Explosions hit 600 kms deep into Russia

[Dennis 8,391]

1 minute ago, FfFfFfFF said:

Irelevant.

Ukrainian or Western we are atill talking about weapons being used by a Western ally to strike military targets into Russia (first into Belgorid, then Kursk, then this - you are just naive to think other cities won't follow). This goes to show how red lines are continously and mutually being crossed and this transforms into something big. If you are so pro-Ukraine that you don't care about the consequences of these actions, you can fight as a volunteer already, but the rest of us may mot be willing to do so.

Who brought up volunteering? You once again made a blatantly false claim. And I only called you out on that. Just don't mislead people. You can talk all you want about how the West should force Ukraine to surrender or whatever nonsense you believe in, but please don't post misinformation or things you have no sources/evidence for, that's all.

[FfFfFfFF 58,845]

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

And I don't think russian lives are more valuable than Ukrainians lives.

 

The lives of  Russian civilians are equally important as lives of Ukrainian civilians. If you believe otherwise you prove that Putin's idea that the West wants to erase and genocide Russians as true and it just shows you are blinded by revenge.

Were the lives of Americans less important than lives or Iraqi when Us was comitting war crimes in the Middle East? 

[Dennis 8,391]

Genociding russians?????



Now they're quite literally putting words in my mouth 
welp time to leave this thread

[FfFfFfFF 58,845]

1 hour ago, Dennis said:

 

This is their battle. They're the ones dealing with the consequences and feeling the pain. It's not our place. 

 

This is emotional manipulation. Ukraine doesn't fight in a vaccum and is heavily aided by a coalition of states, therefore Ukraine has a certain responsability to said states.

[FfFfFfFF 58,845]

 

[FfFfFfFF 58,845]

 

[FfFfFfFF 58,845]

 

[Emvee 8,869]

On 12/6/2022 at 12:56 AM, FfFfFfFF said:

The lives of  Russian civilians are equally important as lives of Ukrainian civilians. If you believe otherwise you prove that Putin's idea that the West wants to erase and genocide Russians as true and it just shows you are blinded by revenge.

Were the lives of Americans less important than lives or Iraqi when Us was comitting war crimes in the Middle East? 

Nobody is targeting Russian civilians though. These were strategic strikes and there is nothing that indicates Ukraine will move on to attacking civilians. Unlike Russia. 

[FfFfFfFF 58,845]

9 minutes ago, Emvee said:

Nobody is targeting Russian civilians though. These were strategic strikes and there is nothing that indicates Ukraine will move on to attacking civilians. 

I was commenting in response to this portion of Denis' post ''And I don't think russian lives are more valuable than Ukrainians lives.'' Either way, even strikes on military targets can kill civilians, I am having a very hard time believing Ukraine's strikes on Belgorod didn't kill anybody in 8 months. This is something Western media will not report, but the closest thing is this article from New York times where it says Ukraine didn't comment on Russia's claims that 4 civilians died because of an Ukrainian missile being intercepted over Russia https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/03/world/europe/ukraine-war-lysychansk.html. Justifying even 4 deaths on the basis that they are justified colateral damage opens up a Pandora box and resembles Russia's claims that the invasion is justified because Russia seeks its greater good. 

[FfFfFfFF 58,845]

 

[PartySick 174,656]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:40 AM, Dennis said:

It's beyond insulting if we ask and expect ukrainians to worry more about russian lives than their own, nor can we ask them to await their death without fighting back because we're afraid of Putin. This is their battle. They're the ones dealing with the consequences and feeling the pain. It's not our place. My only ask, is in their fight they must adhere to the rules of war in international law. And this attack on a russian base does not violate that.

Oop, didn't see this reply.

This is well and good and all, I'm just simply saying that if it does escalate to them attacking Russian civilians I will personally consider this war to be between two genocidal nations with war criminal leaders instead of one nation defending itself against another.

And yes, absolutely, the people I love in Russia matter more to me than the people I don't know in Ukraine. That's just how humans are. And if the people I love come under threat because of Ukrainian war efforts, I will 100% be against Ukraine. Not to say I'm rooting for Russia, but that's when the war stops having a "good guy" and a "bad guy".

Considering the track record nations have with sticking to the "rules of war" I don't have much faith in Ukraine to make the best decisions here. I hope they prove me wrong though.

[Dennis 8,391]

5 hours ago, PartySick said:

 And if the people I love come under threat because of Ukrainian war efforts, I will 100% be against Ukraine.

Sorry but it doesn't work that way. Don't shift the blame. If you care about people in Russia, then help convince them to stay away from working for the russian military in any capacity or help arrange a way for them to reach out to human rights organizations if they want to leave Russia. And I strongly believe in helping Russians who oppose this war. This has been my stance all along. But don't shift the blame to Ukraine. Putin and the russian government are responsible. Putin can end the war tomorrow by simply withdrawing from Ukraine. And only he will bear the responsibility of their death if they work in a russian military facility or other legitimate targets as per the international law.

And whether you have faith in Ukraine or not, as I said their only obligation is to stick to international law and so far they have done so. I think it's absolutely in their interest to do so. They have a definitive right to attack russian bases and other legitimate targets in Russia. And no one can question that right to defend themselves from these missiles and bombers. But they also have an obligation to comply with international law when executing these missions. We don't make our own special rules for Ukraine, based on whether you know people there or not. The rules are already there, and they apply to everyone equally, both Russia and Ukraine.

[bpmMonkey 7,856]

14 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Sorry but it doesn't work that way. Don't shift the blame. If you care about people in Russia, then help convince them to stay away from working for the russian military in any capacity or help arrange a way for them to reach out to human rights organizations if they want to leave Russia. And I strongly believe in helping Russians who oppose this war. This has been my stance all along. But don't shift the blame to Ukraine. Putin and the russian government are responsible. Putin can end the war tomorrow by simply withdrawing from Ukraine. And only he will bear the responsibility of their death if they work in a russian military facility or other legitimate targets as per the international law.

And whether you have faith in Ukraine or not, as I said their only obligation is to stick to international law and so far they have done so. I think it's absolutely in their interest to do so. They have a definitive right to attack russian bases and other legitimate targets in Russia. And no one can question that right to defend themselves from these missiles and bombers. But they also have an obligation to comply with international law when executing these missions. We don't make our own special rules for Ukraine, based on whether you know people there or not. The rules are already there, and they apply to everyone equally, both Russia and Ukraine.

I think you mistake a war driven by governments with one that’s held by nations. It is a fair point to be frighten for people who just happen to live on a territory with a government that thought its a good idea to have a war. No one is shifting blame, youre standpoint is just pretty naive and moralistic/childish per usual. 

[Dennis 8,391]

6 minutes ago, gypsy Hero said:

I think you mistake a war driven by governments with one that’s held by nations. It is a fair point to be frighten for people who just happen to live on a territory with a government that thought its a good idea to have a war. No one is shifting blame, youre standpoint is just pretty naive and moralistic/childish per usual. 

I don't even understand what you're saying, but it's probably for the best, best to not bother entertaining this, especially considering the language you end your post with, and your other posts on this topic in the past. 

[Emvee 8,869]

On 12/7/2022 at 1:33 PM, FfFfFfFF said:

I was commenting in response to this portion of Denis' post ''And I don't think russian lives are more valuable than Ukrainians lives.'' Either way, even strikes on military targets can kill civilians, I am having a very hard time believing Ukraine's strikes on Belgorod didn't kill anybody in 8 months. This is something Western media will not report, but the closest thing is this article from New York times where it says Ukraine didn't comment on Russia's claims that 4 civilians died because of an Ukrainian missile being intercepted over Russia https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/03/world/europe/ukraine-war-lysychansk.html. Justifying even 4 deaths on the basis that they are justified colateral damage opens up a Pandora box and resembles Russia's claims that the invasion is justified because Russia seeks its greater good. 

This is such a ridiculous standard to place on Ukraine. This is a war, but Ukraine can’t attack military targets because they’ll be “just as bad as Russia.” So you are in fact saying Ukraine needs to value Russian civilian lives more than Russia values Ukrainian civilian lives. By the way, they do. They’re not deliberately bombing Russian schools and playgrounds.

Pandora’s box is already open. It was was opened the moment Russia invaded Ukraine. If Russian civilians die in this war, the genesis of that will be in the Russian government’s decision to start this war.