Trump Leading Among Likely Voters in FL and AZ: ABC/WaPo polls

[Ziggy 14,040]

9 hours ago, HorusRa2 said:

There are arguments that Trump can make on Trade. Trump can push Biden on Iraq. Trump can push Biden on cutting social security (yes, im aware he's basically said he wants to cut them too but fact is Biden has spent his career trying to do the same). There are valid arguments that Trump can make but he's stuck on the socialism. 

he can make these sorts of attacks but the problem is that Trump doesn’t know how to talk about these things lol he never attacks on policy, he attacks on headlines. So if he tries to do this Biden will out-class him. Also, frankly, these arguments are small freakin potatoes when 200,000 people are dead on the incumbent’s watch, the economy is in the gutter, he stokes the fans of racial violence, his tax cuts didn’t help the middle class and poor, and the country is on fire still. *that* is the problem. Biden’s weaknesses are “boring” policy things, Trump’s weaknesses are big, flashy and inescapably in your face. So deflection to something like trade wont be easy. Debates are not about policy, they’re about performance and Trump is coming into this on the defense but will treat it like the offense as he always does because he doesn’t know how to do defense. That’ll be his problem.

[HorusRa2 5,005]

14 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

he can make these sorts of attacks but the problem is that Trump doesn’t know how to talk about these things lol he never attacks on policy, he attacks on headlines. So if he tries to do this Biden will out-class him. Also, frankly, these arguments are small freakin potatoes when 200,000 people are dead on the incumbent’s watch, the economy is in the gutter, he stokes the fans of racial violence, his tax cuts didn’t help the middle class and poor, and the country is on fire still. *that* is the problem. Biden’s weaknesses are “boring” policy things, Trump’s weaknesses are big, flashy and inescapably in your face. So deflection to something like trade wont be easy. Debates are not about policy, they’re about performance and Trump is coming into this on the defense but will treat it like the offense as he always does because he doesn’t know how to do defense. That’ll be his problem.

Rewatcg 2016 debates. There was policy in his debates. 

Again, not my way of measuring the economy but Trumps economy on the toplines were better than Obama/Biden so focusing on the economy is not a Biden winner make. 

As for thr corona virus, Biden was absent from the political conversation as the pandemic started and has offered very little vision on what hed do differently or better. 

Again, tax cuts. Biden sided with credit card companies as a senator and bailed out huge corporations in the obama administration and let people lose their homes. And ask the midwest how they feel about the NAFTA vote that shifted their jobs overseas. So, I get it. You hate trump but the fact is there are ways he can attack Biden. He did the same attacks on Hillary in 2016 plus the crooked Hillary stuff. It worked then and could now if he wanted to. 

[Ziggy 14,040]

1 hour ago, HorusRa2 said:

Rewatcg 2016 debates. There was policy in his debates. 

Again, not my way of measuring the economy but Trumps economy on the toplines were better than Obama/Biden so focusing on the economy is not a Biden winner make. 

As for thr corona virus, Biden was absent from the political conversation as the pandemic started and has offered very little vision on what hed do differently or better. 

Again, tax cuts. Biden sided with credit card companies as a senator and bailed out huge corporations in the obama administration and let people lose their homes. And ask the midwest how they feel about the NAFTA vote that shifted their jobs overseas. So, I get it. You hate trump but the fact is there are ways he can attack Biden. He did the same attacks on Hillary in 2016 plus the crooked Hillary stuff. It worked then and could now if he wanted to. 

Well, random little shade from you aside, I’m saying that debates aren’t about policy. They’re about image and performance. 2016 and 2020 are *very* different eras. Trump isn’t the underdog anymore, he’s the incumbent. I dislike Trump, of course. It’s not worth discussing this otherwise because where people are coming from is just too far off. But what I’m saying is that Trump is an incredibly vulnerable incumbent. He fares better when he is in control of the narrative and when he is able to be the attack dog. But as incumbent he can’t be doing that, he has to defend his record which, frankly, he doesn’t do very well. Again, I’m not speaking to anything about the reality of his record, I’m speaking to his ability to talk about it and convince undecideds of the quality of his record which he does not do well.

He is good at attacking, not defending. He has to do both, but I’m saying his weakness is not that he *can’t* attack Biden, which he can, but that as incumbent he has to pull double duty and defend his administration which he does a very poor job at doing. Literally every time he talks about it he puts his foot in his mouth. His base loves it, but he needs more than his base to win. He can attack Biden all he wants, but if he doesn’t learn how to defend his own record (which is up in flames rn), he won’t fare well in the debates.

Comparing Biden to Clinton is silly because they’re just too different. Biden has much less toxic baggage than she does and no sexism. He has baggage, but it’s not singularly lethal like Hillary’s. Biden is also more of a fighter and a man. Owing to America’s rampant sexism, that’s a plus for him.

So I’m not regarding your mention of policy because it isn’t important to debates, fundamentally, which are all about political theater. I’m no big fan of Biden and I share many of those critiques with him that other leftists have. But I’m not speaking from a place of my policy opinions I’m speaking about the strengths and weaknesses of candidates as they pertain to debates which are about performance and ability to perform. Biden will fumble words, I’m sure. He’ll yell, I’m sure. Neither are great and could hurt him. Trump has to do something he is particularly bad at, though, and that’s defend himself. Need we be reminded of “no puppet, you're the puppet”? Or the Axios interview? Or the Fox News one with Chris Wallace? He is abysmal at defending his record without trying to buck the blame. So much so that it could very well monopolize the airwaves and make it so Biden doesn’t even have to defend the Obama-Biden record (which, frankly, he does only so-so).

[jimmytimestep 2,937]

Everytime I see these polls, I'm always like...who took this poll? I've never been polled.

[Whispering 18,865]

9 hours ago, PartySick said:

We're supposed to

It hasn't been posted in since Feb though

Ah, this should be moved into the main thread!

[Whispering 18,865]

3 hours ago, HorusRa2 said:

Rewatcg 2016 debates. There was policy in his debates. 

Again, not my way of measuring the economy but Trumps economy on the toplines were better than Obama/Biden so focusing on the economy is not a Biden winner make. 

As for thr corona virus, Biden was absent from the political conversation as the pandemic started and has offered very little vision on what hed do differently or better. 

Again, tax cuts. Biden sided with credit card companies as a senator and bailed out huge corporations in the obama administration and let people lose their homes. And ask the midwest how they feel about the NAFTA vote that shifted their jobs overseas. So, I get it. You hate trump but the fact is there are ways he can attack Biden. He did the same attacks on Hillary in 2016 plus the crooked Hillary stuff. It worked then and could now if he wanted to. 

I remember them, Trump was terrible at discussing policy. He can’t get into details because he doesn’t listen to details and he doesn’t read or even attempt to learn about policy.

Trump inherited a good economy and now it is in the dumps. He’s not acting responsibly concerning the pandemic, therefore the economy isn’t improving. Biden can point out that Trump is responsible for the situation the US is currently in. 

I’ve seen multiple policy speeches, interviews and town halls where Biden has explained what he will do differently with the pandemic. He and Kamala have both discussed the pandemic in detail and at length. Trump lied about the whole Pandemic at the first, in the middle of the worst of it an$ is still doing so. Biden can blame 200,000 deaths and countless long term disabled people on Trump.

People lost their homes because they bought homes they weren’t really ever qualified to purchase. They weren’t able to pay for their homes once those ARM loans came do. You can only help people in homes that they can’t afford for so long. Eventually, they have to lose their homes and try to buy a home they can actually afford long term. Trump actually redlined and discriminated and didn’t pay his taxes. Biden can throw that back at him...or the fact that he hasn’t passed rental and mortgage protection during a Pandemic.

Trump passed basically the same NAFTA agreement. Biden can throw that right back at him. Trump sucks at Trade agreements. 

 

[KatieJudasGaga4 67,907]

5 hours ago, pachinko said:

Who still supports Trump? 

Apparently those 3 users who gave a YASS reaction. So disappointing.

[Lion Heart 15,041]

Hopefully Kelly can carry Biden across the finish line in Arizona. I never thought Biden had a chance in Florida.

[HorusRa2 5,005]

9 hours ago, Whispering said:

I remember them, Trump was terrible at discussing policy. He can’t get into details because he doesn’t listen to details and he doesn’t read or even attempt to learn about policy.

Trump inherited a good economy and now it is in the dumps. He’s not acting responsibly concerning the pandemic, therefore the economy isn’t improving. Biden can point out that Trump is responsible for the situation the US is currently in. 

I’ve seen multiple policy speeches, interviews and town halls where Biden has explained what he will do differently with the pandemic. He and Kamala have both discussed the pandemic in detail and at length. Trump lied about the whole Pandemic at the first, in the middle of the worst of it an$ is still doing so. Biden can blame 200,000 deaths and countless long term disabled people on Trump.

People lost their homes because they bought homes they weren’t really ever qualified to purchase. They weren’t able to pay for their homes once those ARM loans came do. You can only help people in homes that they can’t afford for so long. Eventually, they have to lose their homes and try to buy a home they can actually afford long term. Trump actually redlined and discriminated and didn’t pay his taxes. Biden can throw that back at him...or the fact that he hasn’t passed rental and mortgage protection during a Pandemic.

Trump passed basically the same NAFTA agreement. Biden can throw that right back at him. Trump sucks at Trade agreements. 

 

I'm not saying Trump is great but to say he didn't talk policy whatsoever is just wrong. He attacked Hillary very effectively on trade in particular and he was right actually. Bill Clinton did sign NAFTA. It was a bad deal. It did ship thousands of jobs overseas and ruined vast areas of the midwest. Clinton wanted to do TPP which would have done the same. As for the USMCA and NAFTA, you are correct that they are basically the same but any policy expert will tell you that it's still better than NAFTA. Plus Biden already conceded that the USMCA is better than NAFTA so attacking Trump on trade isn't going to work when Biden's record is worse than Trumps. 

Never did I claim that Trump has told the truth about the pandemic but I've seen nothing substantive from the Biden camp about the effects of Coronavirus except for addressing the mask, PPE, cost of treatment, etc. Nothing on the economics and certainly nothing that's going to work. 

You are correct about people and their homes; however, the fact is that the banks let people take loans that they knew they couldn't pay and when everything fell apart the banks got bailed out and the people didn't. You can say the responsibility is on the homeowners who took out a bad loan but the fact remains that the government took care of the banks even though what they were doing was criminal. So spare me the speech about that. 

And actually you're wrong about rental and mortgage protection during a pandemic. Trump signed an executive order through the CDC that expanded the moratorium on evictions beyond government housing through the end of the year. I understand your opposition to Trump but you can't just deny him credit because you don't like him. And really, the real criticism is that Trumps order doesn't go far enough because even if people aren't being evicted the rents remain owed. That's the critique. Not saying he didn't pass anything because that's simply not true. 

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/personal-finance/trumps-eviction-moratorium-aims-to-protect-renters-but-evictions-continue/

 

[HorusRa2 5,005]

11 hours ago, Ziggy said:

Well, random little shade from you aside, I’m saying that debates aren’t about policy. They’re about image and performance. 2016 and 2020 are *very* different eras. Trump isn’t the underdog anymore, he’s the incumbent. I dislike Trump, of course. It’s not worth discussing this otherwise because where people are coming from is just too far off. But what I’m saying is that Trump is an incredibly vulnerable incumbent. He fares better when he is in control of the narrative and when he is able to be the attack dog. But as incumbent he can’t be doing that, he has to defend his record which, frankly, he doesn’t do very well. Again, I’m not speaking to anything about the reality of his record, I’m speaking to his ability to talk about it and convince undecideds of the quality of his record which he does not do well.

He is good at attacking, not defending. He has to do both, but I’m saying his weakness is not that he *can’t* attack Biden, which he can, but that as incumbent he has to pull double duty and defend his administration which he does a very poor job at doing. Literally every time he talks about it he puts his foot in his mouth. His base loves it, but he needs more than his base to win. He can attack Biden all he wants, but if he doesn’t learn how to defend his own record (which is up in flames rn), he won’t fare well in the debates.

Comparing Biden to Clinton is silly because they’re just too different. Biden has much less toxic baggage than she does and no sexism. He has baggage, but it’s not singularly lethal like Hillary’s. Biden is also more of a fighter and a man. Owing to America’s rampant sexism, that’s a plus for him.

So I’m not regarding your mention of policy because it isn’t important to debates, fundamentally, which are all about political theater. I’m no big fan of Biden and I share many of those critiques with him that other leftists have. But I’m not speaking from a place of my policy opinions I’m speaking about the strengths and weaknesses of candidates as they pertain to debates which are about performance and ability to perform. Biden will fumble words, I’m sure. He’ll yell, I’m sure. Neither are great and could hurt him. Trump has to do something he is particularly bad at, though, and that’s defend himself. Need we be reminded of “no puppet, you're the puppet”? Or the Axios interview? Or the Fox News one with Chris Wallace? He is abysmal at defending his record without trying to buck the blame. So much so that it could very well monopolize the airwaves and make it so Biden doesn’t even have to defend the Obama-Biden record (which, frankly, he does only so-so).

There was no shade in my comment. If you interpreted it as such, I apologize for that. However, while I understand what you're saying (and agree with a lot of it), I think you have to think about the debates as if you're just a normal American not interested in politics watching the debates. Not everyone knows the details of policies, the voting history, etc. The fact is that Trump has tools in the toolbox he can use to attack Biden on. Yes, a lot of them can be blunted because of his own record as president but they still exist. It would be Biden's responsibility to be able to deflect and depending on what Joe Biden shows up at the debates will determine if he can do that. 

We also have to take into consideration the moment we are living in. Biden has to go into the debate and attack Trump but he also has to give voters something to vote for. Doing #1 is fine but doesn't change anything and to the extent that the debates matter he has to accomplish #2 better than Trump. 

[Whispering 18,865]

5 hours ago, HorusRa2 said:

I'm not saying Trump is great but to say he didn't talk policy whatsoever is just wrong. He attacked Hillary very effectively on trade in particular and he was right actually. Bill Clinton did sign NAFTA. It was a bad deal. It did ship thousands of jobs overseas and ruined vast areas of the midwest. Clinton wanted to do TPP which would have done the same. As for the USMCA and NAFTA, you are correct that they are basically the same but any policy expert will tell you that it's still better than NAFTA. Plus Biden already conceded that the USMCA is better than NAFTA so attacking Trump on trade isn't going to work when Biden's record is worse than Trumps. 

Never did I claim that Trump has told the truth about the pandemic but I've seen nothing substantive from the Biden camp about the effects of Coronavirus except for addressing the mask, PPE, cost of treatment, etc. Nothing on the economics and certainly nothing that's going to work. 

You are correct about people and their homes; however, the fact is that the banks let people take loans that they knew they couldn't pay and when everything fell apart the banks got bailed out and the people didn't. You can say the responsibility is on the homeowners who took out a bad loan but the fact remains that the government took care of the banks even though what they were doing was criminal. So spare me the speech about that. 

And actually you're wrong about rental and mortgage protection during a pandemic. Trump signed an executive order through the CDC that expanded the moratorium on evictions beyond government housing through the end of the year. I understand your opposition to Trump but you can't just deny him credit because you don't like him. And really, the real criticism is that Trumps order doesn't go far enough because even if people aren't being evicted the rents remain owed. That's the critique. Not saying he didn't pass anything because that's simply not true. 

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/personal-finance/trumps-eviction-moratorium-aims-to-protect-renters-but-evictions-continue/

 

What Bill Clinton did had nothing to do with Hillary. We aren’t living in the 50s, although Trump thinks we should be.

 

Banks loaned people money because housing has always been a sure thing. In the past, house values would rise enough counteract foreclosures. The banks were balled out to keep us from going into a depression. 

 

Detailed plan: https://joebiden.com/covid-plan/

 

There full rent/mortgage will be due the second this ends. That’s not a help for people who are unemployed or hours/income have been drastically reduced. Trump doesn’t care about anyone but himself and he has never had to worry about money a day in his life. That’s drastically opposite of Biden.

[HorusRa2 5,005]

7 minutes ago, Whispering said:

What Bill Clinton did had nothing to do with Hillary. We aren’t living in the 50s, although Trump thinks we should be.

 

Banks loaned people money because housing has always been a sure thing. In the past, house values would rise enough counteract foreclosures. The banks were balled out to keep us from going into a depression. 

 

Detailed plan: https://joebiden.com/covid-plan/

 

There full rent/mortgage will be due the second this ends. That’s not a help for people who are unemployed or hours/income have been drastically reduced. Trump doesn’t care about anyone but himself and he has never had to worry about money a day in his life. That’s drastically opposite of Biden.

As first lady, Hillary touted NAFTA as a good thing and had to back track when she became a senator. So while Bill signed the bill, it's a well known fact that she supported the policy at the time and touted it in campaign stops. I don't think that it's too critical to point that out even though she isn't responsible for it actually passing.

Bailing out the banks wasn't the only option or way to go about it. And the effects of who they decided to not bailout exacerbated the wealth inequality we now have today. 

okay. no further comment on covid plan except that maybe Biden should focus more on the economics of his plan and less of the dealing with the virus part of the plan in interviews and public settings.

Im aware of the fact that the amts not paid will be due but it is unfair to say trump didn't do anything. sure, what he did just pushed the problems that will inevitably come to the end of the year with no plan to help those who will have no way to pay the rents owed but they aren't homeless as of today. That's something even if it's very clearly not enough. 

[monster4life231 4,304]

On 9/23/2020 at 2:45 PM, JusKeepBreathin said:

I'm happy about his. This will get Democrats to the polls. I just received my application for a my mail in ballot yesterday. 

Judging by this poll Biden really needs to amp up blaming Trump for our economy being in shambles right now. 

Trump is winning these states purely based on the economy. 

Also Trump's ads are blatant lies.

Every ad has Biden raising taxes. Like every single ad. There is one ad that I can't find that runs in every commercial break here in Miami, I'm not sure about the rest of FL that uses a part of Biden himself saying that if you vote for him he will raise taxes. But it's an edit. He is talking about the wealthy, capital gains tax and closing loop holes for corporate taxes. 

I am very much to the left of Biden, but we have a similar problem here in the UK. The main attack on the UK's centre left party Labour is "they will raise taxes". Yes, Labour do support raising taxes, for the top 5% of earners and also having tax reforms through closing similar loopholes that exist the USA. Of course, they use this attack line to suggest that everybody will have a tax raise regardless of their income, which is simply untrue. It's quite annoying.

[Twitter 14]

There’s a lot of racists in Florida and Arizona so that makes sense.

[Lion Heart 15,041]

Saw this