Explosions hit 600 kms deep into Russia

[FfFfFfFF 58,343]

17 minutes ago, Emvee said:

This is such a ridiculous standard to place on Ukraine. This is a war, but Ukraine can’t attack military targets because they’ll be “just as bad as Russia.” So you are in fact saying Ukraine needs to value Russian civilian lives more than Russia values Ukrainian civilian lives. By the way, they do. They’re not deliberately bombing Russian schools and playgrounds.

Pandora’s box is already open. It was was opened the moment Russia invaded Ukraine. If Russian civilians die in this war, the genesis of that will be in the Russian government’s decision to start this war. 

This is a strawman argument. Ukraine killing Russian civilians in its strikes on military facilities is a real possibility. What is the morality of this? To you those deaths are justified but that is your own personal and arbitrary opinion. To Russia deaths of regular Ukrainians are justified because it keeps NATO away (this is not a valid idea, but if this is what you get if you go down by the ''ends justify the means''). If the ends justify the means is an open moral question and you are disingenous if you pretend is not, you decided for yourself but don't impose your opinion on the rest of us. By the way, so far, Russia doesn't use schools ans playgrounds for military porposes (yes, Ukraine did so Amnesty International showed, and is understable why, but to say otherwise it shows you are unaware of what has been going on or buy into our own version propaganda).

[Dennis 8,391]

30 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

By the way, so far, Russia doesn't use schools ans playgrounds for military porposes (yes, Ukraine did so Amnesty International showed, and is understable why, but to say otherwise it shows you are unaware of what has been going on or buy into our own version propaganda).

As per the "Safe Schools Declaration" law, abandoned schools can be used as military bases so long that they are abandoned and as a matter of last resort, and even Amnesty International mentioned that in the same article that you refer to.

And you're trying to say Russia never did it? yes Russia did actually use schools as military bases, and definitely not as a last resort since they are the invaders. You can watch this video as an example. https://news.sky.com/video/ukraine-war-russian-troops-used-school-as-military-base-12730929

Oh and by the way, Russia uses even nuclear facilities as military bases to store and hide equipment. And since you used Amnesty International, here's a the same source for you: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/ukraine-russias-military-activities-at-nuclear-plant-risk-safety-in-region/

I'm seeing more and more tacit Putinophilia on this website and it's unfortunate. I know you say you oppose the war and don't like Putin etc. But what does it matter if you keep pushing the same dangerous talking points? Tucker Carlson and Marjorie Taylor Green also claim they don't like Putin. But their actions say otherwise.

[FfFfFfFF 58,343]

18 minutes ago, Dennis said:

As per the "Safe Schools Declaration" law, abandoned schools can be used as military bases so long that they are abandoned and as a matter of last resort, and even Amnesty International mentioned that in the same article that you refer to.

I was talking about Western propaganda claiming Ukraine didn't use schools or other civilian buildings for military purposes, which was proven false. The ''end justify the means'' axiom would mean some Russian would also argue striking abandoned schools with military in them is justified even if it leads to colateral civilian deaths. The same way you are supporting Ukraine striking Russian bases even if it leads to colateral casualities.

19 minutes ago, Dennis said:

And you're trying to say Russia never did it? yes Russia did actually use schools as military bases, and definitely not as a last resort since they are the invaders. You can watch this video as an example. https://news.sky.com/video/ukraine-war-russian-troops-used-school-as-military-base-12730929
 

Same as above: I was talking about Russia itself, not Russian occupied areas of Ukraine. Russia doesn't use schools for military purposes in Russia proper because there is no reason to. Russian targets were hit inside Ukraine in areas with Russian presence since 2014, resulting in civilian deaths -> https://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/03/world/europe/ukraine-luhansk-building-attack/index.html (posting this is crucial because you longer eve hear about this, or it simply gets brushed off as propaganda).

20 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Oh and by the way, Russia uses even nuclear facilities as military bases to store and hide equipment. And since you used Amnesty International, here's a the same source for you: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/ukraine-russias-military-activities-at-nuclear-plant-risk-safety-in-region/
 

The nuclear power plant is a topic within itself and all sides weaponize it, it should just be and remain under the UN as it was proposed.

21 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I'm seeing more and more tacit Putinophilia on this website and it's unfortunate. I know you say you oppose the war and don't like Putin etc. But what does it matter if you keep pushing the same dangerous talking points? 

I oppose the war, Putin, Russian imperialism and the idea that the invasion can have moral grounds. I also oppose the maximalistic irrational and dangerous approach some of you are falling into which is another face of the same coin. It became clear that we are very radicalized in the West and we don't even see Russians as people anymore (they can barely even enter the EU it was decided they bear the responsibility of Putin - first red flag). The EU and NATO not only want Crimea back under Ukraine (sham referendum or not, the territory is likely is majority pro-Russian and Ukraine taking it back will FORCE people to be under the control of Ukraine - the double standard is evident when you ask someone who wants Ukraine to take Crimea whether or not he believes Kosov should be independent). The EU/NATO also want the Russian regime to crumble, which in Russia would be perceived as the anihilation of Russia. Russia bears the responsibility for the war, but the direction the discourse is heading into a very absolutist direction and yes, extremisms exists on both sides.

[Dennis 8,391]

50 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

The same way you are supporting Ukraine striking Russian bases even if it leads to colateral casualities.

Yes. I support Ukraine striking russian bases, if such bases are being used to send down bombs on Ukrainians in the middle of winter shutting them out of electricity and heat. This is a no-brainer. What are they supposed to do? Sit back and watch as they die? And it's not your right to tell them what to do. Their only judge is the International Court and International law. If any country has evidence they did anything wrong, the court is open to any country in the world that wants to petition.
 

50 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

I was talking about Russia itself, not Russian occupied areas of Ukraine. Russia doesn't use schools for military purposes in Russia proper because there is no reason to.

I'm baffled by this. So because the schools were not in Russia proper you didn't bother to mention it? And falsely claimed that "Russia doesn't use schools as military facilities". So I guess invading Ukraine, taking over their schools and converting them to military bases is less noteworthy because such war crimes are not happening in russia proper? Their use of these schools is definitely not a last resort since they are invading these cities, and as such it's a war crime. So maybe mention that first before you attack Ukraine.
 

50 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

The nuclear power plant is a topic within itself and all sides weaponize it, it should just be and remain under the UN as it was proposed.

Ah we're back to the "all sides" narrative. If you want to shield Putin of responsibility, just claim all sides are just as bad. Creating the moral equivalence between a defender and a genocidal regime. Well how about Russia withdraws military equipment from inside a nuclear plant? What's so difficult about that?
 

50 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

The EU and NATO not only want Crimea back under Ukraine (sham referendum or not, the territory is likely is majority pro-Russian and Ukraine taking it back will FORCE people to be under the control of Ukraine - the double standard is evident when you ask someone who wants Ukraine to take Crimea whether or not he believes Kosov should be independent).

Honestly I'm not gonna bother addressing the Kosovo independence in 2008. You keep parroting russian propaganda talking points with these false anologies. All I'm gonna say is Kosova declaring independence in 2008 after decades of literal ethnic cleansing, and I say literal, not just "discrimination" or "islamophobia". Maybe educate yourself on the matter before you bring up. It's not the same as Russia invading Ukraine and using sham referendums held under the threat of military force to annex territory.No one wants to annihiliate russians. Maybe get this weird thought out of your head. Myself included and many other people in this website expressed sympathy for the courageous protesters and other russians who protested against the war. Yes a few european countries did ban tourist visas. But tourist visas =/= humanitarian visas & asylum. Russians are free to seek refuge in any european nation.
 

50 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

The EU/NATO also want the Russian regime to crumble, which in Russia would be perceived as the anihilation of Russia.

Yes, unapologitically I want the russian regime to crumble. And I don't conflate the russian regime with Russia as a whole. That's the dangerous russian nationalist perspective that you keep parroting on this website. There is a Russia, after Putin, and it can be better russia.

Don't equate wanting the downfall of a genocidal dictator who's responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, ukrainians and russians combined, with the "annihilation of Russia". And I don't care if russian nationalists perceive it that way. I'm not going to look at the world from the point of view of extremists and war criminals.

 

[FfFfFfFF 58,343]

10 hours ago, Dennis said:

Yes. I support Ukraine striking russian bases, if such bases are being used to send down bombs on Ukrainians in the middle of winter shutting them out of electricity and heat. This is a no-brainer. What are they supposed to do? Sit back and watch as they die? And it's not your right to tell them what to do. Their only judge is the International Court and International law. If any country has evidence they did anything wrong, the court is open to any country in the world that wants to petition.
 

I'm baffled by this. So because the schools were not in Russia proper you didn't bother to mention it? And falsely claimed that "Russia doesn't use schools as military facilities". So I guess invading Ukraine, taking over their schools and converting them to military bases is less noteworthy because such war crimes are not happening in russia proper? Their use of these schools is definitely not a last resort since they are invading these cities, and as such it's a war crime. So maybe mention that first before you attack Ukraine.
 

Ah we're back to the "all sides" narrative. If you want to shield Putin of responsibility, just claim all sides are just as bad. Creating the moral equivalence between a defender and a genocidal regime. Well how about Russia withdraws military equipment from inside a nuclear plant? What's so difficult about that?
 

Honestly I'm not gonna bother addressing the Kosovo independence in 2008. You keep parroting russian propaganda talking points with these false anologies. All I'm gonna say is Kosova declaring independence in 2008 after decades of literal ethnic cleansing, and I say literal, not just "discrimination" or "islamophobia". Maybe educate yourself on the matter before you bring up. It's not the same as Russia invading Ukraine and using sham referendums held under the threat of military force to annex territory.No one wants to annihiliate russians. Maybe get this weird thought out of your head. Myself included and many other people in this website expressed sympathy for the courageous protesters and other russians who protested against the war. Yes a few european countries did ban tourist visas. But tourist visas =/= humanitarian visas & asylum. Russians are free to seek refuge in any european nation.
 

Yes, unapologitically I want the russian regime to crumble. And I don't conflate the russian regime with Russia as a whole. That's the dangerous russian nationalist perspective that you keep parroting on this website. There is a Russia, after Putin, and it can be better russia.

Don't equate wanting the downfall of a genocidal dictator who's responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, ukrainians and russians combined, with the "annihilation of Russia". And I don't care if russian nationalists perceive it that way. I'm not going to look at the world from the point of view of extremists and war criminals.

 

You are the one who keep policing thoughts because you have an agenda to push. Kosovo declaring independence is the same as Crimea doing so, the difference is that American interests align only with one. And like many you are radicalized and blood thristy which is concerning and there's no other way around it. You do no longer value Russian lives because your entire world is all about Ukraine and its injustices (which btw happened -to an extend-both ways - you can see about the CNN article talking about Ukraine killin civilians in Donetsk above. If you were Russian/ consume Russian media you would have supported the invasion). It doesn't take a lot of digging to hear your extreme views, such as the idea that regular Russians bear the responsibility of the regime (which would also mean regular Americans were responsible for Iraq and Afganistan - if you really believe so, okay, fine, at least you are consistent).

Russia uses schools as military bases. In Ukraine but not in Russia, therefore Ukraine strikes Ukrainian schools, not Russian schools, it's not hard to understand what I was talking about. If it gets to the point Russia will need to use schools on its own territory Ukraine will strike them too.

[Dennis 8,391]

What a great reply above. Literally takes away any benefit of the doubt now. Thank you for proving my point. Anyone who knows enough about the Kosovo situation and the situation in Ukraine will see your true colors now. Peddling Putin talking points blaming the West, falsely comparing sham referendums held under military occupation with Kosovo's peaceful independence in 2008, accusing people who respect Ukraine's right to defend itself of "not caring about russian lives", and continue to mislead people about the schools claim you made. It doesn't matter if the schools are ukranian schools, if russia captures them and uses them when it's clearly not as a matter of last resort, it's a war crime. It makes no difference. Stop trying to find justification for war criminals.

If you care about russian lives, 100K+ are dead or wounded, not as a result of Ukraine bombing russian cities, but as a result of Putin sending them to their death in the trenches. Go spend your energy on that instead of attacking Ukraine for the smallest things. You suddenly care about russian lives when Ukraine takes out pilots getting ready to fly bombers and kill ukrainians.

[FfFfFfFF 58,343]

On 12/16/2022 at 8:02 AM, Dennis said:

What a great reply above. Literally takes away any benefit of the doubt now. Thank you for proving my point. Anyone who knows enough about the Kosovo situation and the situation in Ukraine will see your true colors now.

What exactly? Can you or cannot put it into words, or you're ''I just know I am right,  I cannot say why, but I know I am right'' because clearly this points to something: you yourself don't know the situation. 

On 12/16/2022 at 8:02 AM, Dennis said:

Peddling Putin talking points blaming the West, falsely comparing sham referendums held under military occupation with Kosovo's peaceful independence in 2008

Both situation of ethnic minority majority regions which didn't want to be part of Serbia/Ukraine and seceded against the constitution of said country, however Crimea wasn't recognized by the West, but Kosovo was. The model of gaining independence was the same, the only difference being American interests. You can argue that Kosovo was right to secede (and I pretty much believe so myself), but if you agree it was the case then this should apply everywhere even if you don't like it. In 2014 took place a sham referendum, but international polls indeed point to Crimea wanting to become part of Russia. It shouldn't be ''I totally believe ethnic minorities can secede, but only if it aligns to my interests''.

On 12/16/2022 at 8:02 AM, Dennis said:

accusing people who respect Ukraine's right to defend itself of "not caring about russian lives", and continue to mislead people about the schools claim you made.

Ukraine defends itself. And while defending itself Ukraine takes actions that result in Russian/ Ukrainian civilians dying. This is a reality and you need to accept it, otherwiese you write yourself off as an ideologue and a blind supporter that is willing to change reality to accomodate your worldview.

On 12/16/2022 at 8:02 AM, Dennis said:

continue to mislead people about the schools claim you made. It doesn't matter if the schools are ukranian schools, if russia captures them and uses them when it's clearly not as a matter of last resort

No correlation to what has been discussed. Russia and Ukraine alike strike schools inside the conflict zone because this is where schools are being used by the military. Ukraine cannot strike schools in Russia because for the most part Russia is not a conflict zone yet, therefore Russia doesn't use schools for military purposes. 

On 12/16/2022 at 8:02 AM, Dennis said:

If you care about russian lives, 100K+ are dead or wounded, not as a result of Ukraine bombing russian cities, but as a result of Putin sending them to their death in the trenches. Go spend your energy on that instead of attacking Ukraine for the smallest things. You suddenly care about russian lives when Ukraine takes out pilots getting ready to fly bombers and kill ukrainians.

And I support the war? you need to drop this ''I am right and whoever disagrees is a Putinist'', it's ridiculous to say I support Putin or the war. What is happening is that I see the other extreme growing and it's apparent in comments of people like you. We are not teenagers and is not ''all or nothing'', there is a place for moderation and reason. There is also an argument of people that following the war updates for now almost a war and how this (understandably) leads to radicalization. You don't see the war from the trenches, you see it from Telegram and Twitter videos. You see injustices and want to fight them, however this leads you to impulsivity and the wish to see revenge at all costs. This is not the way to go.

[Dennis 8,391]

Let me try to keep it short, because clearly you're being misleading as usual about this.

1. Kosovo suffered from ethnic cleansing, an important key difference that you intentionally ignore because you're being dishonest. If you don't know about it. Use google. Don't compare it to Crimea. And when they gained their indepence in 2008, they did so in a peaceful process. And today they are a democracy. If they regret their choice and want to rejoin Serbia, they can hold such a vote any day. 

2. You keep talking about "polls", how can you trust a country like Russia to respect crimeans freedom of choice? And let's just entertain the hypothetical that crimeans initially wanted to join Russia (literally not proven by anything other than a sham referendum), what if they regret it now, much like Americans regretted voting for Trump in 2020 and voted for Biden instead. Do they get the chance to change their fate or they're locked in forever under Putin's iron fist? You see the problem with this stupid logic? You are trusting an authoritarian regime to disclose and respect the will of the crimean people. We'll never know how crimeans truly feel, not until a truly democratic referendum is held, with the looming threat of military force removed from the equation.

So maybe quit your obsession with trying to find common ground with evil that is clear as day, for the sake of sounding neutral. I bet if the year was 1937, you'd be telling us about  how the sudetenland and Austria want to join Germany and how Hitler feels about american interests too. It's not hard to grasp. Putin is our modern day Hitler. You don't have to play the "both sides" game with it. He can unilaterally end all this bloodshed and terror. No one else shares any blame, not America, not Ukraine or anyone else. Anyone who says otherwise is simply helping his narrative. Don't "both sides" this. Just like he sent his butchers in, he can take them out any time.

 

 

[FfFfFfFF 58,343]

On 12/17/2022 at 11:56 AM, Dennis said:

Let me try to keep it short, because clearly you're being misleading as usual about this.

1. Kosovo suffered from ethnic cleansing, an important key difference that you intentionally ignore because you're being dishonest. If you don't know about it. Use google. Don't compare it to Crimea. And when they gained their indepence in 2008, they did so in a peaceful process. And today they are a democracy. If they regret their choice and want to rejoin Serbia, they can hold such a vote any day. 

2. You keep talking about "polls", how can you trust a country like Russia to respect crimeans freedom of choice? And let's just entertain the hypothetical that crimeans initially wanted to join Russia (literally not proven by anything other than a sham referendum), what if they regret it now, much like Americans regretted voting for Trump in 2020 and voted for Biden instead. Do they get the chance to change their fate or they're locked in forever under Putin's iron fist? You see the problem with this stupid logic? You are trusting an authoritarian regime to disclose and respect the will of the crimean people. We'll never know how crimeans truly feel, not until a truly democratic referendum is held, with the looming threat of military force removed from the equation.

So maybe quit your obsession with trying to find common ground with evil that is clear as day, for the sake of sounding neutral. I bet if the year was 1937, you'd be telling us about  how the sudetenland and Austria want to join Germany and how Hitler feels about american interests too. It's not hard to grasp. Putin is our modern day Hitler. You don't have to play the "both sides" game with it. He can unilaterally end all this bloodshed and terror. No one else shares any blame, not America, not Ukraine or anyone else. Anyone who says otherwise is simply helping his narrative. Don't "both sides" this. Just like he sent his butchers in, he can take them out any time.

 

 

Everybody who disgarees with you is misleading or sprading misinformation, sure. The misleadinness is you trying to fit facts you don't like into narratives, such as saying Kosovo ''gained'' independence peacefully. Kosovo and Serbia fought a war, what was so ''peaceful'' about the Yugoslav Civil Wars? Kosovo seceded and then Serbia unleashed their force against them commiting many war crimes. Use google yourself and look up at the timeline of the Yugoslav Wars. Both Kosovo and Crimea seceded from their respective countries unlawfully, meaning against the consitution of these countries. It was a unilateral secession which truhtfully may be sometimes justified but internationally very very few countries simply allow regions to secede. 

2. There are European-backed and Ukrainian pools showing Crimea wanted to secede from Ukraine and nobody ever denies that Crimea was majority pro-Russian in 2014. You are being misleading if you try to pretend otherwise, that Crimea was actually a stronholg of pro-Ukrainianness of something. It doesn't take a lot of digging to find how Crimea unquestionably wanted to separate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Polling 

I love the WW2 exemple because it doesn't prove what you think it does. Instead, it shows that German imperialism (which was the 20th century version of Russian imperialism) couldn't be defeated by a world war. It took 2 World Wars. Unless NATO will occupy Russia and Moscow the same way Allies occupied Berlin, Russian imperialism will not dissapear the same way German imperialism didn't dissapear in WW1, and the bad news is that 99% of the people in the West are not willing to fight this war. The world will either need to live with Russian imperialism or defeat it.

[Dennis 8,391]

38 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

Everybody who disgarees with you is misleading or sprading misinformation, sure. The misleadinness is you trying to fit facts you don't like into narratives, such as saying Kosovo ''gained'' independence peacefully. Kosovo and Serbia fought a war, what was so ''peaceful'' about the Yugoslav Civil Wars? Kosovo seceded and then Serbia unleashed their force against them commiting many war crimes. Use google yourself and look up at the timeline of the Yugoslav Wars. Both Kosovo and Crimea seceded from their respective countries unlawfully, meaning against the consitution of these countries. It was a unilateral secession which truhtfully may be sometimes justified but internationally very very few countries simply allow regions to secede. 

2. There are European-backed and Ukrainian pools showing Crimea wanted to secede from Ukraine and nobody ever denies that Crimea was majority pro-Russian in 2014. You are being misleading if you try to pretend otherwise, that Crimea was actually a stronholg of pro-Ukrainianness of something. It doesn't take a lot of digging to find how Crimea unquestionably wanted to separate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum#Polling 

I love the WW2 exemple because it doesn't prove what you think it does. Instead, it shows that German imperialism (which was the 20th century version of Russian imperialism) couldn't be defeated by a world war. It took 2 World Wars. Unless NATO will occupy Russia and Moscow the same way Allies occupied Berlin, Russian imperialism will not dissapear the same way German imperialism didn't dissapear in WW1, and the bad news is that 99% of the people in the West are not willing to fight this war. The world will either need to live with Russian imperialism or defeat it.

I feel like you really lack history knowledge. And it feels like beating a dead horse:

1. You got the timelines mixed up. Kosovo's independence came about in 2008. The Yugoslav wars ended in 1999. So that was after 9 years of peace. They suffered an ethnic cleansing. How many times do I have to say this? You just casually ignore it everytime I mention it. But I guess their human losses don't matter to you. Crimeans did not suffer from any ethnic cleansing under Ukrainians (ironically they were subjected it under soviet rule, go read on the forced deportations of the tatars, replaced with russian settlers similar to what happened in Kaliningrad).

2. As I said in my previous post, Kosovo is a representative democracy today. We can trust them to respect people's right to self-determination. If they wish to rejoin Serbia at any moment, they can hold a vote. How is this going to happen with Crimea? You want them so badly to remain under Russian authoritarian rule but if the newer generations don't want to? You can't force millions of people under a dictator, collectively and say well it's their right to self determination. Even if its a 50%+1 majority it can change at any moment, and because it's a dictatorship it would mean a point of no return, torture and suffering for all the millions who did not wish to rejoin Russia.

And no, my WW2 example shows that people like you back then who validated Hitler's "protection of ethnic germans" claims have emboldened him and lead to WW2. Because if he didn't sense european weakness from the get go, WW2 wouldn't have happened.

 There are ethnic russians in certain parts of the baltic nations, I think the smart person that you are will suggest that we carve up the baltics?

I don't want Ukraine to go for Crimea now, because I think the best course forward is to only reverse gains since February 24th. But I'm not gonna sit here and validate/justify Putin and Hitler's similar claims of protection of their german/russian minorities while carving up their neighbors.
 

[FfFfFfFF 58,343]

16 minutes ago, Dennis said:

I feel like you really lack history knowledge. And it feels like beating a dead horse:

1. You got the timelines mixed up. Kosovo's independence came about in 2008. The Yugoslav wars ended in 1999. So that was after 9 years of peace. They suffered an ethnic cleansing. How many times do I have to say this? You just casually ignore it everytime I mention it. But I guess their human losses don't matter to you. Crimeans did not suffer from any ethnic cleansing under Ukrainians (ironically they were subjected it under soviet rule, go read on the forced deportations of the tatars, replaced with russian settlers similar to what happened in Kaliningrad).

2. As I said in my previous post, Kosovo is a representative democracy today. We can trust them to respect people's right to self-determination. If they wish to rejoin Serbia at any moment, they can hold a vote. How is this going to happen with Crimea? You want them so badly to remain under Russian authoritarian rule but if the newer generations don't want to? You can't force millions of people under a dictator, collectively and say well it's their right to self determination. Even if its a 50%+1 majority it can change at any moment, and because it's a dictatorship it would mean a point of no return, torture and suffering for all the millions who did not wish to rejoin Russia.

And no, my WW2 example shows that people like you back then who validated Hitler's "protection of ethnic germans" claims have emboldened him and lead to WW2. Because if he didn't sense european weakness from the get go, WW2 wouldn't have happened.

 There are ethnic russians in certain parts of the baltic nations, I think the smart person that you are will suggest that we carve up the baltics?

 

Nope, you are unaware of the history.

1. Kosovo gained independence during the Yugoslav Civil Wars in 1999 and declared it in 2008 during peace time. The independence was however gained through war in the 90s. Denying it means you also deny Taiwan is independent nowadays just because it didn't formally declared it. My suggestion is, read more on the issue so you will have a better representation of the timeline and when the ethnic cleansing took place.

2. You are porposefully being misleading once again. You either support self-determination or territorial integrity. These are two competing princiles and there is no need to invent arbitrary definitions. America supports both depending in its interests which results in uneven stuff such as supporting Kosovo but not Crimea. 

However I will say that I love how after I pointed you that even Ukrainian pools showed Crimea wanted to secede this sudenly dissapread from your agenda. That time you didn't spread ''misinfornation'' like me or just lies? Try to use more of this energy that you spent doing mental gimnastics militating for wars that happen outside American interests, such as the ones in Yemen, Ethiopia etc. These do not receive the same mainstream attention in your American home, but I believe it will be useful in order to temper your constant push for revenge at all cost. It will prove you wars and war crimes happen everywhere and we are already doing what we can within limits. 

[Dennis 8,391]

18 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

Nope, you are unaware of the history.

1. Kosovo gained independence during the Yugoslav Civil Wars in 1999 and declared it in 2008 during peace time. The independence was however gained through war in the 90s. Denying it means you also deny Taiwan is independent nowadays just because it didn't formally declared it. My suggestion is, read more on the issue so you will have a better representation of the timeline and when the ethnic cleansing took place.

2. You are porposefully being misleading once again. You either support self-determination or territorial integrity. These are two competing princiles and there is no need to invent arbitrary definitions. America supports both depending in its interests which results in uneven stuff such as supporting Kosovo but not Crimea. 

However I will say that I love how after I pointed you that even Ukrainian pools showed Crimea wanted to secede this sudenly dissapread from your agenda. That time you didn't spread ''misinfornation'' like me or just lies? Try to use more of this energy that you spent doing mental gimnastics militating for wars that happen outside American interests, such as the ones in Yemen, Ethiopia etc. These do not receive the same mainstream attention in your American home, but I believe it will be useful in order to temper your constant push for revenge at all cost. It will prove you wars and war crimes happen everywhere and we are already doing what we can within limits. 

1. Kosovo formed an army to stop the genocide of the muslim albanian minority in the 90s. The decision to declare independence came about in 2008. Not gonna waste time on convincing you of a simple fact.

2. By suggesting that I have to choose between "territorial integrity" and "the right to self-determination", you once again show a lack of knowledge on this matter. It's not a black and white issue. There are international law maxims that determine the issue of self-determination and secession, and here's a direct quote for you:

"Today, it may be concluded that international law bestows on all peoples the right to self-determination, but that the right to external self-determination, exercised through remedial secession, only applies in extreme circumstances, to colonized and severely persecuted peoples. " (source)

You understand now why I keep insisting that Kosovars were subjected to ethnic cleansing but crimeans were not? Because that's the criteria that determines whether a secession is valid or not under international law.

(and P.S, not sure why you're bringing up taiwan, it seems that false anologies is your thing , btw Taiwan was never under communist china rule, the issue is not about secession, the issue is about whether the west wants to recognize two chinas or only one china. Gosh not gonna write another essay about this for you)

[FfFfFfFF 58,343]

4 minutes ago, Dennis said:

1. Kosovo formed an army to stop the genocide of the muslim albanian minority in the 90s. The decision to declare independence came about in 2008. Not gonna waste time on convincing you of a simple fact.

2. You once again show a lack of knowledge on this matter. It's not a black and white issue. There are international law maxims that determine the issue of self-determination and secession, and here's a direct quote for you:

"Today, it may be concluded that international law bestows on all peoples the right to self-determination, but that the right to external self-determination, exercised through remedial secession, only applies in extreme circumstances, to colonized and severely persecuted peoples. " (source)

You understand now why I keep insisting that Kosovars were subjected to ethnic cleansing but crimeans were not? Because that's the criteria that determines whether a secession is valid or not under international law

I gather that you accept you were wrong when you claimed that the only proof that Crimea wanted to secede was the referendum, well I am glad I helped you clear that up, though I see there are other things that you are confused about.

1. Kosovo fought A SECESSION WAR in 1990s and with the help of NATO it then broke away from Serbia. The formal declaration of the independence which was achieved in the 90s took place in 2008. Likewise Taiwan achieved independence from China ata previous point in time, but the formal declaration of independence is yet to come, which doesn't deny Taiwan is independent already.

3. Things are black and white when it fits your view, but suddenly when you stand on more shaky grounds the nuance appears. Well guess what, ''international law'' is ambigious and countries cannot agree on it to begin with. There are many countries which have secessionist ambitions and all of them justify them differently. There is 0 international consensus over how these should be handled starting from Kosovo and Catalonia to Scotland and Quebec.

[Dennis 8,391]

13 minutes ago, FfFfFfFF said:

1. Kosovo fought A SECESSION WAR in 1990s and with the help of NATO it then broke away from Serbia. The formal declaration of the independence which was achieved in the 90s took place in 2008. Likewise Taiwan achieved independence from China ata previous point in time, but the formal declaration of independence is yet to come, which doesn't deny Taiwan is independent already.

3. Things are black and white when it fits your view, but suddenly when you stand on more shaky grounds the nuance appears. Well guess what, ''international law'' is ambigious and countries cannot agree on it to begin with. There are many countries which have secessionist ambitions and all of them justify them differently. There is 0 international consensus over how these should be handled starting from Kosovo and Catalonia to Scotland and Quebec.

Tell me you don't know about History of taiwan without telling me you don't know the history of Taiwan.

Taiwan never had to "achieve independence" from PRC, because it was never part of PRC to begin with. Oh my god big surprise right? Taiwan was part of Japan. And then a civil war happened between Nationalist China and Communist China similar to the korean conflict. Nationalist China retreated to Taiwan, which is the only territory it still controls. Nationalist China was the only China recognized in the United Nations, but then it flipped in the 70s.

 can you pay me to be your history teacher cuz this is tiring. Friend, please focus more on reading history instead of conspiracy theories about Nato the U.S.

[FfFfFfFF 58,343]

29 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Tell me you don't know about History of taiwan without telling me you don't know the history of Taiwan.

Taiwan never had to "achieve independence" from PRC, because it was never part of PRC to begin with. Oh my god big surprise right? Taiwan was part of Japan. And then a civil war happened between Nationalist China and Communist China similar to the korean conflict. Nationalist China retreated to Taiwan, which is the only territory it still controls. Nationalist China was the only China recognized in the United Nations, but then it flipped in the 70s.

 can you pay me to be your history teacher cuz this is tiring. Friend, please focus more on reading history instead of conspiracy theories about Nato the U.S.

Taiwan was part of China and the US and most Western (or not Western) nations formally still recognize Taiwan as part of China (the reason being the Sino-Soviet split, just to give you one more exemple of the US seeking its geopolitical interests at all costs, not '''democracy'', not ''freedom'' or other propaganda themes that you justify your foreign policy on - as a matter of fact Taiwan is to this day not UN member). You just love muddling the waters, don't you? Everything you don't like are misinfornation and conspiracy theories, my friend. I have posted 0 conspiracies instead you posted many verifiabily false things throught out this conversation, such as: the idea that there are no international polls showing Crimea wanted to become part of Russia which is unequivocally false. And others.