Russia blows up dam to thwart Ukraine's counter-offensive, causing massive flooding

[4th Time Around 5,059]

On 6/7/2023 at 1:47 AM, Debithius said:

I mean Ukraine is the country who got invaded so I think they have nothing to apologize for at this point lol.

And I suppose the fact that the United States supported a coup in Ukraine in 2014 to topple the government and replace them with a different puppet regime means nothing in regards to this conflict? I hate war and it is unfortunate that innocent Ukranian citizens are being caught up in the crossfire of what essentially amounts to a NATO/Russia rivalry. The United States has been sponsoring proxy wars and trying to impose regime change ever since WW2 and somehow many people are still blind as bats to such an obvious fact.

[Economy 52,839]

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

So you subjectively decided that it's not remotely on the same scope? You say that falsely starting conspiracy theories without evidence about elections being rigged, or vaccines being harmful, is a lot more harmful than conspiracies about Ukraine? You made this wrong subjective call, that's on you not me.

For me it is AS harmful. I don't decide to downgrade the gravity of it because I don't care about it as much or because it doesn't affect me. This conflict caused tens of millions of lives to be upended. Millions are displaced. Tens of thousands of civilians are killed, by conservative estimates. Hundreds of thousands of casualties. And that's not even talking about PTSD that is probably more widespread.

I'm sorry that you got desensitized to it, and you don't think it's as bad. But for me it is. Not to say that Ukraine is immune from criticism, when you see such a mass tragedy, even today Russia was shelling rescue operations in Kherson, and your immediate thought is to say well it's ukrainians killing themselves, that is beyond insanity.
 

 

It's not arbitrary. Its not on the same scope because it's completely irrefutable. We have FACTUAL data to prove covid conspiracies wrong. This however doesn't at this time. Therefore the comparison to made is not comfortable on the same scope. I am not sure why that difference is so hard for u to understand 

 

Also I do not know why ur accusing me of being disensatized or not caring

 

The human suffering of this and the discussion of why something occured is not relevant to the point. Having a different theory on how something occured changes absolutely nothing about the fact that ppls lives will still be ruined either way, and having sympathy vs not having sympathy for ppl does not have the power to change what may or may not have happened

 

The only part that is relevant in terms of human suffering in this discussion is that saying their own government did it to their own ppl when there is no evidence at this time is very insensitive. But I told u I AGREE with u on that and that he shouldn't have said it on those grounds so I never defended that so I don't know why ur going off about me being disensatized. It's literally not relevant to the point.

 

So the reason I disagree with what u said and ur tone isn't because I think ur wrong about Ukraine not having done this, and I also don't think ur wrong about the fact he shouldn't have said that. I agree with u also on that 

 

My issue was with the scope and degree at which u dragged him for having a different theory that he had to of been ignorant and not followed it etc.

 

U went off about following the war and events but uf u have any but if humility at all id know when u follow wars and events, that although the general consensus is often right there's also occasional surprises that catch ppl off guard. Sometimes ur not always right about everything all the time

 

Acting like anyone that has a theory outside what most ppl believe are ignorant, conspiracy theorists or uneducated is what I have an issue with especially something that isn't necessarily irrefutable unlike the examples of covid u brought up

 

That kind of attitude will ensure that if there actually ever is a major conspiracy theory for real that is really convincing, anyone that might see thru it will never be able to be taken seriously. Not to mention u make it impossible to challange a well accepted status quo in case it actually happens to be flawed. That's dangerous imo and that's why I have a problem with it 

[Economy 52,839]

1 hour ago, 4th Street said:

None of this has been confirmed. Why would Russia blow up a dam that supplies so much water to Crimea? its just as probable that Ukraine blew it if not more likely. Remember back when Nordstream happened and western media was reporting that Russia did it and now we know that was proven to be untrue. People need to recognize that mainstream news has become a massive cycle of propaganda in regards to the Ukraine conflict on both sides, nobody really knows what is happening and saying Russia blew the dam when it just as easily could have been Ukraine is another example of trying to spin a narrative.

This is why I have a problem with knee jerk reactions when someone proposes a different possibility of something or has doubts about the general consensus about something until there is proof

 

If something is not impossible and someone mentions it, do not jump to compare that person to a covid-19 denier on conspiracy theorist. Until something is proven, be at least open to different possibilities and don't act like you know everything and anyone that disagrees with you must be ignorant and a dumb ass. U start to create a mob forced mentality and everyone else to shut up when that occurs and sometimes the forced opinion isn't even always correct

 

This is why I went off on a rant in this thread. 

 

However a point was made that its insensitive to sound too accusatory to a government doing this to its own ppl that have suffered so much already when we have no evidence of it at this time. That I agree with. I myself probably would not have bothered to comment that right now even if I thought it

 

However there is a difference between between accusing and considering the possibility. It does depend on your tone too imo

[Magui 2,654]

This is so freaking sad and devastating.... unfortunately nothing will be the same... Ukrainians can never go back to what life was before 24 February 2022...and that's the ultimate nightmare...

[Economy 52,839]

2 hours ago, Magui said:

This is so freaking sad and devastating.... unfortunately nothing will be the same... Ukrainians can never go back to what life was before 24 February 2022...and that's the ultimate nightmare...

The country will literally have to be rebuilt from scratch entirely. Hopefully the world helps and Russia will owe some serious reperations when Putin is finally gone

[Dennis 8,391]

3 hours ago, 4th Street said:

 Why would Russia blow up a dam that supplies so much water to Crimea?

If you were focused on facts rather than making up bullshit about "illegal coups in Ukraine", you would've known.

Crimea already has 2 years worth of Water reserves: https://tass.com/russia/1535583

And comparisons to Nord Stream 2 are not valid. Yes Ukraine has interest in attacking Nord Stream 2, or Kerch Bridge, because it serves its interests. It's sensical.

But to accuse Ukraine of killing their own civilians and destroying their own cities to deprive Crimea of Water, when Crimea already has enough water for a lot more than the expected downtime of the dam, is just stupid speculation. But what can I expect from someone who doesn't know that ther was not a coup in Ukraine. Yanukovich was impeached by the elected Ukrainian parliament, and he fled the country rather than fighting the impeachment: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2014/2/22/ukraine-president-yanukovich-impeached

[Dennis 8,391]

2 hours ago, Economy said:

This is why I have a problem with knee jerk reactions when someone proposes a different possibility of something or has doubts about the general consensus about something until there is proof

 

If something is not impossible and someone mentions it, do not jump to compare that person to a covid-19 denier on conspiracy theorist. Until something is proven, be at least open to different possibilities and don't act like you know everything and anyone that disagrees with you must be ignorant and a dumb ass. U start to create a mob forced mentality and everyone else to shut up when that occurs and sometimes the forced opinion isn't even always correct

 

This is why I went off on a rant in this thread. 

 

However a point was made that its insensitive to sound too accusatory to a government doing this to its own ppl that have suffered so much already when we have no evidence of it at this time. That I agree with. I myself probably would not have bothered to comment that right now even if I thought it

 

However there is a difference between between accusing and considering the possibility. It does depend on your tone too imo

Well you lost all credibility with this reply. I mean the fact that you can't even tell the difference between blowing up Nord Stream 2 which objectively helps Ukraine without harming its own citizens, and blowing up a dam that destroys Ukrainian cities  and virtually does little to no harm to Russia considering Crimea watersupply won't be affected by it.

Not to mention the fact, that you find yourself validating someone who's also literally said that there was an illegal coup in Ukraine. If you really cared about factuality that would've been a more urgent point to tackle and reply to, rather than complain about my tone (which is honestly me being frustrated by seeing so much nonsense on this topic, constantly). Apparently pro-democracy protests, and president being impeached by an elected parliament is called an "illegal coup". Yeah people should leave the corrupt russian puppets in place and never dare to protest against them.

Call it "knee jerk reactions", call it what you want. But I've decided to stop "respectfully" entertaining bullshit when I see it, especially when the lives of millions are at stake. Apparently it's okay to do that against covid deniers, or trump supporters. But Fascist Russia apologists, no, we must watch we say!

[4th Time Around 5,059]

2 hours ago, Economy said:

The country will literally have to be rebuilt from scratch entirely. Hopefully the world helps and Russia will owe some serious reperations when Putin is finally gone

Unfortunately, Ukraine has already lost this thing no matter how you look at it. Even if they retook the occupied territories by some miracle, the country has effectively been ruined and depopulated. The more likely scenario is that Russia is going to force a capitulation on the Ukranian government at some point as they keep pushing west. Bakmut recently fell to Russia and it was the most important city in Donbas from a strategic standpoint and so far all the Ukranian counterattacks have been repulsed. The Ukranian army has fought very bravely but they simply do not have the resources to enage Russia in a prolonged war and very soon the western supplied military and financial aid is going to dry up. Reality will start hitting people once Russia reachess a place like Odessa.

[4th Time Around 5,059]

2 hours ago, Dennis said:

Well you lost all credibility with this reply. I mean the fact that you can't even tell the difference between blowing up Nord Stream 2 which objectively helps Ukraine without harming its own citizens, and blowing up a dam that destroys Ukrainian cities  and virtually does little to no harm to Russia considering Crimea watersupply won't be affected by it.

Not to mention the fact, that you find yourself validating someone who's also literally said that there was an illegal coup in Ukraine. If you really cared about factuality that would've been a more urgent point to tackle and reply to, rather than complain about my tone (which is honestly me being frustrated by seeing so much nonsense on this topic, constantly). Apparently pro-democracy protests, and president being impeached by an elected parliament is called an "illegal coup". Yeah people should leave the corrupt russian puppets in place and never dare to protest against them.

Call it "knee jerk reactions", call it what you want. But I've decided to stop "respectfully" entertaining bullshit when I see it, especially when the lives of millions are at stake. Apparently it's okay to do that against covid deniers, or trump supporters. But Fascist Russia apologists, no, we must watch we say!

Imagine calling someone a facist Russian apologist because they dont happen to agree that it is 100% certain that Russia destroyed the dam, they might have done it but nobody knows for sure. As for my comments about a coup, the previous regime was clearly toppled from insider forces and the United States was very supportive of the effort, might not have started out as a coup but the US clearly saw an opportnity and jumped on it. According to you when Ukraine has a government friendly to Russia its a puppet regime and yet when they have a government friendly to the US its legit democracy, the truth is that Ukraine swapped out a Russian puppet for a US one and now innocent Ukrainian citizens are paying the price for this outdated cold war rivalry mentality between Russia and the United Staes. How about you come off your high horse and accept the fact that not everyone is going to have identical thoughts on a complicated topic that you do.

[Dennis 8,391]

41 minutes ago, 4th Street said:

According to you when Ukraine has a government friendly to Russia its a puppet regime and yet when they have a government friendly to the US its legit democracy, the truth is that Ukraine swapped out a Russian puppet for a US one and now innocent Ukrainian citizens are paying the price for this outdated cold war rivalry mentality between Russia and the United Staes. How about you come off your high horse and accept the fact that not everyone is going to have identical thoughts on a complicated topic that you do.

Zelensky was elected with 70% of the vote. Ukrainians support him overwhelmingly. It's not about whether he's pro-America or not. It's about respecting the will of Ukrainians. And poll after poll shows that Ukrainians still support their government today. Yes, he is pro-western but that is also what ukrainians want. So quit playing silly ideological games with this. If you say you care about Ukrainians (which clearly you don't), start by respecting their will, which they have expressed freely. 

So just do me a favor, before you talk about such topics, make sure you've got the facts. Because apparently you didn't know Yunakovich was actually impeached by the elected parliament of Ukraine. And that is NOT an illegal coup as you claimed. That is an internal constitutional process that concerns only Ukrainians, not Russia and not you. If Ukrainians want to join EU, that's their business not yours. 

If Belarus starts a pro-democracy movement tomorrow and they want to join EU and remove Lukaeshenko, you strike me as someone who'd call it an "illegal pro-western coup", you'd rather see people live under the boots of Putin than be free, so of course I'm gonna call you a fascist shill.

[4th Time Around 5,059]

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

Zelensky was elected with 70% of the vote. Ukrainians support him overwhelmingly. It's not about whether he's pro-America or not. It's about respecting the will of Ukrainians. And poll after poll shows that Ukrainians still support their government today. Yes, he is pro-western but that is also what ukrainians want. So quit playing silly ideological games with this. If you say you care about Ukrainians (which clearly you don't), start by respecting their will, which they have expressed freely. 

I am no supporter of the Russian government, I don't think the invasion was justified and I have a post awhile back mocking the incompetence of Russian logistics in the intitial attempt to seize Kiev. I care about people and I find it tragic whats happening in Ukraine. You claim I am ok with people living under the boots of Putin and yet you seem to be ok with an entire country being destroyed and hundreds of thousands if not millions of potential deaths just so Ukraine can have freedom to chose either a US or Russian puppet. Either we go all in and help Ukraine push Russia out or we stop rubbing salt into a gaping wound. As for my comments regarding 2014, I am aware that the movement to impeach is legal and does not constitute a coup yet when the United States starting getting involved and propping up Zelensky then it became a coup, why was the US getting involved? I thought you said foreign powers should stay out of Ukraines business? The United States saw the chaos in Ukraine as a chance to install someone in their back pocket which is precisely what they helped engineer. Even if most of Ukraine was supportive of Zelensky, it still does not mean US should have gotten involved.

[Dennis 8,391]

2 hours ago, 4th Street said:

As for my comments regarding 2014, I am aware that the movement to impeach is legal and does not constitute a coup yet when the United States starting getting involved and propping up Zelensky then it became a coup, why was the US getting involved?

I'm sorry to say this bluntly, but please stop. You've just shown here that you don't even know enough about Ukrainian political history. Zelensky wasn't even around in 2014. He was not the president the came out of the Maidan revolution. That was  Poroshenko. Zelensky only ran for president in 2019, not 2014. 

You see what I'm saying? You can't start harmful conspiracy theories about Ukraine when you don't even know the basic facts of what's happening. It ends up harming Ukraine.

[LilyLark 10,213]

8 hours ago, 4th Street said:

None of this has been confirmed. Why would Russia blow up a dam that supplies so much water to Crimea? its just as probable that Ukraine blew it if not more likely. Remember back when Nordstream happened and western media was reporting that Russia did it and now we know that was proven to be untrue. People need to recognize that mainstream news has become a massive cycle of propaganda in regards to the Ukraine conflict on both sides, nobody really knows what is happening and saying Russia blew the dam when it just as easily could have been Ukraine is another example of trying to spin a narrative.

Sis I thought Ukraine was likely behind Nordstream (or Poland), but I also think there's no reason for Ukraine to blow the dam. Ukraine relies HEAVILY on agricultural exports. This is going to **** up their fields for a long time. The cons way outweigh the pros in regards to Ukraine. 

Russia has a tendency to cause mass destruction (re: Syria and Chechnya, even Georgia) when retreating, but I do think it is possible this was genuinely an accident due to shitty maintenance. Russia had already mined the dam months ago, and there's been other incidents of them accidentally destroying stuff they are occupying or even their own military supplies.

Anyway, the dam blowing benefits Russia far more than Ukraine....but honestly there are enough downsides that I could see a situation where it was not done on purpose. That said, considering Russian state TV had talking heads saying they should blow the dam near Kyiv (they may have just talking sh*t, as they often lie) was very suspicious.

*The Kyiv dam is different from the one that blew, but still suspect asf that they were talking about it that way...

[LilyLark 10,213]

8 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I'm sorry to say this bluntly, but please stop. You've just shown here that you don't even know enough about Ukrainian political history. Zelensky wasn't even around in 2014. He was not the president the came out of the Maidan revolution. That was  Poroshenko. Zelensky only ran for president in 2019, not 2014. 

You see what I'm saying? You can't start harmful conspiracy theories about Ukraine when you don't even know the basic facts of what's happening. It ends up harming Ukraine.

I was going to say the US wasn't even happy Z was elected lol...people thought he was too friendly/soft on Russia. It's so weird to see the propaganda now pretend like the US propped him up or put him in Ukraine.

It's so wild how the Russian propaganda/disinformation has permeated the media. People genuinely don't realize Poro came before Z, that Ukraine was declared neutral until the 2014 invasion, that the Russian language was and still is widely used and there were just trying to transition in regards to some governmental stuff and use Ukrainian more, etc.

Like...I've seen people retweet stuff claiming Azov (and no, I'm not defending Azov at all) was persecuting Russian speakers....except the vast majority of Azov were Russian speakers themselves lol. It's just sad how much pro Putin bullshit is out there.

I recall there was the socialist, anti war Armenian-Russian journo from Russia who had spoken out repeatedly since 2014 against Russia's actions in Ukraine, against Russia's actions in Syria, and he had to flee for his life from Russia due to his strong anti-war stance. And people on twitter from like the US and Germany were calling him, a socialist who had been arrested for his anti Putin and anti-war stance, an imperialist puppet.

[Dennis 8,391]

7 minutes ago, LilyLark said:

I was going to say the US wasn't even happy Z was elected lol...people thought he was too friendly/soft on Russia. It's so weird to see the propaganda now pretend like the US propped him up or put him in Ukraine.

Yes exactly! I was going to say that too. Zelensky was actually the "less hawkish" president lol. He was pro-EU like most ukrainians are but also wanted peace with Russia.

These are the U.N/OSCE mission data on deaths in Ukraine. And under Zelensky deaths related to the conflict continued to get even lower:



So I always laugh when people try to paint Zelensky as this anti-Russia hawk that started massively persecuting Russians when he came to power. Zelensky himself grew up speaking Russian and actually has a long history working in Russia as a TV performer. People are just clueless and it's extremely frustrating.