Russia blows up dam to thwart Ukraine's counter-offensive, causing massive flooding

[4th Time Around 5,059]

58 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I'm sorry to say this bluntly, but please stop. You've just shown here that you don't even know enough about Ukrainian political history. Zelensky wasn't even around in 2014. He was not the president the came out of the Maidan revolution. That was  Poroshenko. Zelensky only ran for president in 2019, not 2014. 

You see what I'm saying? You can't start harmful conspiracy theories about Ukraine when you don't even know the basic facts of what's happening. It ends up harming Ukraine.

Well you got me for having a brain fart and thinking Zelensky was president in 2014, I can admit when I said something wrong. I think you have also persuaded me that Russia was the more likely culprit of wrecking this dam. I never pretended that I am some expert on Ukranian political history, I do think though that it does not really matter who Ukraine chooses as leader because either way they will end up being stuck in the orbit of either Russia or the United States and that is ultimately harmful to a country like Ukraine.

[Illuminati 15,965]

People seem to be very quick to jump to conclusions against the "mainstream media narrative" without having any interest to fact check those alternative conclusions or sources. I wouldn't have the energy to argue with every single person who's parroting already debunked pro-Russian misinformation but:

If Ukraine really wanted that dam blown up to protect Odessa they would have done it when Russia was still holding Kherson city. At this point in war Odessa is not even an objective anymore, they've been focusing on securing meters of land in the Donetsk region for over a year now.

If Ukraine wanted to merely cut off water supply to Crimea they would have done it when the dam was at a critically low water level. It's worth to note though, that prior to war Russia was capable of supplying Crimea with water even without the water from the dam.

The Russian controlled dam was blown up from inside and prior to explosion it was filled with water at extreme levels to maximize the damage. Right as Ukraine begun their offensive into the direction that the flood now cut off.

Zelensky has been trying to get international organizations to secure the dam for months with no success. Just like he got IAEA to inspect the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. Russians were found to store ammo and explosives there too.

[Dennis 8,391]

1 minute ago, 4th Street said:

Well you got me for having a brain fart and thinking Zelensky was president in 2014, I can admit when I said something wrong. I think you have also persuaded me that Russia was the more likely culprit of wrecking this dam.

I really respect your willingness to change your mind on things and I retract some of the things I said. I apologize but after seeing so much BS on this topic (like for example that recent Tucker Carlson video being promoted by Elon Musk), it upsets me and I admit that it makes me frustrated. I'm emotionally invested in this conflict and sometimes I get heated when talking about it.

[4th Time Around 5,059]

28 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I really respect your willingness to change your mind on things and I retract some of the things I said. I apologize but after seeing so much BS on this topic (like for example that recent Tucker Carlson video being promoted by Elon Musk), it upsets me and I admit that it makes me frustrated. I'm emotionally invested in this conflict and sometimes I get heated when talking about it.

Very kind of you to say, I never meant to come across as someone who is pro Putin in this conflict but I guess it could have come across that way because I was ignorant about certain facts until you it made clear to me. The sad reality is that regional nations like Ukraine have been paying the price for this tension between Russia and the United States as far back as WW2, the only difference this time is the sheer scale of the destruction and the fact that US armed intervention is looking very unlikely at this point.

[Economy 52,844]

12 hours ago, Dennis said:

Well you lost all credibility with this reply. I mean the fact that you can't even tell the difference between blowing up Nord Stream 2 which objectively helps Ukraine without harming its own citizens, and blowing up a dam that destroys Ukrainian cities  and virtually does little to no harm to Russia considering Crimea watersupply won't be affected by it.

Not to mention the fact, that you find yourself validating someone who's also literally said that there was an illegal coup in Ukraine. If you really cared about factuality that would've been a more urgent point to tackle and reply to, rather than complain about my tone (which is honestly me being frustrated by seeing so much nonsense on this topic, constantly). Apparently pro-democracy protests, and president being impeached by an elected parliament is called an "illegal coup". Yeah people should leave the corrupt russian puppets in place and never dare to protest against them.

Call it "knee jerk reactions", call it what you want. But I've decided to stop "respectfully" entertaining bullshit when I see it, especially when the lives of millions are at stake. Apparently it's okay to do that against covid deniers, or trump supporters. But Fascist Russia apologists, no, we must watch we say!

Edit: ok I had counter points to everything you said but I edited it off because I can see were arguing different branches of the same tree tree (related yet not fully on the same point) therefore this argument will never end.

 

I agree the comment the user made suggesting the government did it to its own people comes across insensitive right now without more facts to back it up especially when it's not the most likely scenario . I've agreed with this from the beggining and I never tried to defend that in of itself as that certainly wasn't my point 

 

I also agree outright misinformation (when that's the case) is harmful in situations like this

 

So maybe let's just leave it on the points where we see eye to eye and end it here.

[Ayesha Erotica 1,924]

On 6/6/2023 at 4:56 PM, Dennis said:

None of these points make sense.

First, I agree with Economy and your postings in general are totally "acting all know it all and self righteous to someone who wonders about the possibility of something u disagree with.I don't necessarily disagree with u that it wasn't Ukraine but I think ur agressive and judgemental tone was overblown given".

You act and write like only you possess the truth and everybody else with a different is a stupid pig that should refrain from posting.

 

1. For the confirmation of drought in Crimea, see my answer to 4th street below.

2. South/Eastern Kherson is now under Russian control and therefore it affects Russia, so yes.

3. Western intelligence have stated that they expect Russia to form a land bridge from Donbass to Transnistria, and this will include Odessa. Here one of a plethora of sources that expects Russia to make its way to Transnistria:

https://afsa.org/moldova-putins-next-target

Russia so far did not occupy Odessa and do you know why not? Because the Dnipro River is a natural obstacle that makes it hard, yet not impossible. And this is the reason why Ukraine has an interest in the Dnipro river remaing a strong obstacle.  Russia not being able now to make it to Odessa, doesn't mean it will not in future. Your argument "Russia is not capable of doing it" is wrong - according to some Western media, Russia was supposed to lose the war by August 2022. It did not.

 

 

On 6/8/2023 at 12:19 PM, Economy said:

see my post below

 

On 6/8/2023 at 1:10 PM, Economy said:

 Maybe in this specific case it changes nothing, but the attitude in society as a whole is dangerous imo even if more often than not the ones mocking the "crazy" one are in the right. Cuz everyone is wrong about something at least sometimes even society as a whole. And it's increasingly becoming impossible for ppl to challenge stuff in something as simple as civilized discussion because of this

Thank you for writing this. Totally agree.

10 hours ago, Illuminati said:

If Ukraine really wanted that dam blown up to protect Odessa they would have done it when Russia was still holding Kherson city. At this point in war Odessa is not even an objective anymore, they've been focusing on securing meters of land in the Donetsk region for over a year now.

 

Becaus they believed at this moment they can still win. And destroying a dam is a UN war crime and would cost Ukraine western support and Ukr relies on Western support. It could have destroyed the dam still afterwards and make supply chains afterwards harder.

Ukraine waited until the moment when it gave up its expectation to re-win South/East Kherson. It's not all about not losing more territory.

But thank you for not insulting my intelligence, thank you for not equating me to a Putin marionette and thank you for arguing in a civilized manner and thank you for not playing the nasty emotional card. At least, with you, unlike with Dennis, we can argue. Your point is a good point. I'm not saying you're 100% wrong, your Odessa argument is plausible, yet I believe in my version and logics. I respect your argument and I don't think you are stupid only because you have a different opinion than me.

9 hours ago, 4th Street said:

Very kind of you to say, I never meant to come across as someone who is pro Putin in this conflict but I guess it could have come across that way because I was ignorant about certain facts until you it made clear to me. The sad reality is that regional nations like Ukraine have been paying the price for this tension between Russia and the United States as far back as WW2, the only difference this time is the sheer scale of the destruction and the fact that US armed intervention is looking very unlikely at this point.

Dennis intentionally made you look like a Putin supporter to make you look bad, although you don't appear like a Putin supporter and you aren't in reality (you only appear as a Russia-supporter to those who don't like your opinion anyway), - to force a change of heart in you. You made a mistake with the Zelenskiy a president in 2014 statement. But your other points were all reasonable. Dennis also made a mistake saying that drought is not a problem for Crimea. Interestingly, the assumption that Crimea has no problem with drought comes even from the pro-Putin camp. Dennis uses the arguments as they suit him. By the way, according to his source, Crimea only has water supplies for two years. 2 years is not a lot of time. Then the drought returns. Crimea is a semi-desert. Without the Crimean Canal, Crimea is threatened by drought. you don't believe me? Here is some evidence, also from western sources:

https://jamestown.org/program/unprecedented-drought-in-crimea-can-the-russian-occupied-peninsula-solve-its-water-problems-without-ukraine/

"The water infrastructure in Crimea is steadily collapsing, and the soil degradation process in the northern part of the peninsula is already creating serious ecological issues (Agroday.com.ua, March 15, 2018). Since 70 percent of North Crimean Canal water was used for agriculture, the Ukrainian blockade dramatically affected that sector (Openforest.org.ua, June 6, 2020). Not only has the total area of Crimea’s irrigated land decreased ten times during the last six years, but the excessive use of underground water for irrigation has accelerated soil salinization, making the land unsuitable for agriculture. As a result, northern Crimea, the most farming-intensive region of the peninsula, has begun to undergo desertification (Nezavisimaya Gazeta, January 28)."

https://www.unian.info/economics/without-water-occupied-crimea-turning-into-a-desert-11163674.html

https://cepa.org/article/the-crimean-drought/

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/10837

 

 

It just frustrates me and makes me angry how Dennis blames other users and says they have no idea. If anyone here doesn't have a clue, it's Dennis.  He doesn't even know that Crimea is semi-desert.

18 hours ago, Economy said:

The only part that is relevant in terms of human suffering in this discussion is that saying their own government did it to their own ppl when there is no evidence at this time is very insensitive. But I told u I AGREE with u on that and that he shouldn't have said it on those grounds so I never defended that so I don't know why ur going off about me being disensatized. It's literally not relevant to the point.

Look: In my logics (to which you responded they could be right or wrong, as we don't know), Ukraine compared how big the human suffering would be if the dam and surrounding areas are flooded and how big the human suffering would be if Odessa and nearby oblasts would be occupied by Russia? And Ukraine arrived, according to these logics, to the conclusion that there is less (!!!!) human suffering for Ukraine under Ukrainian control in the long run if the dam gets flooded. So there is less human suffering with this version and Ukraine's decision to blow up the dam is perfectly rational because it avoids greater human suffering in the future. Wouldn't you say, this can be considered rational? 

Dennis plays the emotional card and this is a very nasty trick. Dennis uses flawed arguments that lack any philosophical argumentation logic. He tries to portray you, us and others as emotionless beasts, but this can only be true if his interpretation of reality is the only correct one. But his interpretation is very arbitrary, and only true if his words were spot on. But they aren't. Or to phrase it in your words, it is indeed "extremely acting all know it all and self righteous" how he dismisses other possible versions of reality. And it is nasty how he tries to achieve that.

He tries to give you and others a guilty conscience by reporting on the catastrophic conditions. But this says nothing at all about who the perpetrator is, because the perpetrator makes a a trade-off, a weighting, namely what is most useful to him. And Dennis statements that Ukraine suffers the most, in this case, is wrong in my opinion, it is in Ukraine's interests that Odessa remains under Ukrainian control and Odessa has enormous strategic importance to Ukraine. Losing Odessa would be much greater human suffering than flooding the dam.

Economy, I find it sad, that you partially apologize and backtrack for and from your original statements - you wrote nothing wrong, and you never stated that you support Russia, you never stated that you don't care about the human suffering, you never stated that "Ukraine blowing the dam makes Ukraine a bad country because people suffer". You never wrote that, and yet to still apologize and this baffles me.

Dennis intentionally twisted your words, Economy, to put you, us in an unflattering light, screwed things on you, to blackmail you, to blackmail you emotionally by talking about all these awful, horrific conditions and the purpose of all this is to win the argument and compel, force an apology from you. And he was succesful in that because he plaed the nasty card: emotional arguments.

Dennis tries to win this argument by arguing 95% emotionally and 5% rationally, yet Economy you did the reverse: you argued mostly rationally and it's not good how emotions now win this topic...

Economy, your moral reasoning has always been right and everyone who read your words as there were, knew how they were meant, yet Dennis unfortunately successfully managed to twist your words and put you in a negative light, but that's NOT how every users perceives it, only those who disagree. There has been no need for you to backtrack or apologize b/c you never stated that ""Ukraine blowing the dam makes Ukraine a bad country because people suffer / Ukraine doesn't care about people suffering" - you always wrote that the idea of Ukraine having advantages, and less suffering (!) in comparison to more future suffering, is such an advantage, shall not be dismissed. And I still, and totally, support your original reasoning.

I will not allow Dennis to win this argument with this nasty and unfair emotional card.

 

 

 

 

[Economy 52,844]

19 minutes ago, LoliLux said:

 

Economy, I find it sad, that you partially apologize and backtrack for and from your original statements - you wrote nothing wrong, and you never stated that you support Russia, you never stated that you don't care about the human suffering, you never stated that "Ukraine blowing the dam makes Ukraine a bad country because people suffer". You never wrote that, and yet to still apologize and this baffles me.

 

I didn't really apologize for anything, the other user apologized. What I did was try to highlight any points we had in agreement or didn't disagree on as a show of good faith that I acknowledge his points of view and my goal wasn't to go against everything he said. That's not apologizing

 

Sometimes when it's clear an argument is never gonna end, or you are arguing different branches of the same tree (which I felt was happening) I feel it's best to just acknowledge what parts you might see eye to eye in and forget the rest and call it a day.

 

Otherwise we're gonna make one of those forum threads with 10 pages arguing back and fourth and neither side really won any argument or got their point across so it's pointless

 

I do get tired with some of the mentalities and attitudes the internet has promoted nowadays tho such as lack of civility, patience and instant gas lighting or knee jerk reaction accusations and GGD has quite a bit of them from some users. Sometimes I consider just leaving the site for good cuz it's not healthy and I just can't seem to resist checking and joining discussions on the World News section when I'm on and giving myself grief for no reason 

[4th Time Around 5,059]

 I largely stand by my statements, there is a very good chance Russia did blow the dam but I find it extremely wrong that only because I suggested an alternative scenerio that I never claimed happened for sure I was insulted, attacked and labeled a Russian facist, like wtf! you dont just go around accussing people of stuff like that for no reason. Frankly I am getting tired of the immaturity and hivemind mentality in GGD sometimes.

[Ayesha Erotica 1,924]

7 minutes ago, Economy said:

... cuz it's not healthy and I just can't resist checking the world news section

yeah, I feel you and think the same. It really isn't healthy. We are more the philosphic diplomatic persons but also true and loyal to our principles but this is exhausting.

It's noon time in Canada, isn't it? Well, I suggest we both go outside, into a garden or a park, and enjoy the rest of the day and sunshine and relax a bit, because both of us relax too few, and worry too much, and I hope your nor affected by the smog of the burning forest in Québec. And I hope there will be ceasefire as soon as possible in Ukraine, so that they can go back to their normal lives and have some moments of joy, if anyone deserves it the most, the people in Ukraine and Africa. Are you affected by the Québec smog like NYC, in Ontario?

Ultimately, this topic belongs to Dennis, and it was not my goal to make him upset, just to present my opinion. I will refrain from posting here and fulfill his wish, this is my last post in this topic and this basically is like a ceasefire.

[Economy 52,844]

2 minutes ago, LoliLux said:

yeah, I feel you and think the same. It really isn't healthy. We are more the philosphic diplomatic persons but also true and loyal to our principles but this is exhausting.

It's noon time in Canada, isn't it? Well, I suggest we both go outside, into a garden or a park, and enjoy the rest of the day and sunshine and relax a bit, because both of us relax too few, and worry too much, and I hope your nor affected by the smog of the burning forest in Québec. And I hope there will be ceasefire as soon as possible in Ukraine, so that they can go back to their normal lives and have some moments of joy, if anyone deserves it the most, the people in Ukraine and Africa. Are you affected by the Québec smog like NYC, in Ontario?

Ultimately, this topic belongs to Dennis, and it was not my goal to make him upset, just to present my opinion. I will refrain from posting here and fulfill his wish, this is my last post in this topic and this basically is like a ceasefire.

I'm at work lol I can't go outside plus it's raining today 😅

 

On the flip side yes we had smog from the fires and the rain helped clean the air a bit so better for my asthma today lol

[Ayesha Erotica 1,924]

8 minutes ago, Economy said:

I'm at work lol I can't go outside plus it's raining today 😅

 

On the flip side yes we had smog from the fires and the rain helped clean the air a bit so better for my asthma today lol

By the way, as a kid I used to buy Yu-Gi-oh! booster packs and I had once this ultra rare holograhic trap card, that was called Ceasefire, it was originally in English and Ceasefire written in golden letters. I looked up what the word means (I thought it's about a chimney running out of flames) and have known this word ever since then and whenever i think of the word ceasefire, I think of this YGO card.  I think it somehow affects monster in hidden defense position. This is very random and now I really really leave this topic, I gotta keep my promise!

[Economy 52,844]

37 minutes ago, 4th Street said:

 I largely stand by my statements, there is a very good chance Russia did blow the dam but I find it extremely wrong that only because I suggested an alternative scenerio that I never claimed happened for sure I was insulted, attacked and labeled a Russian facist, like wtf! you dont just go around accussing people of stuff like that for no reason. Frankly I am getting tired of the immaturity and hivemind mentality in GGD sometimes.

For the record I understand the point of view that it comes across insensitive to accuse their own government of doing that to their own ppl without any real evidence at this time cuz we simply don't know. I myself probably wouldn't have made that comment at this time

 

However to compare the theory on the same level to Covid-19 deniers or election fraud conspiracy theorists I think is highly uncalled for given those are extreme examples of situations where the facts are irrefutable which wasn't th case here

 

Also speculating on military tactics has nothing to do with being a Russian apologist so I thought that accusation was also a reach.

 

On those 2 grounds I disagreed and I was defending u on those 2 things mainly

[Dennis 8,391]

6 hours ago, LoliLux said:

-- snip ---

You can post a long rant. But for the ease of reading, I won't do the same because your whole argument can be easily debunked in short words:

1. Crimea has two years worth of water reserves. There's no immediate threat. And Crimea survived without it for 8 years already. 

2. The dam is under Russian control. So if you're going to claim Ukraine blew it up, explain how they accessed the facility under Russian control. Why is Russia not showing evidence? Such dams cannot be destroyed by missiles. They are very strong built to sustain strong river pressure for decades. They would have to be mined from within.

3. You don't seem to even have the timeline of events in your head. You do realize that Russia reached Mykolaiv in 2022 which is a lot closer to Odessa. Why didn't Ukraine blow up the dam when Mykolaiv and Odessa were in real danger? Furthermore, when Ukraine went on the offensive in September 2022 to liberate Kherson, and Russia was using the Dnipro river to resupply its troops, why didn't Ukraine blow up the dam then to completely cut off russian troops and literally encircle all of them? It would've been a big military prize for Ukraine, and yet they calculated that the damage to their cities would be too high and decided against it. Also if Russia was planning to attack Odessa as you claim, why did they blow up Antonivka Bridge with mines, last November? Surely they would've left it intact so that they can cross no?

So now, after Kherson is safe, Ukrainians would randomly decide to destroy the same city they lost thousands of lives to liberate? You make no sense. And it shows. Also when discussing this, please have a map of Ukraine open before you, because I don't think you even understand the geography of the River and which parts Russia used to control/controls now. These are matters of life and death, the least you can do before you discuss them is make sure you got the facts right.

[Dennis 8,391]

New York Times now reports that U.S satellites detected an explosion. So did the Norweigian Seismac Array. So now this rules out the theory of an accident on the part of the russians who controlled the dam. But I'm sure the clueless contrarians would continue to argue otherwise.