LaLa 19,898 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 Lots of segments of public life already require vaccination -- children require up to date shots to start school, military personnel require lots of vaccinations depending on where they are deployed, many jobs require vaccination (my mother worked in a lab for years and was always required to be up to date, they even tested her antibodies when she started work to make sure her childhood stuff hadn't worn off). Nobody holds these people down and jabs them, but there are consequences if they aren't vaccinated. Same in this case -- they'll be fined, not forcibly vaccinated. Society requires we set aside individualism sometimes for the grater good, and maintaining public heath is one of those things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartySick 172,394 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 An ultimatum is still a choice. Their body autonomy is still intact. But if they don't want to do their part for society by getting vaccinated then they'll do their part by giving said society $4,000 There's really no excuse and I'm 100% here for people being punished for making sh*tty decisions that hurt everyone around them. Whimsical bitch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ItWasntLaauv 6,392 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 Slay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEARTSTOP 3,154 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 1 hour ago, AnnaNicoleSmith said: The keyword is dangerous. It's dangerous that a lot of people think it's okay and normal, it never happened before in other pandemics. Now everyone is okay with jailing people who are not vaccinated, fining them a crazy amount of money, or punishing them in any shape or form. I find it insane, and maybe people got accustomed with lockdowns, and being told what to do for 2 years and that's dangerous. Not only that but it's divisive. Idk what happened but ever since Trump got in power, there's been a weird shift in the world, where it's always Z vs X, with a multitude of labels so that you can pit one person against another. And in problems like a pandemic, as humans we get angry, sad, scared, and in those moments what do we do? We pick a scapegoat, we pick a villain, we picked it now, it's the "anti-vaxxer". So now you can focus all your anger and hurt towards this category of people, and you punish them, you insult them, you jail them, you make them suffer. We need to learn to be better, but we always end up acting like animals Except it did happen in other pandemics. https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/coronavirus/a-history-of-vaccine-mandate-and-how-people-reacted-then-and-now/2984174/ https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20211029-why-mandatory-vaccination-is-nothing-new People who purposefully choose to not get vaccinated are hurting society, just like people who damage public property, people who drunk drive, or people who don't pay taxes. There are rules to live in society, and the government is there to impose them. IDGAF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chromatography 10,186 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 1 hour ago, AnnaNicoleSmith said: The keyword is dangerous. It's dangerous that a lot of people think it's okay and normal, it never happened before in other pandemics. Now everyone is okay with jailing people who are not vaccinated, fining them a crazy amount of money, or punishing them in any shape or form. I find it insane, and maybe people got accustomed with lockdowns, and being told what to do for 2 years and that's dangerous. Not only that but it's divisive. Idk what happened but ever since Trump got in power, there's been a weird shift in the world, where it's always Z vs X, with a multitude of labels so that you can pit one person against another. And in problems like a pandemic, as humans we get angry, sad, scared, and in those moments what do we do? We pick a scapegoat, we pick a villain, we picked it now, it's the "anti-vaxxer". So now you can focus all your anger and hurt towards this category of people, and you punish them, you insult them, you jail them, you make them suffer. We need to learn to be better, but we always end up acting like animals that’s because in previous pandemics the viruses were deadly enough it killed people faster than it could spread. literally that is the reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKANK 14,288 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 32 minutes ago, PartySick said: An ultimatum is still a choice. Their body autonomy is still intact. But if they don't want to do their part for society by getting vaccinated then they'll do their part by giving said society $4,000 There's really no excuse and I'm 100% here for people being punished for making sh*tty decisions that hurt everyone around them. If poor women are unable to jump through the hurdles their local government have set up in order to prevent them from having an abortion, on a literal level they may still have the "right to choose," but on a practical level their bodily autonomy has been taken away based on the limitations of their income. Right? Similarly, if you are fining unvaccinated people a significant amount of money, the only individuals who still realistically have a "choice" in the matter are the wealthy. You are putting low-income folks in the position of "chosing" to pay a fine which they can absolutely not afford, or taking a vaccine they do not want take. That isn't a choice, not really. Based on your posts I'm sure we share that same views about vaccines and the unvaccinated, but this decision does not realistically give low-income folks a choice in the matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOVEDRUG 11,248 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 1 hour ago, HuffsAhoy said: Gosh, if only there was a simple solution to avoid this scenario the point is not that they should or should not be losing their homes, the point is that fines are immoral as a method of punishment as one fine could be catastrophic for someone on minimum wage but incosequential for a corporate executive. it's not a proportionate punishment for anything, much less for something that has the same consequence regardless of income. "through all the tears and all the lies, i'm gonna dance until i feel alright" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PartySick 172,394 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 14 minutes ago, SKANK said: If poor women are unable to jump through the hurdles their local government have set up in order to prevent them from having an abortion, on a literal level they may still have the "right to choose," but on a practical level their bodily autonomy has been taken away based on the limitations of their income. Right? Similarly, if you are fining unvaccinated people a significant amount of money, the only individuals who still realistically have a "choice" in the matter are the wealthy. You are putting low-income folks in the position of "chosing" to pay a fine which they can absolutely not afford, or taking a vaccine they do not want take. That isn't a choice, not really. Based on your posts I'm sure we share that same views about vaccines and the unvaccinated, but this decision does not realistically give low-income folks a choice in the matter. I wouldn't equate abortion rights to the covid vaccine debate, mainly because a woman's right to choose only really impacts her and sometimes the father while someone refusing the covid vaccine could lead to a myriad of complications like that person being the breeding ground for a new variant, that person taking up an ICU bed and medical resources, or simply that person having a higher chance of infecting other people. The similarity between that and a woman's right is there but also it really isn't. Also, I'm struggling to find sympathy for anyone who can't pay a $4,000 fine when the only reason they're paying that fine is because they refuse to get vaccinated despite being able to I think the general debate of fines as punishments is a fair one to have (as an example, a parking ticket is nothing to one person but might cause someone else to miss their rent) it definitely needs to be addressed but the covid vaccine mandate isn't really the cause to be debating that on imo. But if y'all want to suggest we imprison anti-vaxxers rather than fine them, I'm cool with that too it's been two years since covid really hit and vaccines have been around for centuries. Anyone who's against them is really just a detriment to society at this point and they're holding the rest of us back. Lock 'em up, fine 'em, I don't really care I know that's callous but meh Whimsical bitch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Puppies 36,615 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 16 minutes ago, PartySick said: mainly because a woman's right to choose only really impacts her Thanks THEY CALL ME LADY MOP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shipper 13,114 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 3 hours ago, Melancholia said: i don't care it's gross. no government should have this much control over someone's medical decisions. as i've said before, you can influence and pressure them as much as you want, but the minute you start doing stuff like this, it's authoritarian. people who don't get vaxxed are selfish and gross and hugely misinformed, but i still don't wish forceful vaccination upon them. on top of this, poorer antivaxxers are gonna default on their rent and potentially lose their homes because of these fines, whilst richer ones aren't gonna care and will just pay the fine. it sets a dangerous precedent. Because they utilize government facilities, labor, and time, ALL of which cost money when they get sick and occupy a hospital bed. Rich people will be able to pay the money to sustain their stupidity and pay their hospital bills than the stubborn poorer ones who will go straight to utilize a government hospital when they get sick. 🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶🩶 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKANK 14,288 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 1 hour ago, PartySick said: I wouldn't equate abortion rights to the covid vaccine debate, mainly because a woman's right to choose only really impacts her and sometimes the father while someone refusing the covid vaccine could lead to a myriad of complications like that person being the breeding ground for a new variant, that person taking up an ICU bed and medical resources, or simply that person having a higher chance of infecting other people. The similarity between that and a woman's right is there but also it really isn't. Also, I'm struggling to find sympathy for anyone who can't pay a $4,000 fine when the only reason they're paying that fine is because they refuse to get vaccinated despite being able to I think the general debate of fines as punishments is a fair one to have (as an example, a parking ticket is nothing to one person but might cause someone else to miss their rent) it definitely needs to be addressed but the covid vaccine mandate isn't really the cause to be debating that on imo. But if y'all want to suggest we imprison anti-vaxxers rather than fine them, I'm cool with that too it's been two years since covid really hit and vaccines have been around for centuries. Anyone who's against them is really just a detriment to society at this point and they're holding the rest of us back. Lock 'em up, fine 'em, I don't really care I know that's callous but meh I wasn't equating women seeking abortion's to people who reject vaccines, I was comparing them. There is a difference. Both issues are about bodily autonomy, the government injecting () itself into the medical decisions of citizens by way of financial burdens, and how the government's involvement will disproportionately effect low-income individuals--there by robbing them of their choice. I agree that anyone who is unvaccinated without legitimate medical cause is irresponsible at best, and dangerous at worst, and having sympathy for their concerns is hard when you think about the burden our health care workers have been under. However, jailing poor folks and not their rich peers for making the exact same decision, simply because one person is able to afford a 4,000 fine and the other isn't, should give everyone pause. Whether the government is creating a financial burden to limit abortions or get people vaccinated, that financial burden inevitably only limits the choices poor folks can make. Choice and bodily autonomy should not be dependent on a person's economic status. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukiiGleek 212 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 i mean i got vaccinated and got my booster. tested positive, spread it to household contacts and we all had symptoms. but yeah just a 'breakthrough' infection. Don't come for me lol but it doesnt seem that effective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Concertaholic 6,578 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, LukiiGleek said: i mean i got vaccinated and got my booster. tested positive, spread it to household contacts and we all had symptoms. but yeah just a 'breakthrough' infection. Don't come for me lol but it doesnt seem that effective. But that’s the thing, you never know how it’s going to affect you. That’s why it’s important to get vaccinated, because chances are when you’re vaccinated you won’t have serious illness. I had Covid pre-vaccine back in June 2020 and I couldn’t get out of bed for a week, literally walking to the bathroom made me feel like I was gonna pass out. Now I’m fully vaccinated + boosted and it turns out I had a breakthrough case around two weeks ago and I didn’t even know it. No symptoms whatsoever, literally nothing. I had to get tested to go back to work following the New Year and it came back positive otherwise I would’ve never known. Had I not been vaccinated I’d like to think that I probably would’ve been sick like I had before but then again you can never really know so that’s why you should just get vaccinated so you don’t even chance it. It’s literally like playing Russian roulette otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gothicdream 39,655 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 I despise the comparison of this to abortion rights. And that the anti-vax movement has co-opted "my body my choice." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsleepOnTheCeiling 6,939 Posted January 16, 2022 Share Posted January 16, 2022 3 hours ago, AnnaNicoleSmith said: The keyword is dangerous. It's dangerous that a lot of people think it's okay and normal, it never happened before in other pandemics. Now everyone is okay with jailing people who are not vaccinated, fining them a crazy amount of money, or punishing them in any shape or form. I find it insane, and maybe people got accustomed with lockdowns, and being told what to do for 2 years and that's dangerous. Not only that but it's divisive. Idk what happened but ever since Trump got in power, there's been a weird shift in the world, where it's always Z vs X, with a multitude of labels so that you can pit one person against another. And in problems like a pandemic, as humans we get angry, sad, scared, and in those moments what do we do? We pick a scapegoat, we pick a villain, we picked it now, it's the "anti-vaxxer". So now you can focus all your anger and hurt towards this category of people, and you punish them, you insult them, you jail them, you make them suffer. We need to learn to be better, but we always end up acting like animals Man it's almost as if these people are part of a society, which involves a social contract. If you're benefiting from living among a civilization, you should follow the basic rules of that civilization. One of the most basic principles is ensuring you don't just kill other members of society. Which freely hosting a deadly virus in your body does. If you care about the denomination of money, you're a member of said society and should therefore get vaccinated, because society is a symbiotic relationship, not a parasitic one. 23 minutes ago, LukiiGleek said: i mean i got vaccinated and got my booster. tested positive, spread it to household contacts and we all had symptoms. but yeah just a 'breakthrough' infection. Don't come for me lol but it doesnt seem that effective. How many people outside your house did you spread it to? By how much contact? And what were the outcomes of those involved? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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