Ukrainian men die trying to escape the draft & make it to the EU

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Every week, in the Chernivtsi and Transcarpathia regions, the authorities catch men of military age illegally crossing the state border. Ukrainian border guards present this phenomenon as a refusal of citizens to defend their country. However, sociological studies also show the other side of the situation, writes Marin Gherman, journalist of Libertății and who has worked as a journalist in Chernivtsi.

It's a phenomenon. A series of events that followed each other even more rapidly in December, despite the snow that fell in the lands beyond Romania's northern border. On December 6, the Ukrainian-language media in Chernivtsi, citing the State Border Service, reported on the detention of 14 citizens of Ukraine who had tried, a weekend ago, to reach the territory of Romania or the Republic of Moldova.

The Ukrainian press has reported weekly for the past 10 months about various atypical attempts by the men to leave the country: some hid in the trunk of the car, others presented false documents or bribed customs officers.   According to a study , the motivation of men trying in various ways to leave Ukraine is not necessarily determined by indifference to the army's efforts to defend their country. "It's not just about the fear of enlistment, but more often than not poverty. Ukraine does not need so many men in the army. Their usual way of life was interrupted. They think about their children in the first place, less about geopolitics", Ciprian, an ethnic Romanian from the Transcarpathia region, tells Libertatea. 

Another 11 men who were announced by the authorities tried to reach Romania last weekend through the forests of the Bucovina town of Crasna or to the Republic of Moldova through the commune of Mămăliga. The authorities publish photos of these men each time, emphasizing that they are indifferent to the fate of their country.

According to official information , on December 2, Ukrainian border guards identified the eleventh man who drowned in the Tisa River in the Transcarpathian region during the illegal crossing of the state border. The number of victims could be much higher. 

Source- https://www.libertatea.ro/stiri/goniti-de-saracie-in-directia-ue-barbatii-ucraineni-cauta-solutii-disperate-pentru-a-fugi-din-tara-prin-raurile-si-padurile-de-la-granita-ei-se-gandesc-la-copiii-lor-si-nu-la-geopolitica-4374630 

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More recent news  (27 December)

A young Ukrainian who fled the war was found dead in a stream in the Maramureș Mountains, after wandering for three days through blizzard and frost.

Five friends were with him, but four of them were rescued by emergency crews, who withdrew due to the weather.

Another Ukrainian is nowhere to be found, after refusing to give his coordinates. Apparently the fugitives were deserters and feared going to jail. 

Source - https://stirileprotv.ro/stiri/actualitate/unul-dintre-fugarii-ucraineni-a-fost-gasit-mort-intr-un-parau-din-muntii-maramuresului-altul-este-inca-disparut.html 

[littlepotter 76,610]

That's so sad

[Dennis 8,391]

I think it's natural for a few to be terrified of war and fighting. Some are braver than others. Citizenship comes with the premise that we would fight for the country we're citizen of. But we never really thought about it, because we assumed trench warfare is a thing of the past.

All of this makes me despise Russia and their apologists even more for bringing back this reality. You failed to take Kyiv in few days as you expected, Take the L and go home instead of killing so many lives (including their own) for no reason. What's even more shocking to me is the amount of russians who continue to fight for Putin despite their heavy casualties. They just don't seem to value their lives.

[FfFfFfFF 58,058]

7 minutes ago, Dennis said:

 Citizenship comes with the premise that we would fight for the country we're citizen of. But we never really thought about it, because we assumed trench warfare is a thing of the past.

Ukraine is not the US?? These people didn't "become citizens", they are Ukrainians that were born in Ukraine and are living in Ukraine. They didn't sign up for this. I live 40kms from the border of Ukraine, and if by chance I would have been born in Ukraine, let me tell you I would not have sacrificed myself for anybody's "motherland". I love my country but I draw the line at signing up for something that has the potential to kill me. Very very sad story about men fleeing and being found frozen in rivers, I myself could have been in their place if my life played out differently.

[Dennis 8,391]

2 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

Ukraine is not the US?? These people didn't "become citizens", they are Ukrainians that were born in Ukraine and are living in Ukraine. They didn't sign up for this. I live 40kms from the border of Ukraine, and if by chance I would have been born in Ukraine, let me tell you I would not have sacrificed myself for anybody's "motherland". I love my country but I draw the line at signing up for something that has the potential to kill me. Very very sad story about men fleeing and being found frozen in rivers, I myself could have been in their place if my life played out differently.

What does the U.S have to do with it? I'm talking in general about conscription laws and how they're the part of our civic duty that we're least fond of.

And yes if only Russia didn't invade Ukraine. We wouldn't be talking about mobilization and all the sad stories that come from it (like for example the fact that Russia drafted anti-war protestors to go fight in Ukraine against their will). Let's remember that.

[FfFfFfFF 58,058]

Just now, Dennis said:

What does the U.S have to do with it? I'm talking in general about conscription laws and how they're the part of our civic duty that we're least fond of.

And yes if only Russia didn't invade Ukraine. We wouldn't be talking about mobilization and all the sad stories that come from it (like for example the fact that Russia drafted anti-war protestors to go fight in Ukraine against their will). Let's remember that.

I'm just going to say, you are not as sleek as you think trying to sneak in this "well they should have gone to fight" idea into the conversation. The state and anybody for that matter doesn't have ownership over me in this way. I am not going to war because I happened to be born male and in a certain state (just like you shouldn't have been sent to the Middle East because your government decided so). Some men don't want to fight and so be it. And let's be completely honest and recognize that the Ukrainian government is forcing these people to stay inside Ukraine and fight. This is Ukraine handling the situation of war caused by Russia, Ukraine is nonetheless the one forcing people that don't want to fight to go to fight. Let's not paint it different that what it is because of agenda and our desired talking points.

[Dennis 8,391]

11 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

And let's be completely honest and recognize that the Ukrainian government is forcing these people to stay inside Ukraine and fight. This is Ukraine handling the situation of war caused by Russia, Ukraine is nonetheless the one forcing people that don't want to fight to go to fight. 

Ah I see the point of this thread now. It's just one of your many "let's find smth we can blame Ukraine for" threads. Now we're gonna make threads that exclusively blame Ukraine for having conscription laws (basically like every other nation on earth). Use your energy on the root problem instead of the side effects.

[TheBannedShadow 3,424]

52 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I think it's natural for a few to be terrified of war and fighting. Some are braver than others.

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14 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Ah I see the point of this thread now. It's just one of your many "let's find smth we can blame Ukraine for" threads. Now we're gonna make threads that exclusively blame Ukraine for having conscription laws (basically like every other nation on earth). Use your energy on the root problem instead of the side effects.

No actual arguments or come back, just agenda? Okay, my reply is going to be shorter then.

Nobody is "exclusively" blaming Ukraine, as you see I said Russia caused the war. If Putin wouldn't have invaded, these men wouldn't have been placed into this situation. And if Zelensky wouldn't have banned men from leaving, they also wouldn't have been placed into this situation. You cannot just blind yourself to truth and logic because you support a cause.

[Pennywise 36,080]

Draft is a terrible thing, no matter which country is doing it, and no matter for what reason. If people don't want to kill and be killed, they should have every right to do so, even if it is to the detriment of their country. Honestly, we give corpses more bodily autonomy than we give living people. "Countries" and the whole concept of civilization should exist to uplift humanity, not to get us murdered for any reason at all. Countries should be for the people, not the other way. 


Note: this is not an attack on Ukraine or Russia, but about any country that does draft and mandatory military service. 

 

[Dennis 8,391]

4 hours ago, Pennywise said:

Draft is a terrible thing, no matter which country is doing it, and no matter for what reason. If people don't want to kill and be killed, they should have every right to do so, even if it is to the detriment of their country. Honestly, we give corpses more bodily autonomy than we give living people. "Countries" and the whole concept of civilization should exist to uplift humanity, not to get us murdered for any reason at all. Countries should be for the people, not the other way. 


Note: this is not an attack on Ukraine or Russia, but about any country that does draft and mandatory military service. 

 

Sounds nice but overly simplistic.

The idea of a state is not just a place of birth but rather a community that shares different burdens. A state must assume the provision of healthcare, education to all people through the shared burden of taxation. A state is also responsible for the protection of their citizens from being killed by a foreign invader. When an enemy state drops bombs on a country, killing their civilians, the protection of the population is another type of burden that will have to be shared. It sucks but there are no alternatives. Ideally volunteers will be taken first, but if necessary, draft becomes the only way such a burden is shared fairly. What other options? 40 million ukrainians to go to another country? Even if the host nations are generous (very few are), it'll be logistically impossible.

I'm for people having the choice to not share the burden, but they should also relinquish their citizenship with it (unless they are eligible for the legal exceptions such as being students, having children etc..). Because it certainly feels unfair if I expect others to lay down their lives defending my family and my property while shielding myself from this burden. You may say "oh well i'm not asking them to defend me". Yeah but it's not like they're gonna go to each neighborhood and figure out who wants to be defended and who does not. This is common defense of the community.

What sucks nowadays is that people focus on attacking conscription/drafts instead of actually focusing on the root problem that makes conscription happen in the first place. Stop aggression and stop wars and you won't have drafts, not the other way around. 

[AsleepOnTheCeiling 6,938]

37 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Sounds nice but overly simplistic.

The idea of a state is not just a place of birth but rather a community that shares different burdens. A state must assume the provision of healthcare, education to all people through the shared burden of taxation, a state is also responsible for the protection of their citizens from being killed by a foreign invader. When an enemy state drops bombs on a country, killing their civilians, the protection of the population is another type of burden that will have to be shared. It sucks but there are no alternatives. Ideally volunteers will be taken first, but if necessary, draft becomes the only way such a burden is shared fairly. What other options? 40 million ukrainians to go to another country? Even if the host nations are generous (very few are), it'll be logistically impossible.

I'm for people having the choice to not share the burden, but they should also relinquish their citizenship with it (unless they are eligible for the legal exceptions such as being students, having children etc..). Because It certainly feels unfair if I expect others to lay down their lives defending my family and my property while shielding myself from this burden. You may say "oh well i'm not asking them to defend me". Yeah but it's not like they're gonna go to each neighborhood and figure out who wants to be defended and who does not. This is common defense of the community.

What sucks nowadays is that people focus on attacking conscription/drafts instead of actually focusing on the root problem that makes conscription happen in the first place. Stop aggression and stop wars and you won't have drafts, not the other way around. 
 

 

Talk about oversimplification. There has ALWAYS been war among humans. Always. There are 193 recognized countries in the world. You don't think there's a chance at least 1 will always have a head of government greedy/crazy enough to start a war? 

[Dennis 8,391]

56 minutes ago, TortureMeOnReplay said:

Talk about oversimplification. There has ALWAYS been war among humans. Always. There are 193 recognized countries in the world. You don't think there's a chance at least 1 will always have a head of government greedy/crazy enough to start a war? 

You miss the point; until aggression is stopped once and for all, drafts will continue to exist as a matter of extreme necessity whether we like it or not. Arguing otherwise is basically saying let other people bear the brunt instead of me. Someone else may pay the price in your stead, but a price will be paid nonetheless. It's not a solution.

And yes wars have always existed and they will continue to exist because there's not enough pushback. Isn't Ukraine the best proof of that? 80% of the world continues to do business with Putin as if nothing happened, and even in the free world, you find useful idiots who will assign more blame to the victim than the aggressor. So of course "greedy/crazy" governments will be encouraged to wage wars, because this is the example that the world has set.

[FfFfFfFF 58,058]

A rather lenghty post but without many great points to hang on.

6 hours ago, Dennis said:

A state must assume the provision of healthcare, education to all people through the shared burden of taxation. A state is also responsible for the protection of their citizens from being killed by a foreign invader.

Then have the ''state'' fight to protect its citizens instead of sending the citizens themselves into the meat grinder. Sending people to fight and potentially have them killed is counter-intuitive if the goal is to keep them alive, don't you think? And it's as if ''the state''/ government doesn't profit off people, as if the government is always looking for the best... This is not phantasy world and governments are corrupt. The laws of my community are not great for me, I am unfarily taxed and treated unfarily by the state institutions (mind you, this goes against the agenda but Ukraine is also one of the most corrupt countries in Europe, this is just a fact and you don't have a case if you argue otherwise).

I don't own to anybody to go to war because I am male and born in a certain country period. One doesn't choose where he is born and it's very ridicilous for an American sitting in his American home talk about civic duties and what not. As you can tell, countries can decide to go to war and be in the wrong. If America decides to go to another ''-stan'', by your own logic the citizens would have the duty to take up arms and fight.  

6 hours ago, Dennis said:

Stop aggression and stop wars and you won't have drafts, not the other way around. 

I'm sorry, I missed the part where you explained how humanity makes all wars dissapear. We clap our hands and we magically end up in a ideal society where bad doesn't exist?