwise you just sound like another Madonna stan in denial of new talent eclipsing her.

Culturally and sales-wise, Taylor has reached and even surpassed the level of 2009-2011 era Gaga and 80's/90's Madonna.

The music industry has never seen anything like this. And no artist EVER has been able to generate this kind of interest in old material and re-releases. 

I'm not a Swiftie but Taylor's plateau right now is unbelievable. It's exciting to watch and reminds me of watching Gaga break records back in the day 

it’s actually pretty crazy. the fact that she is bringing all her music into the present and making it relevant and sort of necessary to listen to… most casual GP listeners could never even name more than maybe 2 of a famous artist’s albums

[MonsterofFame 1,785]

On 10/30/2023 at 11:42 PM, AnglerfishbraBENUS said:

it’s actually pretty crazy. the fact that she is bringing all her music into the present and making it relevant and sort of necessary to listen to… most casual GP listeners could never even name more than maybe 2 of a famous artist’s albums

Right? There is so much discussion and hype going around each of her new releases that it sort of requires you to listen if you want to know what everyone is talking about. 

[MonsterofFame 1,785]

On 10/30/2023 at 8:26 AM, Ziggy said:

If you think anyone is taking over like Madonna did in her 80s/90s peak…girl idk what to tell you lmao there’s really no equivalency bc she achieved that in an era of mostly analog media. Not to diminish Taylor’s obvious success, but more to contextualize Madonna’s. There was no blueprint to follow (kinda Cher but not really). Media had never been saturated as it had in that time between Madonna, Prince, and Michael. I won’t speak to sales as that honestly isn’t suuuuper important at this juncture, but Madonna is Madonna for a reason. To be as well known as she was in her time without the internet? We really cannot conceive the kind of power you needed to do that and I think if you asked anyone then if anyone TODAY was on that level they’d say no. Not Taylor, not Beyoncé, not Gaga. All successful, but that era laid the groundwork for so much of that generation’s successes in a way that just can’t be compared.

Sorry, but you're trying to say Madonna is superior while using entirely different criteria to evaluate her success against Taylor's. 
 

I could just as easily diminish Madonna's accomplishments by saying that in the world of analog media, it was easier to get success since your exposure was controlled and backed almost entirely by radio, label, and music industry promotion and payola. Social media changed all that and it's why formerly guaranteed successful artists like Katy and Miley are struggling to maintain the spotlight.

How can you say sales doesn't matter when that's the primary indicator for success with anybody? And I could even go far as to say that it was easier for Madonna to sell albums because you were forced to buy an entire album instead of cherry picking singles and songs via iTunes or streaming. 
 

Taylor's effect on pop culture is just as large as Madonna's. The only difference is that she hasn't needed to use controversy and sex to achieve that. So in my opinion, what Taylor has achieved is even more noteworthy since she didn't have to use these timeless tricks. 

[MonsterofFame 1,785]

On 10/30/2023 at 12:52 AM, 4th Street said:

 I assume Taylor Swift is bigger than Michael Jackson or Beatles in your opinion also? Being a stan or not being a stan has nothing to do with recognizing cultural influence, album sales or critical acclaim. MJ, Beatles and Madonna exceed Taylor Swift in all three of those catogories, one does not need to be a stan to recognize something very obvious. She will never be as important as true pioneers like that, you know the ones who literally built the sandbox that Taylor Swift is playing in now, only difference is that those acts achieved unrivaled commercial peaks before the streaming era was a thing and they are not fake performative activists like Taylor who pander to whatever will benefit her career. Looking through your comment history I can clearly see that seemingly 90% of it is consumed with saying Gaga is miserable with her fame, done with music and desperately trying to remind us that Taylor is as big as MJ and The Beatles, you should be the last one criticising someone for stanning anything. For someone who claims not to be a Swiftie, you sure can't stop talking about her can you? Now that you have received a proper dressing down, learn to respond to another person's opinions in respectful ways rather than telling me what to do

Because it's so frustrating to see people like you put others success down while being so ignorant in doing do. Like who do you think you are?

Taylor has pioneered the music industry in her own way, and you're comparing her to ways Madonna and MJ did which is completely irrelevant because what Taylor is doing is entirely new. 
 

MJ pioneered the idea of a music video and dance being used to tell a story. 
Madonna pioneered the idea of using extreme fashion and visuals to supplement her music. 
Taylor pioneered the idea of using very personal storytelling and developing a unique relationship with her fanbase to garner interest in her music. No artist has ever re-recorded their entire catalog and bringing decades old songs into present day relevancy.

 

Wherever you want to admit it or not, Taylor has carved her own path and what she did is on the level of relevancy and success of Madonna and MJ.

And when you try to deny that while not using any specific reasons or examples to support your statement, you just sound stupid. 

[4th Time Around 4,170]

23 minutes ago, MonsterofFame said:

 

Wherever you want to admit it or not, Taylor has carved her own path and what she did is on the level of relevancy and success of Madonna and MJ.

And when you try to deny that while not using any specific reasons or examples to support your statement, you just sound stupid. 

I never tried to deny that Taylor is a huge artist right now, all I said was that her peak will never equal that of Madonna, The Beatles or Michael Jackson, artists who defined popular music in ways that Taylor never will. Its not enough for Swifties that Taylor is a massively successful artist who has won the war when it comes to owning her own work. No, everyone needs to accept that she is as influental as The Beatles or we are all just stupid haters. Taylors ability to forge a unique relationship with her fans and re-record her albums has resulted in a massive boost in her commercial success, none of which has anything to do with critical acclaim, redefining or changing the course of popular music, ways in which albums are created, music videos and live performances.

[4th Time Around 4,170]

BTW, I don't dislike everything Taylor has done. Red TV and Folklore/Evermore are good albums that I own on vinyl. Unfortunately, Taylor had to go and **** the bed with some of the most mediocre songwriting of her entire career on Midnights.

[Ziggy 11,329]

13 hours ago, MonsterofFame said:

Sorry, but you're trying to say Madonna is superior while using entirely different criteria to evaluate her success against Taylor's. 
 

I could just as easily diminish Madonna's accomplishments by saying that in the world of analog media, it was easier to get success since your exposure was controlled and backed almost entirely by radio, label, and music industry promotion and payola. Social media changed all that and it's why formerly guaranteed successful artists like Katy and Miley are struggling to maintain the spotlight.

How can you say sales doesn't matter when that's the primary indicator for success with anybody? And I could even go far as to say that it was easier for Madonna to sell albums because you were forced to buy an entire album instead of cherry picking singles and songs via iTunes or streaming. 
 

Taylor's effect on pop culture is just as large as Madonna's. The only difference is that she hasn't needed to use controversy and sex to achieve that. So in my opinion, what Taylor has achieved is even more noteworthy since she didn't have to use these timeless tricks. 

But Taylor didn’t just exist in streams hence why I mentioned a medium they both existed in lol Taylor didn’t suddenly pop up in streaming so she’s not really worth mentioning as a “streaming artist.” She’s an artist who has adapted well to the new means of distribution, but she’s not like Olivia rodrigo or something lol 

also not the slut shaming of Madonna using sex lmao tricks? Lord above the sexism is oozing out of that statement. Though IF we want to go there, it was no timeless trick. Madonna MADE IT such a move and was hated for it and still made her career. I’m not diminishing Taylor’s success remotely but Madonna was THE trail blazer for modern pop. Period. While you slut shame her for how she got ahead and made her mark, she led the charge of her generation of women to do what they’re able to do today. Got an issue with a sex positive pop star? Weird because Taylor, Beyoncé, Gaga, point blank period would NOT be the businesswomen they are without Madonna being the mould first.
 

Showing proper reverence doesn’t diminish these women’s shine as they’ve done their own work to open doors for others but make no mistake. If you asked THEM they’d say they’re indebted to Madonna. THAT is what I mean by cultural impact.

hell, even from a musical standpoint, Madonna was synonymous with tastemaker for decades. She pulled inspo from genres and brought them to pop and created ERAS to be had. the tour Taylor is on? Eras? That quite literally was a Madonna concept. And again, because you seem to take it there, this is no dog at Taylor whatsoever. I’m no Madonna stan but acknowledging that she (and soon after Janet Jackson) are the blueprint for the women of today is no dog at the women of today.

That you think that is hella sexist bc you’re basically leaning on the trope of only one woman can be at the top. Many can. Many are. And of the many who are, their success is bc of Madonna creating the cultural impact and taking on the responsibility of being a trail blazer when she was. Like, idk what else to say but open a history book and also show respect for history. To diminish Madonna’s absolutely mind boggling career to sex and cheap tricks is so gross.

If that’s all Madonna was she wouldn’t be an icon. There’s too much sexism and ageism historically and now for that to be possible. She’s weathered it, much like Gaga, because her stuff goes deeper than shock value marketing tactics. That you can’t see that is both sad and insulting to her legacy of music. I’m not tearing Taylor down. That mfer *is* astronomically successful. It shouldn’t impact that remotely to say that Madonna opened doors for her to be that successful—many did it for Madonna as well. That’s called progress. But when you try to position one person as above all the rest bc you’re knee deep in their very brilliantly marketed fandom, that’s just being plainly dishonest to the context that artist exists in.

you think Beyoncé feels slighted when someone says she wouldn’t be where she is without Diana Ross and Tina Turner and Janet? No she accepts that praise bc it’s both true and it’s an honor to be thought of in the larger legacy of women in music.

[Bronco 8,776]

14 hours ago, MonsterofFame said:

The only difference is that she hasn't needed to use controversy and sex to achieve that.

Reputation. 

The re-recordings. 

PR relationships. 

I love Taylor, but to say she hasn't needed controversy or sex to achieve her fame is naive. Like have people forgotten how much the media industry was turning on her & how she was the focal point of so much social media hate prior to Reputation? 

There's also the clear marketisation of certain break ups (a form of controversy in terms of media management) to sell music. The 23 second phone call, the whole thing with Dear John. 

And lets not forget the biggest controversy - Scooter ****ing Braun. 

I mean Taylor has obviously not released a book of soft core ****. But she's very much followed Madonna's route to success, just slightly reframed. 

Madonna built a career out of being seen as the "outsider" of the industry taking on the "man" & adopting her controversial fighter image. Taylor has similarly built her success on the same model of taking on the the industry/the "man" but where as Madonna's highly cultivated image had her as a risk taking fighter pushing boundaries, Taylor's often taken on the image of the victim pushing back. 

[Tinnitus15 51,167]

Some of y’all will NOT accept the fact Taylor’s on her way to become a legend too. Like this pisses you off. Miss girlie is 100m units from surpassing Madonna. Won’t be surprised if she does it in the next 5-10 years 

[Ziggy 11,329]

On 11/2/2023 at 8:28 AM, Tinnitus15 said:

Some of y’all will NOT accept the fact Taylor’s on her way to become a legend too. Like this pisses you off. Miss girlie is 100m units from surpassing Madonna. Won’t be surprised if she does it in the next 5-10 years 

Yeahhhhhh she has sold a ton but let’s not make equivalencies bc the way we consume music now is jsut so different. Streaming aside, it’s WAY more personalized now whereas in Madonna’s era the hits from anyone permeated culture. Hell, Taylor’s earlier hits even did that as recently as something like shake it off or blank space bc the industry hadn’t gotten SO personalized yet. I just think pure numbers comparisons don’t actually provide all that much insight into popularity bc these days algorithms could make it where you’ve never even heard the #1 song in the country. I mean, hello, bad romance hit #2 yet is one of the most iconic singles of the 21st century so far?

so the surpassing or not seems kinda irrelevant when it’s valid enough to just say holy sh!t this lady is successful

[Bronco 8,776]

2 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Yeahhhhhh she has sold a ton but let’s not make equivalencies bc the way we consume music now is jsut so different. Streaming aside, it’s WAY more personalized now whereas in Madonna’s era the hits from anyone permeated culture. Hell, Taylor’s earlier hits even did that as recently as something like shake it off or blank space bc the industry hadn’t gotten SO personalized yet. I just think pure numbers comparisons don’t actually provide all that much insight into popularity bc these days algorithms could make it where you’ve never even heard the #1 song in the country. I mean, hello, bad romance hit #2 yet is one of the most iconic singles of the 21st century so far?

so the surpassing or not seems kinda irrelevant when it’s valid enough to just say holy sh!t this lady is successful

Yeah 100%. 

So many acts get number 1s that no one besides fans remember. Very few number 1s become iconic. And arguably are just as successfull in achieving that iconic status as lower charting songs. 

Holiday by Madonna for instance peaked on the Hot 100 at 16. Yet "This Use to be My Playground" hit 1 on the Hot 100. 
Yet which would you say is more iconic? 

 

[Evil R 1,084]

On 10/29/2023 at 2:36 AM, MonsterofFame said:

 

Culturally and sales-wise, Taylor has reached and even surpassed the level of 2009-2011 era Gaga and 80's/90's Madonna

No

[4th Time Around 4,170]

On 11/2/2023 at 6:28 AM, Tinnitus15 said:

Some of y’all will NOT accept the fact Taylor’s on her way to become a legend too. Like this pisses you off. Miss girlie is 100m units from surpassing Madonna. Won’t be surprised if she does it in the next 5-10 years 

As if record sales are a deciding factor in how much of a legend someone is or what kind of impact they had on changing the course of music. Taylor Swift fans love to brag about commercialism and stats because they can't brag about the stuff that is actually important when it comes to impacting music itself like revolutionary songwriting, pioneering visuals in terms of live performing and music videos, albums that have an impact on social issues or new musical trends, innovative production and so on. Taylor is a good songwriter (definitely not one of the all time greats) who understands marketing better than anyone which has resulted in commercial success, why can't that be enough for Swifties? you can like her music without trying to prop her up as some pioneering artist that she is not (her success with her re-recordings being the exception). She has impacted the music industry from a commercial standpoint much more than an artistic one.