Churchill statue defaced, Edward Calston statue pulled down

[Harry 26,836]

16 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

You can protest at any time. It can wait until this is over. It's not going to lose its chance because you held out for a month or two. Discrimination doesn't get worse because you could have protested that teeny bit sooner. People are making it seem like there's a deadline or it's a set day you have to do it to have any effect. Just be realistic and realise it'll have an effect any time you do it.

No nuance or substance? I'm saying stuff in this thread with insight that no one else is! No one else is saying that masks don't help or that black people are more susceptible. And everyone's focusing more on the statues being pulled down than about officers acting within the law getting attacked and their innocent horses getting bikes rammed into them. If you paid any attention to the recent things I've been saying about race, you'd agree with me. I've repeatedly said recently that I support the protestors, I just don't think they should resort to looting, vandalism and violence and should make a difference in more organised ways.

Good God, I wasn't defending Cummings, wasn't that obvious? My point was that if people rightfully bashed a family of four for flouting rules by travelling too far then naturally, they'll be just as annoyed by all this beach goers over the last few months and will be annoyed at anyone flouting rules, not just protestors! And yeah, Boris is about the only one defending him. The Tory party and Tory voters even think he's full of it. That's my point - the Tories aren't letting one of their own have a free pass, so they're not as loyal to each other as you're making out.

But it can wait. Protesting can be done at any time. I do care, I'm just not the protesting type. I'm a staunch feminist and I've never even been to a feminist protest. I'm an introvert, I don't cope with big crowds. I even have trepidation going to Gaga concerts and prefer sitting. I just don't want violence on the streets for anyone or for the virus to be passed on. This is coming from a place of compassion, not disdain. You're so binary with your thinking. There's multiple reasons why someone can choose to do something, you know. And they can all be good as well. And I can upset about multiple things at once. Complexity - try it.

Get lost and that's me being diplomatic. I did blame the people on the beaches, multiple times. I've said over and over: I BLAME ANYONE FLOUTING LOCKDOWN RULES. Craig was just making it seem like literally everyone was flouting them and I pointed out that wasn't true. I'm not disapproving of any groups, you just think I am because you're determined to smear my name no matter what I say. I don't know why I bother trying to change your mind. You and your cronies who like all your hateful, untrue posts don't know s**t about or what I do offline. I laugh at how off the mark you are with who I really am. I know who I am, my loved ones know who I am, why should someone who makes uninformed opinions of me get me down?

Laughable, entitled, obnoxious and uneducated as always. Indeed - why bother? Why waste my time on the likes of you. Ignorance is a disease... so is white feminism. But yes, I’m the one with binary thinking. Lol. You can’t even begin to comprehend and counteract the simple points that people have made against you on this topic without making it about you... yes I have been paying attention. People make nuanced and compassionate arguments about the protests and the BLM movement and your response is essentially “BuT sOciAL diStANcInG!!!1!!” as if that’s the extent of this complex issue. Yawn. You don’t care cos it doesn’t affect you. Period. You’re constantly targeting marginalised communities with dense and uninformed views whilst under the guise of being a “leftist” and I am absolutely sick of it.

We know plenty about who you are “offline” - you spend a significant amount of time scoring sympathy points with your sob stories and anecdotes to distract from your bigotry. I could get into how what your “loved ones” think of you has absolutely no relevance here whatsoever. But I also don’t see why you brought it up in the first place. 

I don’t try and “smear your name” - in general I try and avoid you as much as possible because bigots tire me. Besides, it seems like you’ve done a decent enough job of smearing your name on your own this week. Glad others are beginning to see what I’ve seen for years.

[Harry 26,836]

8 minutes ago, Saint Laurent said:

Who knows how many more innocent black lives would be stolen due to racism if this would have, like you're suggesting it should have, waited a couple of months (or even years, by the way, given current scientific opinion on the how long the effects of COVID-19 are likely to last).

An innocent black man is murdered by police, and people should wait to protest out of fear? What sort of message would that send.

Shame on you.

Whether you approve of it or not, this movement is sending crashing waves through the infrastructure of our countries, which is rooted in racism and white supremacy and that is a very positive thing.

Thank you. This movement is absolutely unprecedented. We haven’t seen it like this for any of the other tragedies in recent years. People are tired. Voices are finally starting to be heard but StrawberryBlond would rather they stay home and silence themselves for a few more years and simply allow the murder and brutality to continue... it’s almost like she doesn’t understand - or perhaps even care?

[Serial Chiller 8,044]

6 hours ago, Cookies said:

they're not the superior people. sure, they WERE, but history is history. I wouldn't even want a statue of Hitler taken down. history shows trial and error, and though it is controversial, it's still beautiful to look at how far we've come

Go to museums if you want to learn about history. Public statues are to glorify people, not record history. Same damn reason why there’s no statue of Hitler. Grow up. 

[StarstruckIllusion 53,564]

6 hours ago, Cookies said:

it's just my opinion, smh. I cherish history, good and bad

Then put them in a museum.

The way it was requested for that statue to be put safely in a museum so it can stop being glorified hundreds of times and it was still ignored. 

In America, we applaud this. These statues were put up bc racists wanted to scare black people away from voting, and were like “dw we still hate you and want you dead sksks.”

This is what you’re defending. 

[StarstruckIllusion 53,564]

Excellent factual video with unknown history supporting this:

 

[Grim 2,266]

6 hours ago, Cookies said:

erasing history won't erase racism.

Don't worry, statues aren't the only way to educate people on history

There are millions of people in history that haven't got own statue but that doesn't make their story less valuable

[OMonster 15,025]

Totally understand (and in theory, agree with) the sentiment here - but it is not sensible to apply modern values (and modern consensus) to historical periods and figures. 

If Churchill hadn't been the UK PM during WW2, the entire fate of the world right now could be very, very different. This man, along with America, ended Hitler. He saved millions of lives. He saved the future of the free world. He, to put it simply, is one of the reasons why we can can protest for freedom. 

(and yes, they might be freedoms he historically inhibited - but his actions now allow us, decades later, to rightuflly challenge his views)

None of these facts, of course, justify his racism. But it does mean, surely, that he has earned his place in history and has every right to be remembered in the city he saved. We can add to and explore and criticise Churchill. But we cannot discredit his every contribution to modern society. 

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

1 hour ago, StrawberryBlond said:

You can protest at any time. It can wait until this is over. It's not going to lose its chance because you held out for a month or two. Discrimination doesn't get worse because you could have protested that teeny bit sooner. People are making it seem like there's a deadline or it's a set day you have to do it to have any effect. Just be realistic and realise it'll have an effect any time you do it.

No nuance or substance? I'm saying stuff in this thread with insight that no one else is! No one else is saying that masks don't help or that black people are more susceptible. And everyone's focusing more on the statues being pulled down than about officers acting within the law getting attacked and their innocent horses getting bikes rammed into them. If you paid any attention to the recent things I've been saying about race, you'd agree with me. I've repeatedly said recently that I support the protestors, I just don't think they should resort to looting, vandalism and violence and should make a difference in more organised ways.

Good God, I wasn't defending Cummings, wasn't that obvious? My point was that if people rightfully bashed a family of four for flouting rules by travelling too far then naturally, they'll be just as annoyed by all this beach goers over the last few months and will be annoyed at anyone flouting rules, not just protestors! And yeah, Boris is about the only one defending him. The Tory party and Tory voters even think he's full of it. That's my point - the Tories aren't letting one of their own have a free pass, so they're not as loyal to each other as you're making out.

But it can wait. Protesting can be done at any time. I do care, I'm just not the protesting type. I'm a staunch feminist and I've never even been to a feminist protest. I'm an introvert, I don't cope with big crowds. I even have trepidation going to Gaga concerts and prefer sitting. I just don't want violence on the streets for anyone or for the virus to be passed on. This is coming from a place of compassion, not disdain. You're so binary with your thinking. There's multiple reasons why someone can choose to do something, you know. And they can all be good as well. And I can upset about multiple things at once. Complexity - try it.

Get lost and that's me being diplomatic. I did blame the people on the beaches, multiple times. I've said over and over: I BLAME ANYONE FLOUTING LOCKDOWN RULES. Craig was just making it seem like literally everyone was flouting them and I pointed out that wasn't true. I'm not disapproving of any groups, you just think I am because you're determined to smear my name no matter what I say. I don't know why I bother trying to change your mind. You and your cronies who like all your hateful, untrue posts don't know s**t about or what I do offline. I laugh at how off the mark you are with who I really am. I know who I am, my loved ones know who I am, why should someone who makes uninformed opinions of me get me down?

They were. Not the entire 66m population of the UK, but a vast majority of them. And I posted "receipts". 

[alice911 536]

As someone said... these racist people should not have public statues. If u love history so much put them in a museum or smth where no one will go anyway other than your 50 yr old racist white aunt who is a sociology or a history teacher. 🙏

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

3 minutes ago, alice911 said:

As someone said... these racist people should not have public statues. If u love history so much put them in a museum or smth where no one will go anyway other than your 50 yr old racist white aunt who is a sociology or a history teacher. 🙏

Exactly... but I'd rather have them out of public viewing.

[StrawberryBlond 15,564]

59 minutes ago, Harry said:

Laughable, entitled, obnoxious and uneducated as always. Indeed - why bother? Why waste my time on the likes of you. Ignorance is a disease... so is white feminism. But yes, I’m the one with binary thinking. Lol. You can’t even begin to comprehend and counteract the simple points that people have made against you on this topic without making it about you... yes I have been paying attention. People make nuanced and compassionate arguments about the protests and the BLM movement and your response is essentially “BuT sOciAL diStANcInG!!!1!!” as if that’s the extent of this complex issue. Yawn. You don’t care cos it doesn’t affect you. Period. You’re constantly targeting marginalised communities with dense and uninformed views whilst under the guise of being a “leftist” and I am absolutely sick of it.

We know plenty about who you are “offline” - you spend a significant amount of time scoring sympathy points with your sob stories and anecdotes to distract from your bigotry. I could get into how what your “loved ones” think of you has absolutely no relevance here whatsoever. But I also don’t see why you brought it up in the first place. 

I don’t try and “smear your name” - in general I try and avoid you as much as possible because bigots tire me. Besides, it seems like you’ve done a decent enough job of smearing your name on your own this week. Glad others are beginning to see what I’ve seen for years.

You just see what you want to see. You'll never see my point of view, you're that biased. People were all about respecting social distancing until now. It never stops being a pertinent issue no matter what's going on. That's the only reason that I'm saying people shouldn't protest. Speculate all you want with whatever made-up reasons you want. You can't prove what's going on in my head.

I don't say this stuff to distract from my "bigotry." I bring it up because you incorrectly tell falsehoods about me. I'm one of the nicest people you'll ever meet. It's a shame that you'll never see or appreciate that. People in real life know me better than anyone online and my true self comes off there. Online, everyone wants to argue, so everything's amplified. It doesn't matter how many times I try to convince you I'm a good person, you just want me to be the villain no matter what.

But you always quote me whenever you want to argue. You sure follow me around for someone who couldn't care less. Actually, I got a lot of support this last week as well, of course you conveniently fail to notice that. Luckily, my real friends here see the real me, they took the time to get to know me, unlike you, and they say that I shouldn't waste my time on people trying to bring me down. I care what others think of me too much, I guess. I just speak my truth and I've been nothing but honest. Contrary to what you may think, I'm not fake. If I were truly racist, you'd know and I wouldn't be here, considering this forum is against everything racists stand for. Do you really think racists hang around on Gaga forums day and night for the last decade? I've long decided it doesn't matter what I say to try to convince you, though, nothing will work. And you can't see how I respond to race in day-to-day life, so your accusations have always been without proof.

55 minutes ago, Harry said:

Thank you. This movement is absolutely unprecedented. We haven’t seen it like this for any of the other tragedies in recent years. People are tired. Voices are finally starting to be heard but StrawberryBlond would rather they stay home and silence themselves for a few more years and simply allow the murder and brutality to continue... it’s almost like she doesn’t understand - or perhaps even care?

I didn't say a few more years, just until the virus is over. Murder and brutality would continue whether they were protesting or not, it'll always be there. Again, let's be realistic. Prejudice never stops, not as long as humans have free will. It's just about alleviating it. You're acting is if we can literally stop it with protests. Humanity will never be a utopia. I show care by not wanting people to get hurt. Pacifism is a crime now, apparently.

Just now, xoxo Craig said:

They were. Not the entire 66m population of the UK, but a vast majority of them. And I posted "receipts". 

I never denied that. I said I blamed them too. I'm on your side. What are you not understanding.

[AlwaysLoveGaga 4,297]

7 hours ago, Cookies said:

tearing down a statue won't erase racism, but it will send a message that we do not idolize it and that we will not tolerate it.

Fixed

[shame 25,360]

2 minutes ago, StrawberryBlond said:

Prejudice never stops, not as long as humans have free will. It's just about alleviating it. You're acting is if we can literally stop it with protests. Humanity will never be a utopia. I show care by not wanting people to get hurt. Pacifism is a crime now, apparently.

the problem right now is that there are statutes, legal systems and other institutional structures that were created based on those prejudices and must be dismantled. the protests do not aspire to eradicate prejudice and racism, no one would believe that would work. but for progress to be made, there must be pressure on those in power who can facilitate societal change.

[xoxo Craig 55,649]

1 minute ago, shame said:

the problem right now is that there are statutes, legal systems and other institutional structures that were created based on those prejudices and must be dismantled. the protests do not aspire to eradicate prejudice and racism, no one would believe that would work. but for progress to be made, there must be pressure on those in power who can facilitate societal change.

Exactly... for racism to be eradicated, so too must the statues and institutional systems/legal systems that are a direct representation (and enforcement) of racism

[StrawberryBlond 15,564]

3 minutes ago, shame said:

the problem right now is that there are statutes, legal systems and other institutional structures that were created based on those prejudices and must be dismantled. the protests do not aspire to eradicate prejudice and racism, no one would believe that would work. but for progress to be made, there must be pressure on those in power who can facilitate societal change.

And I didn't say they shouldn't. I'm just saying protestors don't have to resort to vandalism and shouldn't be protesting while a pandemic is going on.