USA Presidential Debate 2020 (Biden x Trump)

[PartySick 172,464]

3 hours ago, Gagasclit said:

You are one of the dumbets cnts here and there is a lot of competition for that

Aww bless your heart

[Moderator 309]

5 hours ago, monster4life231 said:

@Moderator We've got a troll ^

They are gone lol 

[FATCAT 60,888]

7 hours ago, Ancient Alien said:

Econ 211 Macroeconomics: When minimum wage is raised, unemployment and hardships for people with lower income rise altogether. - Taught in every business school and class.

This is a very basic understanding of how the economy works but Biden failed to address it correctly, as a president candidate worries me  

This would be true if minimum wage kept up with the times, but it's been far too low for far too long. Businesses can afford it plenty, that's why some businesses already give more than the minimum wage (Walmart, $11) for example.

[homomo 23,883]

7 hours ago, Ancient Alien said:

Econ 211 Macroeconomics: When minimum wage is raised, unemployment and hardships for people with lower income rise altogether. - Taught in every business school and class.

This is a very basic understanding of how the economy works but Biden failed to address it correctly, as a president candidate worries me  

 

 

 

If this is even remotely correct (which it’s not, it’s just a ploy used my capitalists to keep themselves rich and and lower class poor), then explain this please:

source: Wage Stagnation in the USA - https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

[Ancient Alien 431]

Lols, you really think a raise in the minimum wage would solve the problem for low income families? That's a lazy thinking because if you smart and work hard enough, you would never ends up earning the minimum wage.

Lower minimum wage is the incentives to push people to work hard and better the society and for their own interest. In real life, do you set goal to achieve and better yourself or are you just trying to find a backbone so that you can earn the most with the laziest effort? That's the real greed and leeches of the society. 

And also stop vilify the rich and capitalist. Is that a crime that you're too smart, you work hard and you earn more money? They spend their time, assets, effort and take risks for their fortunes and they're not allowed to be rich? I have rarely heard of anybody who works hard and saves for their future to become poor. If you want to be rich and better your livelihood, work for it, spend wisely or at least task risk and become an entrepreneur yourself.

Now imagine yourself as a business owner, you really don't have an infinite amount of capital and resource to hire everybody. And it's also not the responsibility for a business to cover for the struggle of other people, it's the government's. Why is that a business' responsibility to employ all people who apply for the minimum wage jobs? They're a business not a charitable organization. So it means when you raise the minimum income, they have to adjust their capital resource and spending to pay for that. And do you think that money will magically appear as wished? No, they either have to apply for loans or to cut more jobs. Does it sounds reasonable that a business should apply for loans so that they can pay more for the poor and could potentially damage the business? They could do that but again, that sounds like the government and charitable organizations job.

If you're not happy with the minimum wage, why don't you go ahead and apply for a better paid one? Or at least train and equip yourself to be qualified for a better paid job? If anybody falls in to the minimum wage narrative, that sounds more like a you problem.

@homomo @FATCAT @HorusRa2
 

[pachinko 10,753]

On 10/23/2020 at 10:43 AM, Ancient Alien said:

Econ 211 Macroeconomics: When minimum wage is raised, unemployment and hardships for people with lower income rise altogether. - Taught in every business school and class.

This is a very basic understanding of how the economy works but Biden failed to address it correctly, as a president candidate worries me  

 

 

 

Then how do you propose we fix the economy? Is it broken?

[Ancient Alien 431]

On 10/23/2020 at 5:51 PM, FATCAT said:

This would be true if minimum wage kept up with the times, but it's been far too low for far too long. Businesses can afford it plenty, that's why some businesses already give more than the minimum wage (Walmart, $11) for example.

In fact, the government could get rid of price floor (aka minimum wage) if its purpose is only to help the poor people because minimum wage actually does not help.

It's total your choice and freedom to apply for a job. If you think the job is underpaid, you could quit, and if everybody in the same situation think so, they could also quit. Thus, if a business really wants labour for a specific job, they would adjust their wage policy to attract more employee. Walmart do $11 minimum wage because they know nobody would apply to their company if it were a lower wage. This shows the examples that the minimum wage could be diminished and the market will cope with it just fine. Law of supply and demand. If you want to attract more employee to your company, raise the minimum wage yourself. 

And also from your Walmart example. They raised their minimum wage because they have carefully calculated the gains, their financial status and their own strategy. They do it voluntarily and individually. I hope you know that's Walmart is the biggest store chain in the U.S and their finance is one of the strongest. If the government issue a mandatory raise in minimum wage, yes, Walmart could potentially doing okay, but 99.7% - Ninety Nine Percent of the U.S's businesses are small businesses with varied financial situation and strategies, will they be just fine as Walmart? 

Take public schools' work-study jobs as an example. Most of the jobs is paid at minimum wage. A student doesn't have to apply for that job, they could apply for Walmart, Wendy,...instead. But if they apply for the school job, they must before hand be wise to figure out the worth of their time and efforts. The school, under a minimum wage raise, can cut out that job or transform it to an unpaid job so now instead of getting something, you now get nothing.

I know for most people, a raise in minimum wage sounds good and sounds like a right thing to do, but you have to take in account every related factors before you can judge it to be realistic and reasonable or not. 

[Ancient Alien 431]

23 minutes ago, pachinko said:

Then how do you propose we fix the economy? Is it broken?

It's not my ability and responsibility to propose a fix for the economy. That's a big job that I believe the governments and businesses have dedicated departments for that. I do believe that my best way to help the economy, as an individual is to work hard and maybe sometimes in the future, take risk and open my own business. I also believe in specialization so that why we should mind our own business and let the people with real experience and thorough knowledge about the issue do their job. Try not to just a problem base solely on what you feel but rather what you really know. 

And per say, the points and explanation that VP Biden raised regarding the minimum wage is unsatisfying and go against what every business school in this country has been teaching now.

The United States, with the same foundation and belief about bout minimum wage and business is ranked number 1 in Economy as of this moment (almost doubles that of China as the 2nd.) https://worldinfigures.com/rankings/topic/8

So, I don't see that the economy of the U.S is broken and it worries me that VP Biden and some users here want to change the policies that is yet to be validated and taught in real life. Don't try to fix what's not broken. 

 

 

[HorusRa2 5,005]

5 hours ago, Ancient Alien said:

Lols, you really think a raise in the minimum wage would solve the problem for low income families? That's a lazy thinking because if you smart and work hard enough, you would never ends up earning the minimum wage.

Lower minimum wage is the incentives to push people to work hard and better the society and for their own interest. In real life, do you set goal to achieve and better yourself or are you just trying to find a backbone so that you can earn the most with the laziest effort? That's the real greed and leeches of the society. 

And also stop vilify the rich and capitalist. Is that a crime that you're too smart, you work hard and you earn more money? They spend their time, assets, effort and take risks for their fortunes and they're not allowed to be rich? I have rarely heard of anybody who works hard and saves for their future to become poor. If you want to be rich and better your livelihood, work for it, spend wisely or at least task risk and become an entrepreneur yourself.

Now imagine yourself as a business owner, you really don't have an infinite amount of capital and resource to hire everybody. And it's also not the responsibility for a business to cover for the struggle of other people, it's the government's. Why is that a business' responsibility to employ all people who apply for the minimum wage jobs? They're a business not a charitable organization. So it means when you raise the minimum income, they have to adjust their capital resource and spending to pay for that. And do you think that money will magically appear as wished? No, they either have to apply for loans or to cut more jobs. Does it sounds reasonable that a business should apply for loans so that they can pay more for the poor and could potentially damage the business? They could do that but again, that sounds like the government and charitable organizations job.

If you're not happy with the minimum wage, why don't you go ahead and apply for a better paid one? Or at least train and equip yourself to be qualified for a better paid job? If anybody falls in to the minimum wage narrative, that sounds more like a you problem.

@homomo @FATCAT @HorusRa2
 

I dont work a minimum wage job. 

I do vilify the rich. At some point of wealth, you are no longer being rewarded for your talent and are exploiting others and benefiting from a system that is set up to only benefit the wealthy. 

I think your comment is morally bankrupt and if that is what you believe then I would say youre a disgusting person. Period. 

[Ancient Alien 431]

12 minutes ago, HorusRa2 said:

I dont work a minimum wage job. 

I do vilify the rich. At some point of wealth, you are no longer being rewarded for your talent and are exploiting others and benefiting from a system that is set up to only benefit the wealthy. 

I think your comment is morally bankrupt and if that is what you believe then I would say youre a disgusting person. Period. 

Well thank for your opinion but from what you're saying you just show that you're economic illiterate and ungrateful person that got easily irritated when you face a different opinion. I hope I was wrong. And the audacity of you to call me morally bankrupt when I urge people to work hard to overcome their difficulties is such a disgrace.

Unless you really know what you're talking about, don't try to come after me. Do you know that your way of thinking and "moral" could end up hurting the poor badly, take away their job and burden up their life? Since when does speaking up the truth and facts that has been studied, applied and validated in real life is regarded as morally bankrupt when the problematic ideas that could potentially destroy people's livelihoods is viewed as the "right" thing to say?

You know what is truly morally bankrupt? That's when you do know about those things and study but still trying to putting up an agenda to go ahead with it and use emotion and public appeal to legitimize it. That's corruption fyi. And do you know who benefit from that? It's not the poor nor the rich, it's the government.

 

 

 

 

[Ancient Alien 431]

On 10/23/2020 at 6:42 PM, homomo said:

If this is even remotely correct (which it’s not, it’s just a ploy used my capitalists to keep themselves rich and and lower class poor), then explain this please:

source: Wage Stagnation in the USA - https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

Again, please be clear about the difference between minimum wages and normal wages. Do you really understand what those chart means? This is a projection of what the wage should be like IF minimum wage and productivity were connected. But please be mindful that minimum wage and productivity are NOT connected together. Only your real, normal wages will be base upon your productivity and market price.

Minimum wage, in fact work as incentives from the government to help change the outcome of market. Minimum wage is a very sensitive issue that cannot be changed just by the brief outlook of the current market. Because there are many jobs that can only be available on the minimum wage which as I mentioned above in my own experience : work-study jobs. 

Minimum wage cannot be set based solely on what the employee should get but it have to be set based on what the business owner can offer. Because if the business can't offer a job at higher rate, they may as well dismiss it of hire less people thus cause trouble for the employee. And also be mindful that 99.7% of businesses in the U.S is small businesses. They do not have the same financial capability as the conglomerates such as Apple, Google, Walmart, Wendys, McDonald. So by raising the minimum wage, only people who work in 0.3% of the businesses in the U.S will surely get the benefit. Those from the 99.7% left are not so sure. It's 99.7%, it's not even half, it's almost all!

And through history and studies, whenever the minimum wage is raised there's reportedly loss of jobs as a result. So it's a bold statement to make when you promise to raise the minimum wage to $15, which is 2x the minimum wage right now, because jobs will be lost and to be specific, jobs for the low income people will be lost. VP Biden in the debate said that he will help "bailout" small businesses by raising minimum wage. How can you help small businesses when you make them to pay more money? Like saying oh, I know you're a poor student so I will help you by raising your internet and phone bill? If you can't see the logic in this, I don't know what else to say.

And a rise in minimum wage will result in a rise in price of goods and services, will this benefit low income people? Double the minimum wage as VP Biden suggested would also mean double the tax that will go to the government and who pay it? The workers and employers surprisingly.

 

[Batwings 12,957]

@Economy 

YOU'RE NEEDED IN THIS THREAD! 

[Economy 52,842]

On 10/23/2020 at 6:42 PM, homomo said:

If this is even remotely correct (which it’s not, it’s just a ploy used my capitalists to keep themselves rich and and lower class poor), then explain this please:

source: Wage Stagnation in the USA - https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

I've posted simmilar graphs before and it's true minimum wage is not keeping up with economic growth in a proportional basis

 

Although I wanna point out these graphs are general across the board productivity in economy. I doubt productivity of typical minimum wage jobs like someone working in a cash register, a waitress or a janitor has increased to the same degree as ppl who work in factories or information  dealing with much better technology but even so it should of gone up something

 

I also believe this "economics 211" @Ancient Alien theory that lower minimum wage meant more jobs is also outdated. It may have worked a little better in 1950 when the economy worked in a way that trickle down economics actually had some effect but in 2020 and in last few decades a lot has changed and I don't think it works that way anymore

 

Our economy more than ever is based on tertiary sector (often minimum wage paying or close to it) and people can't consume these goods and services if they are broke to begin with. Also in the modern highly technical economy the bigger issue holding back economy is things like skills mismatch where people aren't qualified to accept good job opportunities out there. This hurts workers but it also hurts companies who can't always hire as much skilled labor as they need and it also creates cost inflation for workers such as technician's, software programmers, engineers etc which already get much bigger raises than the general population

 

Corporations and companies in general are held back on potential growth potential from lack of skilled labor and lack of demand from consumers who make too little and they end up spending a lot of their profits in share buy backs instead of expansion and creating jobs

 

The issue in 2020 isn't that companies don't have enough profits and that's why Trump's attempt at things like Corporate tax cuts wasn't yielding much results. Most already had enough money to expand if the demand and labor was there

 

In 2020 to fix the real issues u need to make education more accessible to ppl and even if that means higher taxes on the wealthy (within reason) that will benefit everyone in the long term even the companies

 

In 1950 where there was more job mobility, the ability to take whatever because fewer jobs required education it may have been as simple as lower taxes, more profits meant more expansion and more competition and thus more wage growth and economic growth. In 2020 I think the economy no longer works in such a simple manner that allows that model to work anymore

 

Most capitalists and right wingers are still using economic theory from 50-70 years ago and the world has changed so much since then and I think there lies the problem with their thinking. It's not that the theory is stupid or that it was dumb, it's that some aspects of it are outdated and no longer work as effectively when u take into account some of today's changes

 

 

However there's a limit too you still need to compete Internationally and have the funds so I'm not saying I support some really high taxes like Bernie or AOC proposed.

 

On minimum wage I also think some propositions like national $15/h are a little too high especially in States or small towns that don't have the economic output or cost of living to handle a minimum wage that high. That's also why I'm against National minimum wages for large countries. The ideal minimum wage will vary a lot from region to region. $15/h in Manhattan or LA is not the same as some small town in Kansas. But $7/h to $8/h is rediculous even in the cheapest parts of the country

[PartySick 172,464]

It's an election year and I'm getting beat over the head with the sad/lmao stick from @OG Gaga Stan

Good times