14th poll shows support for Scottish Independence

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

3 minutes ago, LoliLux said:

I believe they can. People are allowed to change their minds as often as Gaga changes her clothes. 

The supporters/defenders of Scottish Independence (ScIn) said back then in 2013 and 2014 clearly, that the most important reason for voting fot ScIn is that Scots will have their destiny in their own hands, regardless of what England wants. By NOT voting for ScIn, they give AWAY their destiny. By not voting for ScIn, they agreed to the majority-rule of England (!). Of course, England will always vote in its own interests. That should have always been clear.

They trusted England, although they have been warned. The majority of Scots did not listen to the arguments of the supportes and defenders. The result that we have right now (Scotland as part of the UK), is the rightful "punishment" for Scotland because they ignored the warning of the supportes of ScIn.

England is in no way obliged to please Scotland.

You have a strong argument. I won't argue against it. It is true that rejecting it, is undemocratic. But we don't know how Scots will think in 5 years. If you will have a referendum in 2021, then there will have to be a referendum in 2028 again for the pro-UK people.

I was devastated, too. If people listenend to the supporters of ScIn, they would have known that Londons promises are nothing but empty lies. You are never going to get these powers. The UK will always be centralist, never like Switzerland. The quote in bold was clear though.

By not voting for ScIn, Scots voted for English-majority ruled. Scots allowed in 2014 themselves to be ruled by England. They voted for England's rule and they...finally got England's rule.

I also think, that it's better for Scotlond to be an independent nation. But I am against a second referendum...this is only opening the door for a neverending referendum

Simply put: what country has left the UK and asked to join back in? It is very unlikely that once we leave the UK, the will of the Scottish people will change to pro-UK after 5 years. Especially with the catastrophe of a storm thats coming, which is Brexit. If in 5 years Scotland is independent, thriving, and a member of the European Union, people will look at England and see how different things are compared to Scotland. People are ALREADY seeing the differences between Scotland and England, which has been catapulted to the front because of the pandemic and seeing how each government handled things. 

I can't see a reason why people would want to go back to living under UK rule once we are independent and back in the EU.

[Ayesha Erotica 1,959]

15 minutes ago, xoxo Craig said:

Exactly. We aren't some tiny third world country. Its bugs me so much when people say "Scotland can't..." or "you'd be nowhere without the UK" when it was projected that Scotland would be one of the world's most richest countries a few years back. 

 

Of course, Scotland can do it! If Norway and Danmark can, Scotland can, too. And the richest countries in Europa are roughly the size of Scotland in population, so yes, you could likely be among the world's richest countries. However, way too many people believe London's propaganda...

25 minutes ago, xoxo Craig said:

 They know they can't afford to lose Scotland because if we leave the UK, they'll go bankrupt. They try claim that we have debt, but that's impossible because we don't have any borrowing powers in Scotland. So we don't actually have any debt. England and the UK will be financially worse off if Scotland leaves. The rumour that you heard is false. 

London cannot reject the will of the Scottish people. There are other means and ways of getting independence than a referendum. We don't have to ask England for one. Did India ask for permission? Did Ireland? Or any other country that has left the UK? No. So why should we? We don't.

The thing is, ScIn is going to benefit Scotland most, because London is rich AT THE EXPENSE OF the rest of the country, which means that England will be the loser, if Scotland leaves. If they told the truth, Scots would massively vote for ScIn - England doesn't want it. So they keep this fairytale of telling "Scotland can't do it", which Canada tells by the way Québec, too.

As you said, England is gonna be the loser.

Right now,  Germany is #1 in Europe and both the UK and France share the #2 spot.

If Scotland leaves the UK, the UK will fall below France in population and economic influence and become the #3. The gap between the UK without Scotland and Germany would become bigger, which would put Germany at a greater power in Europe. Also, if Scotland leaves the UK, it will become less likely for the UK to join back the EU. Why? Because it's voting power will be significantly below France and Germany. They will not be able to influence things as much in the EU as they did in the past.

Also, currently, the US of course is the biggest English-speaking nation #1 and the UK is #2. If Scotland leaves the UK, the gap will become bigger. The UK will be more in the league of Canada and Australia, and less a "second strong one".

The US adds each decade like dozens of milliions of new inhabitants and the gap between the US and UK is getting bigger and bigger. ScIn is going to have a severe impact on the English-speaking world. It will make Great Britain less great.

And I think this is the reason why London won't allow a new referendum in favor of ScIn.

If you declare your independence, the same thing is going to happen like in Spain/Catalonia. You will declare your independence, but other European countries are not going to recognize it and then the British military will come to show Scotland that it's just a region like Spain did.

That being said, I'm not saying you shouldn't try it. If you never try, you will never have independence. However, I'm just saying what is most likely gonna happen: London's gonna deny ScIn. And it's gonna be SUCCESSFUL just like Madrid was

 

[melon 3,669]

Go for it Scotland, I think it’ll be sad seeing the UK crumble, I don’t see myself as English but British... but the numpties in charge now are complete idiots controlled by a few crusty old men.

I do think that if a dynamic Labour leader came to power in 2024 the public opinion would swing back the other way as the fundamental issue is the Tories in charge right now. I mean a majority of England despises them but we can’t leave if we wanted to  

So I guess you do you Scotland and leave the left wingers like me stuck with 50+ seats less in Parliament meaning we will never have a progressive government again.

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

2 minutes ago, LoliLux said:

Of course, Scotland can do it! If Norway and Danmark can, Scotland can, too. And the richest countries in Europa are roughly the size of Scotland in population, so yes, you could likely be among the world's richest countries. However, way too many people believe London's propaganda...

The thing is, ScIn is going to benefit Scotland most, because London is rich AT THE EXPENSE OF the rest of the country, which means that England will be the loser, if Scotland leaves. If they told the truth, Scots would massively vote for ScIn - England doesn't want it. So they keep this fairytale of telling "Scotland can't do it", which Canada tells by the way Québec, too.

As you said, England is gonna be the loser.

Right now,  Germany is #1 in Europe and both the UK and France share the #2 spot.

If Scotland leaves the UK, the UK will fall below France in population and economic influence and become the #3. The gap between the UK without Scotland and Germany would become bigger, which would put Germany at a greater power in Europe. Also, if Scotland leaves the UK, it will become less likely for the UK to join back the EU. Why? Because it's voting power will be significantly below France and Germany. They will not be able to influence things as much in the EU as they did in the past.

Also, currently, the US of course is the biggest English-speaking nation #1 and the UK is #2. If Scotland leaves the UK, the gap will become bigger. The UK will be more in the league of Canada and Australia, and less a "second strong one".

The US adds each decade like dozens of milliions of new inhabitants and the gap between the US and UK is getting bigger and bigger. ScIn is going to have a severe impact on the English-speaking world. It will make Great Britain less great.

And I think this is the reason why London won't allow a new referendum in favor of ScIn.

If you declare your independence, the same thing is going to happen like in Spain/Catalonia. You will declare your independence, but other European countries are not going to recognize it and then the British military will come to show Scotland that it's just a region like Spain did.

That being said, I'm not saying you shouldn't try it. If you never try, you will never have independence. However, I'm just saying what is most likely gonna happen: London's gonna deny ScIn. And it's gonna be SUCCESSFUL just like Madrid was

 

I mean, if the current projections are around 60% for the SNP/Independence then that would mean a majority of people have rejected London's propaganda. People are beginning to wake up and reject the nonsense coming out of Westminster. Its not working anymore. 

Okay, but with the way things are going in England, it is highly unlikely that they would want to join the EU again. Especially after Nigel Farage's performance in the European Parliament, it's no wonder other EU members would have something against England/UK. However, that is not the case for Scotland. Many EU leaders have said they would welcome an independent Scotland in the EU, and it wouldn't be that long of a process due to us already being members under the UK, while sending our own representatives to the EU Parliament. Nicola Sturgeon has already established many connections with EU leaders, so the process of Scotland rejoining the EU should not be a long or tough one. We'd declare Independence and it would be recognised by EU leaders. 

[Ayesha Erotica 1,959]

25 minutes ago, xoxo Craig said:

Simply put: what country has left the UK and asked to join back in? It is very unlikely that once we leave the UK, the will of the Scottish people will change to pro-UK after 5 years.

I don't think either than a long-term independent Scotland is gonna come back knocking on London's door. Actually, I think no country has ever wanted to come back to the UK. And it's no surprise why, seeing how poorly they were treaten by London

This is also why I think the 2014 opportunity was so special. It is a VERY RARE opportunity in human history to get a referendum on independence. Scotland could have voted for it, and continue to be in the EU. By not voting for it, it allowed England to make all decisions. Theoretically, England could join an union with Brazil and there's nothing Scotland can do about it.

Considering that the UK has a veto right in the UN Security Council, it will face sharp criticism from other countries because it will be unusual for a country with a relatively low population (after Scotland will leave) compared to India or Indonesia to have this priviledge. London will try to avoid these ciriticism by not allowing Scin

 

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

2 minutes ago, melon said:

Go for it Scotland, I think it’ll be sad seeing the UK crumble, I don’t see myself as English but British... but the numpties in charge now are complete idiots controlled by a few crusty old men.

I do think that if a dynamic Labour leader came to power in 2024 the public opinion would swing back the other way as the fundamental issue is the Tories in charge right now. I mean a majority of England despises them but we can’t leave if we wanted to  

So I guess you do you Scotland and leave the left wingers like me stuck with 50+ seats less in Parliament meaning we will never have a progressive government again.

I really feel sorry for people like you who clearly also reject Boris and the muppet show that make up the UK government. If Labour want to get votes in Scotland, they actually need to become a pro-independence party. The SNP is made up of ex-Labour votes, as well as people who always vote SNP and Greens. Their last manifesto had policies which were already implemented by the SNP in Scotland, so it was a waste of time to promote that here. They need to get in power in England and maintain their left wing policies rather than try appeal to Tory voters. 

But here’s the thing. Scotland voted to remain in the EU and England didn't. So how do they maintain that they are for the people when they can't do anything for us. Its like standing on a plank of wood that is splitting down the middle. The ship for the UK union has sunk and is nearing the bottom of the ocean. 

But I truly wish you all the best because I know people like you will not put up with Boris Johnson and his right wing politics forever.

[Ayesha Erotica 1,959]

13 minutes ago, xoxo Craig said:

 We'd declare Independence and it would be recognised by EU leaders. 

Well, in 2014 you would have been certainly recognised because Merkel said the EU is (except for Spain) going to recognise ScIn because it is legal and legitimate because you had London's official permission. Catalonia did not have Spain's official permission, this is why Merkel opposed Catalonia's recognition. You can only legitimately join the EU with London's permission. Merkel will make no exceptions and the rest of the EU will follow her

I just had one important thought:

If California left the US, it would be hard for Joe Biden to win because the US would turn more Republican without California.

Is it solidary for Scotland to leave the UK? If Scotland leaves, the rest of the UK while become more right-wing. If it leaves, chances are going to diminish that the left will come to power again in the UK. Scotland's withdrawal somehow will make England even more right wing.

 

[Better Day 5,766]

18 minutes ago, melon said:

Go for it Scotland, I think it’ll be sad seeing the UK crumble, I don’t see myself as English but British... but the numpties in charge now are complete idiots controlled by a few crusty old men.

I do think that if a dynamic Labour leader came to power in 2024 the public opinion would swing back the other way as the fundamental issue is the Tories in charge right now. I mean a majority of England despises them but we can’t leave if we wanted to  

So I guess you do you Scotland and leave the left wingers like me stuck with 50+ seats less in Parliament meaning we will never have a progressive government again.

Even if Labour came to power at the next election the independence supporters would never accept being part of the UK because power will always go back to the tories. The last point you made, unfortnatelty under the FTPT system it will always benefit the right-wing because England tend to be right-wing.

[Better Day 5,766]

8 minutes ago, LoliLux said:

Well, in 2014 you would have been certainly recognised because Merkel said the EU is (except for Spain) going to recognise ScIn because it is legal and legitimate because you had London's official permission. Catalonia did not have Spain's official permission, this is why Merkel opposed Catalonia's recognition. You can only legitimately join the EU with London's permission. Merkel will make no exceptions and the rest of the EU will follow her

I just had one important thought:

If California left the US, it would be hard for Joe Biden to win because the US would turn more Republican without California.

Is it solidary for Scotland to leave the UK? If Scotland leaves, the rest of the UK while become more right-wing. If it leaves, chances are going to diminish that the left will come to power again in the UK. Scotland's withdrawal somehow will make England even more right wing.

 

I don't know the whole story of Catalonia, the difference is Catalonia is an area of Spain whereas Scotland is part of a union. Essentially, we don't need permission to leave the union because it is part of a marriage. It is in courts the now to see if Scotland needs permission to hold a referendum: https://www.thenational.scot/news/18847369.indyref2-judge-gives-green-light-landmark-section-30-court-case/

With the Angela Merkel point you made, she is resigning next year so her point of view will be irrelevant.

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

1 hour ago, LoliLux said:

Well, in 2014 you would have been certainly recognised because Merkel said the EU is (except for Spain) going to recognise ScIn because it is legal and legitimate because you had London's official permission. Catalonia did not have Spain's official permission, this is why Merkel opposed Catalonia's recognition. You can only legitimately join the EU with London's permission. Merkel will make no exceptions and the rest of the EU will follow her

I just had one important thought:

If California left the US, it would be hard for Joe Biden to win because the US would turn more Republican without California.

Is it solidary for Scotland to leave the UK? If Scotland leaves, the rest of the UK while become more right-wing. If it leaves, chances are going to diminish that the left will come to power again in the UK. Scotland's withdrawal somehow will make England even more right wing.

 

But the difference is that California is a state. Scotland is a country. Its not a region or a state, its a recognised country thats in a political union with England that formed the UK. England has already become really right wing after 2016. Why should a country stay in a union with another country thats increasingly going in the opposite direction? It doesn't make sense. If England wants to go down one path, then they should be able to do that and fulfil the will of the English people. But so should Scotland, so if we voted to remain as part of the EU, we should be able to go down that path. The UK has been divided for a long time now. The EU referendum and the things that have happened since 2016 have only been the catalyst. Its not just Scotland, Wales is showing more support to become independent and N.Irleand showing an increase in support for United Irleand. 

 

And your point about the EU isn't accurate. The way that the EU parliament works is that an idea is put forward and every nation in the EU has to agree in order to get it through. So if country x wanted to become part of the EU, all 27 members have to agree to welcome it. With the UK out of the EU, its unlikely that the EU would reject Scotland.

[Gagaism 12,487]

3 hours ago, Nemo said:

Yeah but it looks cool

Out of politic matters, I think the British flag is the most beautiful out of all 

[Lemonky 671]

That's what you get when you leave EU 

[Lona Delery 7,227]

are we really gonna pretend as if 56% approval is enough to warrant independence tho 

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

2 minutes ago, Lona Delery said:

are we really gonna pretend as if 56% approval is enough to warrant independence tho 

Well if 52% was enough to warrant Brexit, then why not? Plus, these are just polls from a selected sample size. The actual percentage could be a lot higher. Especially since pro-independence parties are predicted to win at least 60% at next years election

[monster4life231 4,304]

I'm not commenting to become involved in the debate, but to say that those that have commented have done great because you've all had a sensible and reasonable debate without resorting to insults or sarcasm.