14th poll shows support for Scottish Independence

[Better Day 5,766]

1 hour ago, KORG said:

Think of all the juicy restrictions the conservatives will put on you  by that point  

I’m ready for protests then. 

[YaaaasGaga 6,119]

4 hours ago, monster4life231 said:

I read somewhere too that Yorkshire has around the same population (and I think GDP too), of Scotland, so it would actually be a feasible proposition.

I think Yorkshire and Scotland would be a fabulous duo personally so I'm down! I'll get drawing up the agreement now...

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

3 hours ago, Dulo Peep said:

That sounds slightly utopic 

Are you sure you guys are ready for this? 

Bissssh we've BEEN ready. We literally fund the UK

[OMonster 15,025]

I see Scottish independence as a very emotional and hot-headed debate - it's a 'culture war' whipped up by media frenzy and bi-partisanship; it's not rooted in much more than an 'us vs. them' mentality, which (imo) isn't sensible and avoids the deep-rooted problems in the UK and Scotland.  

As the polls confirm: the main argument for Scottish Independence comes down to right-wing politics... but Scotland shares that as a common 'enemy' with vast regions of the rest of the UK, including (ironically) London and (more obviously) Yorkshire. With more devolution to Scotland, and perhaps a more strategic UNION between anti-tory regions, I believe Scotland could continue to prosper *and* bring about more change for the rest of the UK. 

It could be argued, for example, that the SNP is one of the main reasons Scotland (and the UK) is - ultimately - ruled by a Tory government. It's also the reason why Scotland is leaving the EU. 

Why?

Because had the SNP built a pact with, say, Scottish Labour to not contest Scottish seats in the GENERAL ELECTION (not Scottish elections) - then, the UK (collectively) would not be where it is today. Labour would've been in power, most likely, since 2015 under Ed Miliband, Brexit would not have happened, and the rise in Scottish (and English) populism would not have been. 

This is just one example of why the Union could equal the ideals Scotland wants of left-wing politics, more devolution, and a close relationship with the EU. 

And the reason, imo, why independence isn't the right means to reach those ends is that it is wholly utopic in that it is an argument that - now, in 2020 - is entirely removed from the facts. 

Why?

Because Brexit happened. 

We can't undo Brexit - it's done. 

And its impact on Scottish Independence is so huge that it renders it counterproductive. 

There are two outcomes to Scottish Independence, post-Brexit:

1) Scotland is independent, and has a border between itself and the EU. There is no border between Scotland and the UK because they share the same customs union, since they are BOTH outside of the EU in this scenario. This would, therefore, require Scotland to be an independent nation OUTSIDE of the EU... despite membership being one of the driving forces for independence. 

2) Scotland is independent, and has a border between itself and the UK. This is because it has been granted membership of the EU and is therefore in a DIFFERENT customs union to the UK, which - as we know - will require a border, since the EU requires its territory to be defined by borders on the basis of trade regulations. 

The first option isn't particularly attractive for Scotland, since it requires the country to function - essentially - as a vessel state of the UK. It'll have even less say than it currently does in the Union (since it'll be out of it) but, equally, won't be a member of the EU. 

The second option would see Scotland even *more* removed from the benefits of the Union, since there will be a border between it and the rest of the UK, which will impact trade. 

Why does this matter? 

Because Scotland exports more THREE TIMES to the UK than it does to the EU... despite already having a lot of control over who it exports to. 

So... some points to end on:

1) Scottish Independence means a Scotland that has a border to its closest allies, in either scenario. And while it is true that a 'dependent' Scotland would have to face a border to the EU if it remained in the UK - this would be significantly less harmful to the country than a border with the UK would be. 

2) An independent Scotland out of the EU would be completely counterproductive, as A) it would have less say in the UK, and no say over EU relations, and B) when the UK eventually forms a deal with the EU, Scotland would not be part of it. 

3) If Scotland stayed with the UK, left the EU and worked strategically with its UK allies (such as Scottish Labour), then Scotland could A) remain tied to its closest ally, B) bring about more devolution, C) bring down Tory governments, and D) benefit from a good deal with the EU, which it is more likely to get in a union with the UK than out of it. 

When you look at the facts, there is no logical argument for an Independent Scotland, beyond emotional calls for 'self-determination' and 'we are fed up of Westminister'. (like, by the way, so many regions are). 

An Independent Scotland = borders, borders, borders... the one thing those pro it are so against. 

[Neroneau 1,017]

What’s the point of referendums anymore and if you can just organise more and more until you have the result you want smh 

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

1 minute ago, OMonster said:

I see Scottish independence as a very emotional and hot-headed debate - it's a 'culture war' whipped up by media frenzy and bi-partisanship; it's not rooted in much more than an 'us vs. them' mentality, which (imo) isn't sensible and avoids the deep-rooted problems in the UK and Scotland.  

As the polls confirm: the main argument for Scottish Independence comes down to right-wing politics... but Scotland shares that as a common 'enemy' with vast regions of the rest of the UK, including (ironically) London and (more obviously) Yorkshire. With more devolution to Scotland, and perhaps a more strategic UNION between anti-tory regions, I believe Scotland could continue to prosper *and* bring about more change for the rest of the UK. 

It could be argued, for example, that the SNP is one of the main reasons Scotland (and the UK) is - ultimately - ruled by a Tory government. It's also the reason why Scotland is leaving the EU. 

Why?

Because had the SNP built a pact with, say, Scottish Labour to not contest Scottish seats in the GENERAL ELECTION (not Scottish elections) - then, the UK (collectively) would not be where it is today. Labour would've been in power, most likely, since 2015 under Ed Miliband, Brexit would not have happened, and the rise in Scottish (and English) populism would not have been. 

This is just one example of why the Union could equal the ideals Scotland wants of left-wing politics, more devolution, and a close relationship with the EU. 

And the reason, imo, why independence isn't the right means to reach those ends is that it is wholly utopic in that it is an argument that - now, in 2020 - is entirely removed from the facts. 

Why?

Because Brexit happened. 

We can't undo Brexit - it's done. 

And its impact on Scottish Independence is so huge that it renders it counterproductive. 

There are two outcomes to Scottish Independence, post-Brexit:

1) Scotland is independent, and has a border between itself and the EU. There is no border between Scotland and the UK because they share the same customs union, since they are BOTH outside of the EU in this scenario. This would, therefore, require Scotland to be an independent nation OUTSIDE of the EU... despite membership being one of the driving forces for independence. 

2) Scotland is independent, and has a border between itself and the UK. This is because it has been granted membership of the EU and is therefore in a DIFFERENT customs union to the UK, which - as we know - will require a border, since the EU requires its territory to be defined by borders on the basis of trade regulations. 

The first option isn't particularly attractive for Scotland, since it requires the country to function - essentially - as a vessel state of the UK. It'll have even less say than it currently does in the Union (since it'll be out of it) but, equally, won't be a member of the EU. 

The second option would see Scotland even *more* removed from the benefits of the Union, since there will be a border between it and the rest of the UK, which will impact trade. 

Why does this matter? 

Because Scotland exports more THREE TIMES to the UK than it does to the EU... despite already having a lot of control over who it exports to. 

So... some points to end on:

1) Scottish Independence means a Scotland that has a border to its closest allies, in either scenario. And while it is true that a 'dependent' Scotland would have to face a border to the EU if it remained in the UK - this would be significantly less harmful to the country than a border with the UK would be. 

2) An independent Scotland out of the EU would be completely counterproductive, as A) it would have less say in the UK, and no say over EU relations, and B) when the UK eventually forms a deal with the EU, Scotland would not be part of it. 

3) If Scotland stayed with the UK, left the EU and worked strategically with its UK allies (such as Scottish Labour), then Scotland could A) remain tied to its closest ally, B) bring about more devolution, C) bring down Tory governments, and D) benefit from a good deal with the EU, which it is more likely to get in a union with the UK than out of it. 

When you look at the facts, there is no logical argument for an Independent Scotland, beyond emotional calls for 'self-determination' and 'we are fed up of Westminister'. (like, by the way, so many regions are). 

An Independent Scotland = borders, borders, borders... the one thing those pro it are so against. 

Okay but the thing is that Scotland IS a recognised country. Its not a region or county of England. So therefore, the argument is slightly different to those in the North of England. The only way the UK union would work for Scotland is if the UK union was set up like the European Union. Its nothing to do with devolution because some powers would still reside in England. Why should a country tell another country how to live or how much money it can have? It shouldn't. The UK union was set up to benefit England and England alone. It doesn't benefit Scotland at all. 

We don't have to have a hard border with England. If we go back into the EU as an Independent country, all we would need is custom checks. But to suggest a fenced border would be absurd. 

To cut a long story short, there are many many reasons and facts why an Independent Scotland would be beneficial to us. And its not just a "hot headed argument" or just want a break from Westminster. I'll list them:

- future pandemic planning. Boris Johnson and the UK government really fcked up with Covid 19. They were unprepared for a large scale pandemic, then spent millions on shabby PPE. Because of this, it had a knock on effect to Scotland. Scotland didn't have enough PPE because the UK Government directed the PPE to England. Thats unfair. 

- fiscal powers. Scotland doesn’t have any fiscal powers as its all directed by England. Would you enjoy living in a country where the neighbouring country takes all your money and dictates how much you can spend? No absolutely not. Especially during covid 19, we should be able to borrow money when we need it and spend it how we like. But we can't. 

- Governments. In every General Election for the past 60+years, Scotland has always voted for one thing and got what England gets. Its ALWAYS what England gets. Scotland hasn't voted for the UK Government's that it has had for 60+ years, and thus, our voice has never mattered. Even in the Brexit referendum, we voted overwhelmingly to remain yet England voted to leave and whats happened? We're being taken out the EU against our will. If it was a fair union, Scotland would still be part of the EU. Oh and btw, they promised Scotland that after 2014, there would be more devolution and more power... which never came. 

- our views doesn’t suit the UK/England. We've always been more left and England has always been more right. The UK has never been united. 

 

If Scotland stayed with the UK, we risk thousands of Scottish jobs due to Brexit. We'd be financially worse off staying with the UK. We'd never get the government we vote for. We risk our own parliament being taken away from us because of the right wing Conservative government in charge. We risk our NHS being sold off. 

Enough is enough. Scotland has been patient and has waited for more powers, and for Labour to take charge in England while remaining to their left politics. We've waited. 

It just isn't logical for Scotland to stay part of the UK. There isn't one good cause for the UK union, and many people are starting to see things for what they are. Scotland can lead Europe, but we are being held back by England. We can still remain great allies when we gain independence, but we don't have to be in a political union with England that favours England over anyone else. 

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

10 minutes ago, Neroneau said:

What’s the point of referendums anymore and if you can just organise more and more until you have the result you want smh 

Because of democracy 

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

What argument is there for staying within the UK? If the only argument is borders, we can sort that out. We don't need to have a hard border, all we need to just some custom checks. But I'm sure there will be something set up to allow people to move freely between Scotland and England. But that all depends on how England proceeds because freedom of movement is at the heart of the SNP's message. 

But literally, the border issue is the reason why Northen Ireland is moving towards reunification with Ireland. And people in Wales are also starting to see what the UK really is. Independence isn't just done with Scotland, but its also within the other nations that make up the UK. Its the path that we are destined to take. A 300+ political Union is coming to an end.