Rioting In France (5th Day)

[Future Lovers 7,824]

Violence is what has won the rights of inviduals across history. Just because school only teaches you about non-violent protest doesn't mean that's what won anyone their freedom. Civil rights, gay rights, women's rights, all of it was won via violent protesting. 

[Economy 53,090]

5 minutes ago, Future Lovers said:

Violence is what has won the rights of inviduals across history. Just because school only teaches you about non-violent protest doesn't mean that's what won anyone their freedom. Civil rights, gay rights, women's rights, all of it was won via violent protesting. 

There has literally been so much advancement over the decades in LGBT and women's rights without violence as well...

 

The fact that at some times in history that's what moved the needle doesn't prove that thats the only way to move the needle all the time 

 

Maybe in situations like ending slavery when there was so much resistance. Or even women's rights when it was extremely early on

 

But I don't think the police situation is comparable at all. There is a lot of support from a lot of ppl to try and make reforms so what u need now is political pressure. I do not believe so much destruction is what's going to change matters any faster if anything u reinforce the ideas of those who say we need a strong law enforcement because ppl act out of hand

[Future Lovers 7,824]

11 minutes ago, Economy said:

There has literally been so much advancement over the decades in LGBT and women's rights without violence as well...

 

The fact that at some times in history that's what moved the needle doesn't prove that thats the only way to move the needle all the time 

 

Maybe in situations like ending slavery when there was so much resistance. Or even women's rights when it was extremely early on

 

But I don't think the police situation is comparable at all. There is a lot of support from a lot of ppl to try and make reforms so what u need now is political pressure. I do not believe so much destruction is what's going to change matters any faster if anything u reinforce the ideas of those who say we need a strong law enforcement because ppl act out of hand

That doesn't change anything about the fact that violence is what ultimately secured civil rights, women's rights, and the decriminalization of homosexuality. Simply because peaceful advancement has happened since doesn't deligitimize that. Further advancement is much easier once the most difficult thing--getting started--is out of the way. 

Violent protest is uncomfortable watch, sure. But it's necessary. If oppressors and corrupt actors don't want to listen to peace, then we have to do something that they cannot ignore. Political pressure has not worked. We have tried here in America, they've tried in France. They've been trying for decades. Politicians do not care. They can turn the other way and ignore it. 

They cannot ignore riots. I would love if we could do this peacefully, but history has shown that we can't until the needle has been moved. So far, the needle hasn't been moved by peaceful retaliation. It has to be pushed with non-peaceful retaliation. 

Violence is the language of the unheard. 

[Economy 53,090]

9 hours ago, Future Lovers said:

That doesn't change anything about the fact that violence is what ultimately secured civil rights, women's rights, and the decriminalization of homosexuality. Simply because peaceful advancement has happened since doesn't deligitimize that. Further advancement is much easier once the most difficult thing--getting started--is out of the way. 

Violent protest is uncomfortable watch, sure. But it's necessary. If oppressors and corrupt actors don't want to listen to peace, then we have to do something that they cannot ignore. Political pressure has not worked. We have tried here in America, they've tried in France. They've been trying for decades. Politicians do not care. They can turn the other way and ignore it. 

They cannot ignore riots. I would love if we could do this peacefully, but history has shown that we can't until the needle has been moved. So far, the needle hasn't been moved by peaceful retaliation. It has to be pushed with non-peaceful retaliation. 

Violence is the language of the unheard. 

But that was my point. They were extreme situations without progress and heavy resistance in the early days

 

You cannot possibly compare Police reform to women's rights or gay rights or slavery in the extremely early days when the vast majority of the population was against them

 

Literally the entire world is mad at cops rn (ok not literally everyone but you get the point) and want change. Not the same situation at all

 

Violence should always be an absolute last resort, and even when used, target it properly. As many pointed out target relevant government facilities or something. There's no reason u have to go after innocent ppls cars and businesses to get ur point across

[Guillaume Hamon 7,048]

6 hours ago, Roughhouse Dandy said:

Y'all know those stupid situations that happened in grade school where someone was getting bullied, they finally found the courage to fight back, and then the notoriously awful teacher gave the one who fought back detention instead of the bullies who instigated? 

A lot of y'all are giving off big vibes of that teacher and do in most threads. So have fun with that. Hope its fulfilling

The comparison would be logical if we were wishing the cop who did it/ government to stay free/ unpunished like "the bullies who instigated" in your example.

The bullied kids who fought back the bullies aren't blamed for it, only the bullied who took it on other bullied kids cause it ain't defeating the instigators.

[Karl 3,584]

Can't wait for my trip to Paris in a few weeks 

[LittleMonster20 9,900]

It’s not even necessarily the damage in of itself that’s problematic, it’s the fact that completely innocent and random people are going to be responsible for it or will be in trouble because of it. Store owners, people living/working in those buildings and people that own those cars that were lit on fire did nothing to deserve that. I don’t see how that’s in any way a controversial let alone ‘alt-right’ way of thinking, I don’t think anyone (especially on here) is condemning the act of protesting itself, especially given the cause.

There have got to be other ways.

[Sarah H 4,421]

Not wanting innocent people's residential buildings and property to be burnt to the ground is not 'alt-right' thinking. Come off it! 

[Guillaume Hamon 7,048]

22 minutes ago, LittleMonster20 said:

It’s not even necessarily the damage in of itself that’s problematic, it’s the fact that completely innocent and random people are going to be responsible for it or will be in trouble because of it. Store owners, people living/working in those buildings and people that own those cars that were lit on fire did nothing to deserve that. I don’t see how that’s in any way a controversial let alone ‘alt-right’ way of thinking, I don’t think anyone (especially on here) is condemning the act of protesting itself, especially given the cause.

There have got to be other ways.

 

Just now, Sarah H said:

Not wanting innocent people's residential buildings and property to be burnt to the ground is not 'alt-right' thinking. Come off it! 

I also don't know what's "alt-right" about wishing the riots would harm the ones responsible for police brutality instead of...

Well the victims of police brutality since the average user of what was burned is a poor person ( often a POC  ) living in these blocks were nearly all of police brutality happens.

[Dennis 8,391]

People who support these practices are sick.

The number of innocent lives that are endangered by this. Yesterday a baby and his mom were injured as the rioters rammed a car on fire into a mayor's house. (source) A bus carrying chinese tourists was randomly attacked endangering the lives of chinese tourists (source).

There's protesting and there's rioting. Rioting, especially against private property, residential buildings, is NEVER okay, period. You don't have a right to injure others or destroy their property.

Ghandi freed India without unjust violence. MLK further emancipated the african american community without unjust violence. Mandela liberated South Africa without unjust violence. So no, nothing warrants this. If anything, this will quickly undermine unity around the cause this is supposed to champion. This is not the way to get people to rally around police reforms.

Violence is only justified as a mean of self-defense. And you can't claim self-defense while attacking innocent bystanders, children and tourists.

[Dennis 8,391]

58 minutes ago, Guillaume Hamon said:

 

I also don't know what's "alt-right" about wishing the riots would harm the ones responsible for police brutality instead of...

Well the victims of police brutality since the average user of what was burned is a poor person ( often a POC  ) living in these blocks were nearly all of police brutality happens.

I generally agree with you, except that I don't wish harm on anyone. How do you establish that someone deserves such harm or not? The cop responsible for this? He's already arrested. Are we gonna wish harm on every single cop as a result of this? So if you're a cop that abided by laws all your life, people will now say that you deserve to have your face disfigured or shot dead because you're a cop? Is this the meaning of "justice" nowadays? I hate this mentality. It's a cancer that's spreading in America and I hope it doesn't reach Europe. Fake notion of righteousness that puts everyone in the same bag and wishes harm/death upon them.

[Dennis 8,391]

18 hours ago, MANiCURE 6 said:

I live in Bezons which is right next to Nanterre... And near my house, they've burned a school and several cars and buses, lot of shops were destroyed.. Lots of fireworks too. Some said "we'll come back for your houses" while burning a car in front of my house and destroying the other with iron bars, they also assaulted my neighbor  

I didn't sleep well for 5 days 

Yeah I'd like to see who's gonna defend this. People are like "rioting is good", but once you tell them details about what it entails and who it harms they'll suddenly flip flop "oh well not like that".

[Guillaume Hamon 7,048]

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

I generally agree with you, except that I don't wish harm on anyone. How do you establish that someone deserves such harm or not? The cop responsible for this? He's already arrested. Are we gonna wish harm on every single cop as a result of this? So if you're a cop that abided by laws all your life, people will now say that you deserve to have your face disfigured or shot dead because you're a cop? Is this the meaning of "justice" nowadays? I hate this mentality. It's a cancer that's spreading in America and I hope it doesn't reach Europe. Fake notion of righteousness that puts everyone in the same bag and wishes harm/death upon them.

Harm doesn't necessarily means physical harm and even less death.

Since it's about destroying stuffs essentially they could very well destroy these "permanences politique" ( mini-offices of a political party that are only occupied a few hours weekly ) in the middle of the night where you sure as hell won't find someone in it... That's a one-room thing so you can see it all from the window anyway, no risk to harm anyone by accident.

I know they must have insurances so I doubt it will work as a fee to pay sadly but it would at least bother their organization on top of sending a very strong message which seems to be the only way to get something out of this deaf power... I don't know if you knew but the currently running political party doesn't even try to prevent kids getting murdered over BS. Even when they finally said they would do stuffs for it years ago they didn't even bother to apply it and let it be speeches...

[PatrickMonster 6,957]

Far right parties in my country are having a field day over this… awful, absolutely awful news

[Dennis 8,391]

7 minutes ago, PatrickMonster said:

Far right parties in my country are having a field day over this… awful, absolutely awful news

Polls before the riots already have Marine Le Pen as the most likely to win the next presidency, she'd beat Macron in a run-off now. Her position as the next president of France will only be more secured after this.